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Thread: Requesting some Insight

  1. #1

    Default Requesting some Insight

    I placed this at the end of another thread.. but I guess it got over looked.. and I think it could be address in a new one

    Oh Great Togan-san

    You have given this grasshopper so much to conjure. I am humbled in your presences
    Items 1,2 I know..
    So I think

    items 3,4,5 Have always baffled me .. Trying to understand how the cursor works in the game ..just has never set in.. I have tried to figure this out time and time again..both is STW and MTW and alas this tiny brain just can't figure it out.. SO whats the trick???

    Items 6 got that down so I think..LOL
    Item 7 relates back to 3,4,5

    Items 8,9,10,11,12 I understand..

    As to breaking Morale..yeah that seems logical.. But what gets me.. is that weapons and armor don't really seem to have any effect.. and that just doesn't make sense.. cuz If I have a 50 caliber gun and a flack jacket so to speak with little or no moral and you have lots of moral and only a .22 cal gun and no flack jacket.. I sure do see you being a dead person on the battle field why that logic doesn't apply here just click.. Where does this break down and why it not work??

    Any guidance the great toga-san can give would be greatly appreciated from this humble servant.

    Thanx

  2. #2

    Default Re: Requesting some Insight

    If you wish to ask a specific question of someone you can always pm them. Or perhaps bump the thread? Anyway, this post doesn't mean much out of consequence, could you explain what all the numbers are?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Requesting some Insight

    Duhh Stupid me...LOL here is the prevoius statements what was I thinking

    There are some basic things that can really accelerate your online success. Here are my quick dozen:

    1. knowing the effective honor and upgrade ranges for the various units
    2. knowing good combinations of 16 units to take for various scenarios (attack, defense, flat, hilly, foresty, 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, clear, rainy, cold/snowy etc.)
    3. knowing how to move your entire army while maintaining army formation
    4. knowing how to rotate your entire army while maintaining army formation
    5. knowing the best unit formations for the various unit types (number of rows deep, etc.)
    6. knowing when to use Wedge, Wide, and Hold formations, and Hold Position (and especially--when not to)
    7. knowing when to move as an army, when to move in groups, and when to move individual units--and developing the control skills to do any of these as needed
    8. getting the most out of your ranged units before attacking in full
    9. protecting your ranged units from cavalry raids
    10. using your cavalry for maximum effect while minimizing casualties
    11. always trying to apply Rock-Paper-Scissors when matching up units in combat
    12. flanking and rear-attacking whenever possible, and flanking and rear-attacking when ever possible, and flanking and rear-attacking whenever possible ...

    The most successful players win by breaking enemy morale, not by breaking an enemy army with might. As all have the same amount of koku to spend, the latter is quite diffcult to do anyway, unless a player doesn't really know how to pick an effective army.

    ***

    I and other players are ready and willing to share what we know with those who are interested and who ask. Drisos I know will be happy to share what he has learned. He has gone from Spring green to Summer seasoned in a very short period of time because he asked, listened, practiced, and experimented, with enthusiasm and diligence. It won't be long before he terrorizes us all on the battlefield, I'm sure.

    TogakureOjonin

  4. #4

    Default Re: Requesting some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by Airwreck
    1. knowing the effective honor and upgrade ranges for the various units
    2. knowing good combinations of 16 units to take for various scenarios (attack, defense, flat, hilly, foresty, 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, clear, rainy, cold/snowy etc.)

    Items 1,2 I know..
    So I think
    So you think

    I looked at the logfile from the game we almost played but ended up in a drop...and your army was...how shall I say this nicely...piss poor, godawful, terrible.

    If you look at the cost of upgrades, level one weapon upgrade costs 40% of base cost, level one honor upgrade costs 40% of base cost, and level one armor upgrade costs 60% of base cost. Since the honor upgrade is more than twice as good as either of these it is a very bad idea to bring units at Honor 2 weapon 1 armor 1 like you were. Hon2w1a1 costs the same as hon4 and has 1 less attack point 1 less defense point and 4 less morale.

