What is a Jew

[Pindar]

In another thread while helping bmolsson correct some confused thinking the question of Jewish status came up. The question basically became: what is a Jew? Now this is an old and seemingly complex question. One traditional answer is: a Jew is any who is born to a Jewish mother. This of course begs the question: not explaining why the mother is Jewish save to repeat the stated refrain. Many have seen being a Jew as a racial question. The difficulty here, aside from race itself being problematic, is there are so many 'racial' groups that identify as Jewish. There are White European Jews, Brown Arab Jews, Black Ethiopian Jews, Yellow Asian Jews etc. Some label Jewishness as cultural. This again faces the difficulty of there being multiple "Jew" cultures: Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, Temani are some of the standard divisions though there are other more exotic varieties. Many of the stated views assume the label Jew is a fixed position: once a Jew always a Jew, regardless of the person's joining or aligning with any other category. I believe this is a flawed notion.

It is certainly the case that many discriminated minorities often begin to identify with the rhetoric of their oppressors. I think this is one of the reasons some of the above ideas have parlance even within the self labeled Jewish community. So, what is a Jew? I believe a Jew is someone who identifies with Judaism. It is therefore a religious category. Should a fellow decide to convert to Judaism they are then a Jew. Should a Jew decide to join another faith, say Catholicism the person is then a Catholic and no longer a Jew. From this perspective there is no such thing as a atheist-Jew, or Christian-Jew or Muslim-Jew any more then there could be a Christian-Muslim.

I am interested in others' thoughts.

[Don Corleone]

I agree with the religious aspect of it (all followers of the covenant of Abraham, regardless of their ancestry would be Jews).

However, you should note that in religious Judaism, there are three major sects: Reform, Conservative & Orthodox (as well as many minor ones, such as Hasidim). I'm not Jewish (but my savior is), but I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the more liberal a Jewish branch you convert to, the less likely it will be that you will be accepted by other Jews. If you convert to Reform, many Conservatives and all Orthodox will NOT view you as Jewish. If you convert to Conservative, many Orthodox will NOT. If you convert to Orthodox, you're as Jewish as Mel Brooks.

[Goofball]

Let me start by saying that I do not propose this as any kind of rational measuring stick, but I am curious: does anybody know how the Nazis viewed Jews who had converted to Christianity? There must have been some of them. Were they rounded up and sent to the camps, or were they considered good citizens of the Third Reich because they no longer adhered to Judiasm?

[Byzantine Prince]

Let me start by saying that I do not propose this as any kind of rational measuring stick, but I am curious: does anybody know how the Nazis viewed Jews who had converted to Christianity? There must have been some of them. Were they rounded up and sent to the camps, or were they considered good citizens of the Third Reich because they no longer adhered to Judiasm?

It was more of an ethnic cleansing. They created anthropoligic theories that jews were inherently a lower race. The Nazis didn't even like their own church when it came to religious matters. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Yeah, the Nazis viewed "Jewish-Christians" as ethnic Jews, though their persecution may have started slightly later and originally with less violence. In the end, there was no difference.

Some of the [Catholic] churches originally only helped "Catholic Jews" but realized that wasn't so hot and started to help all Jews. And this is among the churches that did help.

[discovery1]

Let me start by saying that I do not propose this as any kind of rational measuring stick, but I am curious: does anybody know how the Nazis viewed Jews who had converted to Christianity? There must have been some of them. Were they rounded up and sent to the camps, or were they considered good citizens of the Third Reich because they no longer adhered to Judiasm?

I think they were killed too. The limit was I think 1/4 'Jewish'* if you wanted to live.

*in quotes b/c I don't think Jews are a race.

[Papewaio]

So, what is a Jew? I believe a Jew is someone who identifies with Judaism. It is therefore a religious category. Should a fellow decide to convert to Judaism they are then a Jew. Should a Jew decide to join another faith, say Catholicism the person is then a Catholic and no longer a Jew. From this perspective there is no such thing as a atheist-Jew, or Christian-Jew or Muslim-Jew any more then there could be a Christian-Muslim.

