Dissapointment

**The Wizard** · 06-24-2005, 15:53

No noticably ahistorical units indeed -- but let's not spark up the mod vs mod debate here, lest we try Catiline's patience for once ;]

It's quite simple really, the explanation. You put an outdated AI into a totally new environment and it will flounder and fail horribly. Add to that horrible balance issues regarding such things as cavalry and you get not only a campaign map full of new features that don't work, but also a completely inaccurate tactical system.

~Wiz

**Mongoose** · 06-24-2005, 15:59

I was being too harsh, the mod is alot better then vanilla. I just think it would benefit alot from a little playtesting.

What really does not help is people over at TWC screaming "RELEASE IT NOW!"

**ChaosLord** · 06-24-2005, 16:21

Its alot easier to win defensive battles Umeu 1, you pick your ground and can force the AI to attack where you want. And its 10x, maybe even 100x easier to win a defensive bridge battle. I can see why playing like that would mean you get little or no challenges. You should try being the attacker more often, or trying to attack rather then defend a bridge.

**Mongoose** · 06-24-2005, 16:23

Well, that is hardly cheating. It's like saying "you should not flank the AI, it makes the game harder"

Just my 2 cents.

**CMcMahon** · 06-24-2005, 16:24

Defending bridges is insanely easy.

You can take out 20 gold/gold/gold cataphracts easy with just three stacked gold/gold/gold silver shield pikemen (maybe even just two), simply because they'll just run right into your pikes everytime, and suicide.

**The Stranger** · 06-24-2005, 19:29

Originally Posted by CMcMahon

Defending bridges is insanely easy.

You can take out 20 gold/gold/gold cataphracts easy with just three stacked gold/gold/gold silver shield pikemen (maybe even just two), simply because they'll just run right into your pikes everytime, and suicide.

you prolly could, but i'm fending of 6000 medium trained men, with 800 freaking sparabara. damn eastern levies, this is not good. when i should get a fight, i should be sitting on the point of my chair with my tonque out my mouth. but i cant, most time i save the game and close the pc, cuz its just another heroic victory

**Puzz3D** · 06-24-2005, 20:28

I was having a fairly interesting campaign using the SPRQ mod and no walls on cites except for the 8 major cities until this happened. I was defending an important bridge which the Gauls had tried to take several times. Each time they attacked they used a bigger army which was an intelligent thing to do. Finally, they attacked with 2 armies and a total of 3600 men. I had 800 men at the bridge, and another 600 coming up as reinforcements. The largest Gaul army of about 2000 men attacked across the bridge. In SPQR, the fighting lasts a long time so this pinned the 800 defenders at the bridge. The smaller Gaul army of 1600 found a ford upstream and came across and flanked the defenders at the bridge. My reinforments couldn't get there in time to block the second army. I ended up loosing what was easily the best battle I ever had against the AI. The Gauls had lost about 2600 men and I lost over 1000 men.

Now the problem is that back on the strategy map the Gauls abandoned the bridge that they had fought so hard to take. So, I reoccupied the bridge, and the Gauls are too weak to make another major attack anytime soon. I can bleed the Gauls dry playing like this. At least in STW and MTW where the map was province based, the AI occupied the territory it won. If you lost a bridge province in those games it was tough to take it back especially in STW. So, right after the best battle I ever fought in RTW, I didn't feel like playing the game anymore.

There was one other problem I noticed when fighting battles in city streets which you do a lot with no walls. The AI would send 1000 men up a street and I would block them with a few units. The AI's men would all be buzzing around like mad hornets incuring the "fighting" fatigue rate eventhough only the men in the front rows were actually fighting. Since fighting takes a long time in SPQR, the AI's men would all become exhausted and run away. This is a problem caused by slowing down the rate of combat when you cannot also reduce the fatigue rate due to fighting, and because the game considers all these stacked up units in the streets as actually fighting.

**PseRamesses** · 06-25-2005, 11:08

Originally Posted by Puzz3D

There was one other problem I noticed when fighting battles in city streets which you do a lot with no walls. The AI would send 1000 men up a street and I would block them with a few units. The AI's men would all be buzzing around like mad hornets incuring the "fighting" fatigue rate eventhough only the men in the front rows were actually fighting. Since fighting takes a long time in SPQR, the AI's men would all become exhausted and run away. This is a problem caused by slowing down the rate of combat when you cannot also reduce the fatigue rate due to fighting, and because the game considers all these stacked up units in the streets as actually fighting.

How hard would it have been for the devs to do a decent defence script? Can you emagine the probs you´d be facing when assaulting a city if the def´s acted relatively normal? Just think about it. Streets packed with def hoplites, holding pos, backed up by missiles at every corner and maybee also harassing cavs that flanks you. I´m not shure many of us would win that kind of scn easily. This is what I feel a STW-game would have been liked if first released today.
Ex: If the AI was scripted correctly to realise the whole picture Germania would really be a hard nut to crack. Just def all rivercrossings and with an ambush feat that REALLY works they would easily def their lands. Instead they run around in small bands abandoning river crossing, that would´ve been easily def with 4-5 units, and succumb to any invader.
Ex: Have you ever seen the Greeks survive? They hold on to Scicily pretty good (in RTR) but doesn´t know how to cut losses and the result is small bands of hoplites that runs effortsly around trying to def everything.
Ex: Same thing with the Seleucids, hammered from all sides, first and foremost by Parthia and Ptolemy. Now the Parth´s miss cavs can NOT be chased down with hoplites in formation so why even try? But the AI does it over and over and over.... Do they ever learn? Do they ever produce Podromois, which is the only way to beat the Parth´s No, never!
Ex: Facing the Carthaginians, have you ever see them exploit their major strenght - cavalry? I haven´t. They actually charges right into a def line time and time again and simply routes. That combined with a very poor inf (at early) makes the Carth´s a snack foe even the Iberians - what the hell?
We could easily make this list a mile long and shure the threads on this topic are numerous but what I find alarming is the absence of CA adressing the issue, responding to critism and actually try and do some thing. This is not a Total War game, its a Total Slaughter game!

**The Stranger** · 06-24-2005, 19:26

Originally Posted by ChaosLord

Its alot easier to win defensive battles Umeu 1, you pick your ground and can force the AI to attack where you want. And its 10x, maybe even 100x easier to win a defensive bridge battle. I can see why playing like that would mean you get little or no challenges. You should try being the attacker more often, or trying to attack rather then defend a bridge.

i know it's easy but i isnt supposed to be this easy. i mean when i'm attacking i loose 100-500 men, and still win easy. and winning a bridge battle is indeed easier, but in MTW it was atleast an challenge. and it doesnt matter cuz if youve read my post, i'm playing rebels, my strongest unit is a hoplite. and the bridge i was talking about was defended by forsaken SPARABARA. 2 morale 3 attack 5 defence. i'm fightin phalangites and companions wat ta fak. i'm supposed to loose horrible.

i cant attack in this campaign cuz my strongest attack units are HASTATI. i cant beat equal sized armies cuz i'm no match when attacking with those units