    I would recommend:

    Yari sam: No less than honor 6, preferably something like hon6w1-2. I have before brought hon7w2. Bring at least 4 as these are the best h2h units in the game.

    Monks: These don't upgrade well and ND become more powerful.

    No-dachi: Honor 5. I don't believe the weapon upgrade is worth the cost.

    Nag cav: honor 3 or 4.

    Muskets: Honor 2.

    Achers and cav archers: hon 0.

    Heavy cav, ninja, kensai, naginata, yari cav: Not very useful.

    Ashis: banned.



    3. knowing how to move your entire army while maintaining army formation
    4. knowing how to rotate your entire army while maintaining army formation
    5. knowing the best unit formations for the various unit types (number of rows deep, etc.)

    7. knowing when to move as an army, when to move in groups, and when to move individual units--and developing the control skills to do any of these as needed
    Ok...I'm a tad rusty on this...it's been a while. To move the army as a group you need to make it into a single group by selecting all (ctrl-a) and grouping (g). Then if you ctrl-rightclick on a spot your army will rotate to face that spot, and if you control left click it will move to that spot maintaining facing. This is generally useful on ironing board especiall in 2v2. On most other maps I just click and drag, personal preference.

    [/QUOTE]


    As to breaking Morale..yeah that seems logical.. But what gets me.. is that weapons and armor don't really seem to have any effect.. and that just doesn't make sense.. cuz If I have a 50 caliber gun and a flack jacket so to speak with little or no moral and you have lots of moral and only a .22 cal gun and no flack jacket.. I sure do see you being a dead person on the battle field why that logic doesn't apply here just click.. Where does this break down and why it not work??
    Weapons and armor do not come with an inherant morale boost. But the armor means less men will be killed which helps keep up morale, and the weapon kills more of the enemy which helps keep up morale. The difference with upgrades is not as big as the scenario you describe, and anyway there is no way to tell if the enemy units have improved weapons and armor.

  5. #5
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Requesting some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    I would recommend:

    Yari sam: No less than honor 6, preferably something like hon6w1-2. I have before brought hon7w2. Bring at least 4 as these are the best h2h units in the game.

    Monks: These don't upgrade well and ND become more powerful.

    No-dachi: Honor 5. I don't believe the weapon upgrade is worth the cost.

    Nag cav: honor 3 or 4.

    Muskets: Honor 2.

    Achers and cav archers: hon 0.

    Heavy cav, ninja, kensai, naginata, yari cav: Not very useful.

    Ashis: banned.
    TogakureOJonin, have you read this? Might be helpful for your next battle?
    With the 4 unit max rule in v1.02 these days you almost know sasaki's army!

    Let me guess:

    4 musks
    4 YS
    2 ND
    6 monks/nag cav/inf archers/cav archers

    right, mimesaka?

    I agree on battlefield ninja's and naginata now being useful at all. But kensai, heavy cav and yari cav can be useful in some occasions, in my eyes. Though I only once used a kensai and rarely take yari cav.

    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  6. #6

    Default Re: Requesting some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by drisos
    T
    With the 4 unit max rule in v1.02 these days you almost know sasaki's army!

    Let me guess:

    4 musks
    4 YS
    2 ND
    6 monks/nag cav/inf archers/cav archers

    right, mimesaka?
    Was that army, singular?

    Close enough to an army I bring from time to time, except for the monks. But with logreaders armies are no secret anyhow.


    I agree on battlefield ninja's and naginata now being useful at all. But kensai, heavy cav and yari cav can be useful in some occasions, in my eyes. Though I only once used a kensai and rarely take yari cav.
    I don't find any of them useful enough to be a regular addition.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Requesting some Insight

    I disagree with you, Sasaki, about the usefulness of Yari Cavalry.
    I've found them to be quite damn good and versatile too.
    They're fast, great vs cavalry and great flankers.
    Also depending on the role you want to use them in you can use them with a varying amount of honour from h1 to h5. (I usually use h3 myself)
    In my opinion they compliment a force of Nag Cav and Cav Arch quite nicely and when used properly can be quite a decisive force in cavalry battles.
    Friendship, Fun & Honour!