I am interested in others' thoughts.

One of my best friends is a Jew as is his parents. His parents expect him to marry a good Jewish girl.

However none of them are religous. They are all Atheists, which is a good thing considering my mate loves Hungry Jacks (Burger King with a different label, same company) Bacon Burgers. However he still sees himself as Jewish as his ethnic group.

Hes sees religion as an intellectual dishonesty and a crutch for the weak. However his best friend (and my brothers who introduced us) is a Buddhist (his father was the head of the Buddhist Society, not a monk obviously just the community organisation). Our other friend is the son of an Anglican minister. Another friend is a non-practicing Catholic (son of Catholic parents, but definitly not religious), another mate is a Sri Lankan Buddhist and a mix of the spectrum for the rest. (Made our D&D group interesting).

Much like a Chinese person outside of China still identifies themselves as Chinese ethnic and whatever country citizenship.

Much like Maori who may be 3/4's Pakeha. You still will be a Maori if that is the way of life you identify with.

So Jewish people have a triple definition. Genetics, Culture and Religion. You only have to belong to one of those and identify yourself as a Jew.

My main point is that Jewish people are an ethnic group and/or religion. You don't have to belong to both to be a Jew, nor does not belonging to one of the groups disqualify yourself.

[KukriKhan]

So Jewish people have a triple definition. Genetics, Culture and Religion. You only have to belong to one of those and identify yourself as a Jew.

That almost sounds (anthropolgically speaking) like a tribe that accepts some outsiders through trials and tests. So Jews are an extended tribe?

[Papewaio]

Of course, historically speaking to be a citizen you had to belong to the state religion. After a time culture, genetics and religion become the same.

[Pindar]

Let me start by saying that I do not propose this as any kind of rational measuring stick, but I am curious: does anybody know how the Nazis viewed Jews who had converted to Christianity?

Nazism saw Jews as a race religious affiliation didn't matter. This was tied up with the eugenics movements that were in vogue.

[bmolsson]

Nazism saw Jews as a race religious affiliation didn't matter. This was tied up with the eugenics movements that were in vogue.

Well, they did hate communists as well so I don't think they really based their views on any logic......

[bmolsson]

In another thread while helping bmolsson correct some confused thinking the question of Jewish status came up.

I believe it was/is the reversed. You deny the fact that jews are born in to their religion. Your fundamentalistic view on faith is not really in connection with the natural world......

[PanzerJaeger]

Ive always thought of Jews in much the same way the Nazis did - an ethnicity all their own, because they are so close nit and seem to be a community all their own. Of course I havent put much thought into it, and I suppose I agree with Pindar that Jews can only really be catagorized on religious grounds.

[caesar44]

well thank you !!!! in my worst nightmares i did not imagine my self saying that i am thinking like the nazis in any subject !
you should think again
from your name in this forum (panzer) i consider you are a german and it is very sad that you have not learned anything

[PanzerJaeger]

Ahh but if you read my post I have learned something from Pindar and have corrected my views on the subject.

[Don Corleone]

Caesar, relax.

The point of the thread is the amibiguity over whether "Jewishness" is an ethnicity, a culture or a religion. Panzer was just weighing in on that. Honestly, I think you'll find you don't have any stronger defenders for Israel or Judaism itself for that matter than PJ.

I still stick by my argument about the covenant of Abraham. I also want to elaborate that includes all Christians, because we are not a 'different' religion, but a messianic branch. Trust me, Paul, let alone Jesus, would correct us Gentiles in a heartbeat if they came back to speak to us.

[Papewaio]

Christian are the branches and Jews are the roots ...

[bmolsson]

Christian are the branches and Jews are the roots ...

Eh... And that would make the muslims the soil.....

