What is a Jew

[bmolsson]

I think you've gotten confused on my basic position. I gave you a definition of religion. That definition did not include faith. Religion as a system is distinct from belief in that system. If someone allies themselves with a religious view, my position is that can only be meaningful if they actually believe in the religion they claim adherence to. Thus, a Christian is one who believes in Christianity (that Jesus is the Christ and savior of mankind), a Muslim is one who accepts the five Pillars of Islam (including the Shahada: there is no God, but Allah and Muhammad is His prophet), and a Jew is one who believes in the tenets of Judaism ( i.e. the Torah).

I am not confused at all. I just disagree with you.

Yes, the world is more secular, but this doesn't mean religion is secular. They are mutually exclusive positions. Note the way the word was defined when it first appeared in English in 1846: Secularism "doctrine that morality should be based on the well-being of man in the present life, without regard to religious belief or a hereafter".

I didn't say religion was secular. Further more, secularism is actually a view of tolerance. The need of a system without a power structure appointed by a deity, formulated secularism. You could argue that secularism is a product of modern nationbuilding with multiple societies integrated in the same society.
A secular society can be a theocracy, as long as the participation in the leading religion is not made mandatory.

So, you are saying there is a study where the world's Muslim community stated they didn't actually believe in Islam, but accepted the status "Muslim" because it was assigned them by their state? What is this study? Assuming such actually exists, Why would you consider this compelling? If a state passed a bill where everyone's favorite color was declared to be green and such was the case from birth does that mean everyone sees green as their favorite color? The point is that regardless of any legal action, it cannot reach to the heart of man. There are certain categories and labels that can only be applied by the subject.

No, I did say that there is a study of Indonesias muslim community, where a majority of the muslims don't believe in a deity. Islam is not equalled with the belief in the deity in this study.

In regards to your color example, it's exactly what I am trying to say. The society tells everyone at brith that the green color is the favorite, everyone is taught to believe so, but not all do actually agree with this. Since the favorite color is not of importance to them as individuals, they accept the fact and participate in the society anyway.

The heart of man is not what is the most important for most people. Food, family, the flock, etc are far more important for the individual to survive and live a good life than faith in a deity or a favorite color.

[Pindar]

In regards to your color example, it's exactly what I am trying to say. The society tells everyone at brith that the green color is the favorite, everyone is taught to believe so, but not all do actually agree with this. Since the favorite color is not of importance to them as individuals, they accept the fact and participate in the society anyway.

Let's work with this model. If under this situation the government tells person A their favorite color is Green and they actually claim Orange is their favorite: what is their favorite color? Who is right?

If person B is told green is their favorite color and they are indifferent, is green really their favorite color?

If person C is told green is their favorite color and they claim: "yes, green is my favorite color" is the final determination based on the government dicta or the person's statement?

The heart of man is not what is the most important for most people. Food, family, the flock, etc are far more important for the individual to survive and live a good life than faith in a deity or a favorite color.

It would seem that would depend on the person. Those who commit their lives to a cause may disagree. Those who die for a cause would seem to also disagree.

[bmolsson]

Let's work with this model. If under this situation the government tells person A their favorite color is Green and they actually claim Orange is their favorite: what is their favorite color? Who is right?

The government is right and they have the Patriot act to back it up.

If person B is told green is their favorite color and they are indifferent, is green really their favorite color?

Since they have a green T-shirt, they still belong to the team.

If person C is told green is their favorite color and they claim: "yes, green is my favorite color" is the final determination based on the government dicta or the person's statement?

They are patriotic, which is something good in societies based on religion.

It would seem that would depend on the person. Those who commit their lives to a cause may disagree. Those who die for a cause would seem to also disagree.

The people who disagree dies or goes to Gitmo, so they don't really count, do they......

[Pindar]

The government is right and they have the Patriot act to back it up.



Since they have a green T-shirt, they still belong to the team.



They are patriotic, which is something good in societies based on religion.



The people who disagree dies or goes to Gitmo, so they don't really count, do they......

You should have taken my post seriously. It would have helped you break free from your dogmatic chains.

[bmolsson]

You should have taken my post seriously. It would have helped you break free from your dogmatic chains.

I think that favorite colors as an analogy is not to take me seriously, hence the response.....