What is a Jew

[bmolsson]

jeez - talk about devolution of argumentative ability
what happened to the time when you argued rationally and listened to opposing opinions?

Raise your hand before you speak......

[bmolsson]

The imposition of civil duty doesn't compel a particular mental state. It does compel certain actions however.

Forced solidarity is a mental state which the evil state calls civil duty to make it sound better.
Actions are not enough, you are supposed to feel good when you do the duties as well. If you ever been drafted you would understand what I am saying.

If you want to argue that there are old texts that speak of Deity then we have no issue. This is certainly the case. If you want argue that those texts constitute a proof of God's existence then I would disagree. This is the central issue with trying to argue that a "social science" appeal can somehow bring a definitive result to the question of Deity.

I argue that the old texts prove that there are findings and sightings of the existance of something people in old times believe was a deity. The human behavior doesn't normally strife for a deity, hence the logic that something existed. Actually it doesn't prove that the assumed deity is a deity, but it is enough to build a theory on it.

Actually lots of people do research on Deity, just not the kind you hope for the reason being: it is not logically possible.

And how is that ?

Thanks for your understanding. I feel a little better knowing you care. Do I need to shave my head?

Why ? My faith always told me you where bald ???

[bmolsson]

bmolsson has transcended logic.

Being a deity is not always easy......

[ICantSpellDawg]

Raise your hand before you speak......

What does this mean?
Is this some sort of childish reference to my childishness?

[bmolsson]

What does this mean?
Is this some sort of childish reference to my childishness?

Congratulations !!! You won a cokie...

[Pindar]

Forced solidarity is a mental state which the evil state calls civil duty to make it sound better.
Actions are not enough, you are supposed to feel good when you do the duties as well. If you ever been drafted you would understand what I am saying.

There is nothing in the legal dicta of the U.S. or Indonesia I would wager that conflates civil duty with a required attitude. The IRS doesn't care if you like or dislike paying tax, as long as you do it.

I argue that the old texts prove that there are findings and sightings of the existance of something people in old times believe was a deity.

Why would you consider something written as a proof?

Are you arguing that belief equals existential reality meaning: I write about something then that something actually happened or exists?

The human behavior doesn't normally strife for a deity, hence the logic that something existed. Actually it doesn't prove that the assumed deity is a deity, but it is enough to build a theory on it.

Given that all cultures have been basically theistic this wouldn't seem to be the case. Atheism (with small exception) is a relatively new standard.

Posted by Pindar
Actually lots of people do research on Deity, just not the kind you hope for the reason being: it is not logically possible.

And how is that ?

Theologians, paranormals, shaman etc.

Why ? My faith always told me you where bald ???

Your faith couldn't see under my hat?

I'm a surfer, surfers can't be bald: it's against the rules.

[bmolsson]

There is nothing in the legal dicta of the U.S. or Indonesia I would wager that conflates civil duty with a required attitude. The IRS doesn't care if you like or dislike paying tax, as long as you do it.

If you believe that blowing up large buildings is a good idea, you will be detained immediately, even if you have not blown any buildings up. Isn't that correct ?

There are many crimes that is set on your mental state, before any actual actions has been taken by you. All in the interest of the safety of the society.

Why would you consider something written as a proof?

Are you arguing that belief equals existential reality meaning: I write about something then that something actually happened or exists?

Not at all. Let us take one example:

If you have 1,000 people eating a cake. You then ask them to tell you what it taste like. The majority answer "strawberry".
Would you consider that the cake taste "strawberry" ?

Now take the same group and ask them to pray. You then ask them to tell you if God answered their prayers. If the majority answered, yes, God answered my prayer.
Would you consider that God exist ?

Given that all cultures have been basically theistic this wouldn't seem to be the case. Atheism (with small exception) is a relatively new standard.

With very few exceptions, all cultures are built around a powerstructure with somebody raised above others. This includes secular cultures.

Theologians, paranormals, shaman etc.

Yep, there you have a point.

Your faith couldn't see under my hat?

I'm a surfer, surfers can't be bald: it's against the rules.

Why would you need hair when surfing the net..... Just say you have it...

[Pindar]

If you believe that blowing up large buildings is a good idea, you will be detained immediately, even if you have not blown any buildings up. Isn't that correct ?

Not in the U.S.

Not at all. Let us take one example:

If you have 1,000 people eating a cake. You then ask them to tell you what it taste like. The majority answer "strawberry".
Would you consider that the cake taste "strawberry" ?

Now take the same group and ask them to pray. You then ask them to tell you if God answered their prayers. If the majority answered, yes, God answered my prayer.
Would you consider that God exist ?

So, your argument is if a 1000 people write God answered their prayer then God exists?

Now if another 1000 write God didn't answer their prayer does God suddenly cease to exist?

bmolsson: The human behavior doesn't normally strife for a deity...

Posted by Pindar
Given that all cultures have been basically theistic this wouldn't seem to be the case. Atheism (with small exception) is a relatively new standard.