[JAG]

And the whole tree rotten!

[bmolsson]

And the whole tree rotten!

Oh... Soon everyone will be soil.....

[JimBob]

Hmm...if you want a Jewish theologian's perspective check out To Life! by Harold Kushner. He is a Conservative Rabbi from Boston, in the book he says that Judaism is like, as KukriKhan asked, an extended tribe. An exercise he mentions is to list the twenty greatest Jews past century or two. Who comes to mind, Einstein, ect. Now list the temple they regularly attended, the thing is most didn't. But they were still Jewish. Anyway, good book for those wanting to know more about Judaism.

[Franconicus]

[QUOTE=Don Corleone]The point of the thread is the amibiguity over whether "Jewishness" is an ethnicity, a culture or a religion. QUOTE]
Right! And the answer is, they are everything and they are none.
Traditionally the religion and the people are just one. The Jewish God and the people are tied together. You cannot leave the club or become new member. So in the beginning ethic and religion were one.
Later non Jewish converted to the religion or Jewish stopped believing in their God. Even though this is something that Jewish fundamentalists never accept this created new categories: ethnis jews and religious jews. And today you have also the seperation of Jews living in Israel and Jews outside. So it is also a difference here.
Nazis did not care too much about the details. They defined Jews as a race (and were inline with Jewish fundamentalists). So they even killed people who did not even know that they were 'Jews', they were just Christian Germans. Some of them were high decorated officers fighting for Germany in WW1.


Well, they did hate communists as well so I don't think they really based their views on any logic......
There is a kind of insane logic. Many of the communists in Germany were Jewish.

[Efrem]

Well I consider myself an Australian who happens to have a jewish mother. So it ain't a race, its a religion with several distinct ethnic groups with in it.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Euhh?

What do you have to say to the many Jews who are not believers anymore? That they are not Jews even if they identify themselves so?

What's the point in picking one arbitrary definition over another? Those labels really matters?

What you point at is NOT a good definition of "Jew", it hints at the ambiguity of it... It's an ambiguity that Israel faces. Going for simplicity over ambiguity Pindar?

Louis,

[caesar44]

And the whole tree rotten!

over 10,000 post !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i am speechless
jews christians muslims hindu's shintu's who cares......

[caesar44]

now seriously - 1. any man had the right to define himself as he wish
2. there is something you all missed - judaism is not a religion and it is not a nationality and it is not an ethnic group , it is all combined !
jesus belonged to a semitic group , the hebrews , and so many of nowdays jews are if one , let say moses , converts from judaism he is still belonged ethnically to judaism because his ancestors were hebrews who lived in the times of jesus
jews had their own language , their own writing , names , common past etc'
in israel there is no separation between one's religion and nationality and because of that even jews in bangladesh or nigeria are considered as holding the same nationality as the jews in israel (nationality in a sense of "same blood")
judaism is not a missionaric religion just because the want to preserve its "original origin"
in the holly books of the jews is written - " israel although ... is always israel"

[InsaneApache]

This what I gleaned from going to a school that was about 25% Jewish.

Jews follow Judaism, a religion.

Hebrews are a race of Semites (Arabs)

Most Jews are Hebrew, but not all Hebrews are Jews.

that clear?

[Idaho]

It's an ethnicity with fairly rigid rules as to who is a member. My father is Jewish, but I am not. My grandfather is so Jewish that he can speak Yiddish and recite passages from the Torah. However he is a communist athiest :D

[Kaiser of Arabia]

And the whole tree rotten!

Wait, then where's Atheism? Is it that bush! Or that shrub! OR THAT *points at you*?!?!

[Fragony]

This what I gleaned from going to a school that was about 25% Jewish.

Jews follow Judaism, a religion.

Hebrews are a race of Semites (Arabs)

Most Jews are Hebrew, but not all Hebrews are Jews.

that clear?

Now it is, I thought it was the same thing.