    "The Prussian army always attacks."
    -Frederick the Great

  8. #8
    zzZZZz Member PaolinoPaperino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Requesting some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by drisos
    With the 4 unit max rule in v1.02 these days you almost know sasaki's army!
    In fact you can say that almost all armyes in 1.02 are a slight modification from a hard core army. There are than few additional units chosed from personal preferences/terrain/opponet/supposed weather/tactic.... general's mood, etc..
    Boring uh?
    Dunno if a single yari cav would do a great difference Duck, if you waste koku in upgrading units as Mime described. Under a strategical point of view, if you have a tactic requiring a unit with a peculiar ability to be exploited, than it's usefull to pick it from the list of available units... but as Mime said: it's not enough to become a regular addition(ie: not everybody has the necessary skill level to handle the tactic you described).
    Last edited by PaolinoPaperino; 06-24-2005 at 00:01. Reason: mistake
    Paperi si nasce

  9. #9
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: Requesting some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    So you think

    I looked at the logfile from the game we almost played but ended up in a drop...and your army was...how shall I say this nicely...piss poor, godawful, terrible ... .
    LOLOL!!! "So you think ..." is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I read this response, and brought back fond memories of having just started playing STW MP and believing the same thing. It's the very reason why I put these at the top of the list--many SP players come to MP thinking what they do in SP will work well in MP--NOT!! Experienced human players put the AI to shame, and then some. That's why I advised talking to them, listening with an open mind, trying what they suggest, and then evolving their ideas into ones that work best for you.

    Airwreck, I apologize for not responding sooner m8. I have been exceptionally busy and haven't been able to check this board for a while. Know this though: you won't likely find a better advisor than Sasaki--he just doesn't advise often. When he does--listen! Most of what I put out here is stuff I've learned from him and several other very talented MP players (AggonyBetou, AggonyShimazu, Wolf Kansuke, and AllFriendAnskar, to name a few). There is a wealth of information in these threads, so read up. If you have specific questions, feel free to PM as Sasaki has suggested. If you want to meet for games and coaching sometime, again, PM me and we can make arrangements (though I am very busy atm, I should clear in a week or so).

    LOLOL Drisos!! Sasaki has been a study in pain and frustration for me for almost two years now!! I have played him in dozens of 1v1s (losing the great majority of them), studied his vast collection of armies with log readers, watched replays of him kicking my arse, and picked his brain for tips constantly. I've argued with him, buttered him up, and run off pouting for weeks after getting pounded again and Again and AGAIN! Winning two games against him in a day are a cause for major celebration here . Seriously, if you want to study a player, he would be my recommendation. His style of educating is different from mine--he tends to demonstrate good technique, and advises only occasionally. If you ask a direct question you will usually get a direct answer. My method is to put as much information out here as I can to help new players who who heed it. It's my way of giving back what I received when I was new.
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


    misc kanryodo

  10. #10
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Requesting some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin
    Sasaki has been a study in pain and frustration for me for almost two years now!! I have played him in dozens of 1v1s (losing the great majority of them), studied his vast collection of armies with log readers, watched replays of him kicking my arse, and picked his brain for tips constantly. I've argued with him, buttered him up, and run off pouting for weeks after getting pounded again and Again and AGAIN! Winning two games against him in a day are a cause for major celebration here . Seriously, if you want to study a player, he would be my recommendation. His style of educating is different from mine--he tends to demonstrate good technique, and advises only occasionally. If you ask a direct question you will usually get a direct answer.
    Studying . . .

    Well, Sasaki, would you like to do some games with me? And maybe answer some questions. Please ... Please
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

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