With very few exceptions, all cultures are built around a powerstructure with somebody raised above others. This includes secular cultures.

Your reply doesn't really answer my point. I assume you agree that theism has been a general cultural trait.

Why would you need hair when surfing the net..... Just say you have it...

I surf waves baby. Some of my atheist buddies have been to Indonesia on surf trips: never got arrested or barred from the country interestingly enough.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Your reply doesn't really answer my point. I assume you agree that theism has been a general cultural trait.

i have heard of only 1 organized tribal society on a tiny island in indonesia with absolutely no Deistic concept. i have been trying to find a link to information on this tribe, but i cannot

this leads me to believe that it is either right under my nose or the investigation into their origins didn't hold up and the researchers found evidence of a god concept

who knows
anyone have any links?

[bmolsson]

Not in the U.S.

I guess you are right. Gitmo is not a part of US.......

So, your argument is if a 1000 people write God answered their prayer then God exists?

Now if another 1000 write God didn't answer their prayer does God suddenly cease to exist?

No, what I did say was that if 1,000 people believe that the cake taste like strawberry, then it does taste like strawberry.....

I assume you agree that theism has been a general cultural trait.

Yes, I agree to that. Furthermore, I say that due to this there must be some reason for this which we still are unable to with certainty point out. Based on the behavior towards theism, we have enough base to make a theory.

I surf waves baby. Some of my atheist buddies have been to Indonesia on surf trips: never got arrested or barred from the country interestingly enough.

Well, they did get Corby..... Sorry, sarcasm intended....

[Pindar]

I guess you are right. Gitmo is not a part of US.......

No one is in Gitmo for their beliefs though a few are there because they're Indonesian.

No, what I did say was that if 1,000 people believe that the cake taste like strawberry, then it does taste like strawberry.....

I don't know, but the 1000 people seem to believe it does.

[bmolsson]

No one is in Gitmo for their beliefs though a few are there because they're Indonesian.

I did tell them that a T-shirt with bin Laden on the chest was a bad idea.....

I don't know, but the 1000 people seem to believe it does.

So you don't know in the Strawberry case, but in the God case you immediately made a conclusion. Shouldn't the sceintific approach be less biased?.....

[Pindar]

I did tell them that a T-shirt with bin Laden on the chest was a bad idea.....

They should have listened.

So you don't know in the Strawberry case, but in the God case you immediately made a conclusion. Shouldn't the sceintific approach be less biased?.....

I don't know what you are referring to? Are you thinking of this:

the bad guys: Not at all. Let us take one example:

If you have 1,000 people eating a cake. You then ask them to tell you what it taste like. The majority answer "strawberry".
Would you consider that the cake taste "strawberry" ?

Now take the same group and ask them to pray. You then ask them to tell you if God answered their prayers. If the majority answered, yes, God answered my prayer.
Would you consider that God exist ?



the good guys: So, your argument is if a 1000 people write God answered their prayer then God exists?

Now if another 1000 write God didn't answer their prayer does God suddenly cease to exist?

This is me trying to understand your point. I have made no conclusion, but asked some questions. In neither instance do I know if what was tasted was strawberry or what was answered was Divine.

[bmolsson]

This is me trying to understand your point. I have made no conclusion, but asked some questions. In neither instance do I know if what was tasted was strawberry or what was answered was Divine.

Well, I imagined you would say that taste is scientifically valid, while response on prayer is not. The issue was not the questions, but the empirical approach......

Never mind....

[Pindar]

Well, I imagined you would say that taste is scientifically valid, while response on prayer is not. The issue was not the questions, but the empirical approach......

Never mind....

OK, and you have to belief in Judaism to be a Jew.

[bmolsson]

OK, and you have to belief in Judaism to be a Jew.

Not if you ask 1,000 jews.....

[bmolsson]

Pindar, bottom line. Jews consider them jews regardless if they have the faith or not. Judaism is not about faith, it's about a way of living, a society itself.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Pindar, bottom line. Jews consider them jews regardless if they have the faith or not. Judaism is not about faith, it's about a way of living, a society itself.

if you consider yourself part of someone elses definition of something, shouldn't you adhere to the accepted meaning?

otherwise, create your own word- then you can have full say over the definition

the society owes its differences to the religion

if i moved from ireland and 1500 years later my progeny found itself in algeria, would it be reasonable for them to conscider themselves irish? once the defining difference is cut from individual - they become a person - just liek others - with different experiences - just like everyone else

they can call themselves whatever theyd wish - but it would be either innacurate or based on a false understanding of the difference in the first place

many jews are not even semitic - they have either been cross bred or converted - what are they? what if they break away from the faith of their ancestors? what then?

[bmolsson]

if you consider yourself part of someone elses definition of something, shouldn't you adhere to the accepted meaning?

This is the whole point. The religion is a evolving beast, it changes all the time. The reality around the religion today differs from yesterday.
Furthermore, faith is not something you can measure and therefore inappropiate as a part of the definition. Pindar has argued this all the time........

[ICantSpellDawg]

This is the whole point. The religion is a evolving beast, it changes all the time. The reality around the religion today differs from yesterday.
Furthermore, faith is not something you can measure and therefore inappropiate as a part of the definition. Pindar has argued this all the time........

but i thought that we were no longer talking about re-interpretation

i thought that we were talking about abandonement of the faith

when does something cross the border from being one thing to being another

i thought that pindar said that one who did not believe in the 5 pillars was not a muslim
so that one who does not believe in 1 God hasnt even met the basic requirement of judaism

[bmolsson]

but i thought that we were no longer talking about re-interpretation

i thought that we were talking about abandonement of the faith

when does something cross the border from being one thing to being another

i thought that pindar said that one who did not believe in the 5 pillars was not a muslim
so that one who does not believe in 1 God hasnt even met the basic requirement of judaism

Turn it around. If you believe in 1 God, does that make you a jew ?

The reality is that most people that enter a religion do that by birth and nothing else. Because you make an assumption that all people that belong to a certain religion believe in their specific God, don't make them actually believe in the same God.
Religion as well as most other old traditions, are based on an ancient reference base and is no longer relevant. Fundamentalists disagree with this, while the reformed and more objective members of the religion agree with it.
It is not a valid view to assume that every member of a religion is "religious".

[Pindar]

Pindar, bottom line. Jews consider them jews regardless if they have the faith or not. Judaism is not about faith, it's about a way of living, a society itself.

The bottom line is considering oneself something doesn't necessarily make it so. Designations should have some criteria. For religion, I think that baseline criteria is belief.

Turn it around. If you believe in 1 God, does that make you a jew ?

No, but belief in one God is a necessary condition for being a Jew. You need to distinguish between necessary and sufficient conditions. For example: one who holds to the Five Pillars of Islam has met the sufficient condition for being Muslim.

The reality is that most people that enter a religion do that by birth and nothing else. Because you make an assumption that all people that belong to a certain religion believe in their specific God, don't make them actually believe in the same God.
Religion as well as most other old traditions, are based on an ancient reference base and is no longer relevant. Fundamentalists disagree with this, while the reformed and more objective members of the religion agree with it.
It is not a valid view to assume that every member of a religion is "religious".

Religion without religiosity is not religion. You need to distinguish between cultural designations and actual religion.

[bmolsson]

The bottom line is considering oneself something doesn't necessarily make it so. Designations should have some criteria. For religion, I think that baseline criteria is belief.

Belief in what ? The belonging to the ethnic group ? The family tradition ? The rules of life ? Belief in a modern society is more than a traditional deity.

No, but belief in one God is a necessary condition for being a Jew. You need to distinguish between necessary and sufficient conditions. For example: one who holds to the Five Pillars of Islam has met the sufficient condition for being Muslim.

I do distringuish, it's enough to be born a jew or a muslim to be a part of the respective religion.

Religion without religiosity is not religion. You need to distinguish between cultural designations and actual religion.

I think you confuse religions with cults and sects......

[ICantSpellDawg]

Belief in what ? The belonging to the ethnic group ? The family tradition ? The rules of life ? Belief in a modern society is more than a traditional deity.



I do distringuish, it's enough to be born a jew or a muslim to be a part of the respective religion.



I think you confuse religions with cults and sects......

first you were arguing about the cultural practices based on religion


you are now saying that an atheist can be a theist because of his upbringing in a tradition of theism?

[Pindar]

Belief in what ?

Belief in the tenets of the faith. Religion is a belief system: absent the belief one cannot be considered a part of the system.

I do distringuish, it's enough to be born a jew or a muslim to be a part of the respective religion.

Which again means you discount conversion.

I think you confuse religions with cults and sects......

You would be wrong.

[Pindar]

you are now saying that an atheist can be a theist because of his upbringing in a tradition of theism?

This sounds very bmolsson like.

[bmolsson]

you are now saying that an atheist can be a theist because of his upbringing in a tradition of theism?

Yes, most of the Christians in this forum is actually atheists..... Why don't you make a poll.....

[bmolsson]

Belief in the tenets of the faith. Religion is a belief system: absent the belief one cannot be considered a part of the system.

I disagree.

Which again means you discount conversion.

Not at all. It's like immigration, good for the prosperity, but rejected by the majority.

You would be wrong.

Nah....

[bmolsson]

This sounds very bmolsson like.

Because he has seen the light .....

[Sigurd]

Yes, most of the Christians in this forum is actually atheists..... Why don't you make a poll.....

This, søta bror, is where I no longer can agree.
The term/label Christian is always used in context with religiosity.
Even back here where 90% of the population are members of the Lutheran church, very few label themselves as Christian.
To be a Christian involves faith in the Lord Jesus and this is true for all who call themselves a Christian (not the first name!!).
Not many would label themselves as secular Christian as it becomes an oxymoron.