What is a Jew

[bmolsson]

The bottom line is considering oneself something doesn't necessarily make it so. Designations should have some criteria. For religion, I think that baseline criteria is belief.

Belief in what ? The belonging to the ethnic group ? The family tradition ? The rules of life ? Belief in a modern society is more than a traditional deity.

No, but belief in one God is a necessary condition for being a Jew. You need to distinguish between necessary and sufficient conditions. For example: one who holds to the Five Pillars of Islam has met the sufficient condition for being Muslim.

I do distringuish, it's enough to be born a jew or a muslim to be a part of the respective religion.

Religion without religiosity is not religion. You need to distinguish between cultural designations and actual religion.

I think you confuse religions with cults and sects......

[ICantSpellDawg]

Belief in what ? The belonging to the ethnic group ? The family tradition ? The rules of life ? Belief in a modern society is more than a traditional deity.



I do distringuish, it's enough to be born a jew or a muslim to be a part of the respective religion.



I think you confuse religions with cults and sects......

first you were arguing about the cultural practices based on religion


you are now saying that an atheist can be a theist because of his upbringing in a tradition of theism?

[Pindar]

you are now saying that an atheist can be a theist because of his upbringing in a tradition of theism?

This sounds very bmolsson like.

[bmolsson]

This sounds very bmolsson like.

Because he has seen the light .....

[bmolsson]

you are now saying that an atheist can be a theist because of his upbringing in a tradition of theism?

Yes, most of the Christians in this forum is actually atheists..... Why don't you make a poll.....

[Sigurd]

Yes, most of the Christians in this forum is actually atheists..... Why don't you make a poll.....

This, søta bror, is where I no longer can agree.
The term/label Christian is always used in context with religiosity.
Even back here where 90% of the population are members of the Lutheran church, very few label themselves as Christian.
To be a Christian involves faith in the Lord Jesus and this is true for all who call themselves a Christian (not the first name!!).
Not many would label themselves as secular Christian as it becomes an oxymoron.

[Pindar]

This, søta bror, is where I no longer can agree.
The term/label Christian is always used in context with religiosity.
Even back here where 90% of the population are members of the Lutheran church, very few label themselves as Christian.
To be a Christian involves faith in the Lord Jesus and this is true for all who call themselves a Christian (not the first name!!).
Not many would label themselves as secular Christian as it becomes an oxymoron.

Master bmolsson has already admitted such things as Muslim-Christian and theist-atheist are possible. He is not concerned with oxymorons. The constraints of logic do not deter him. He is a master of his own ship sailing a sea of his own design.

[ICantSpellDawg]

everytime i get depressed about the point of the world i will just look to these forums and remember that at least i dont disagree with the basic meanings of words and use them interchangably to describe anything

"that was the most tyrannosaurus bus philanthroper in the meso-intelligent hippo sector. you dont know what i mean? let me break it down for you. ive created this new language by hijaking an pre-established one where no word means what anyone believes it to mean..."

[bmolsson]

everytime i get depressed about the point of the world i will just look to these forums and remember that at least i dont disagree with the basic meanings of words and use them interchangably to describe anything

How can you be sure that the word you are using actually is the word you should be using ? You view might be biased.....

[bmolsson]

This, søta bror, is where I no longer can agree.
The term/label Christian is always used in context with religiosity.
Even back here where 90% of the population are members of the Lutheran church, very few label themselves as Christian.
To be a Christian involves faith in the Lord Jesus and this is true for all who call themselves a Christian (not the first name!!).
Not many would label themselves as secular Christian as it becomes an oxymoron.

Ok. 90 % belongs to the Lutheran Church, but they are not Christians ? Isn't the Lutheran Church a part of the Christian religion ?

According to the CIA statistics there are no atheists in US. Even though there seems to be plenty of them here.
Most atheists will marry in the church, celebrate Christmas and get buried at a church graveyard. Why is that ?
Furthermore, most people will belong to a religion when they are born. Does that make the believers ?

It's all about reality.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Ok. 90 % belongs to the Lutheran Church, but they are not Christians ? Isn't the Lutheran Church a part of the Christian religion ?

According to the CIA statistics there are no atheists in US. Even though there seems to be plenty of them here.
Most atheists will marry in the church, celebrate Christmas and get buried at a church graveyard. Why is that ?
Furthermore, most people will belong to a religion when they are born. Does that make the believers ?

It's all about reality.

i think you miss the point of the CIA statistics
they give you the religious breakdown

OF THOSE WHO ARE RELIGIOUS, - may be 75% of the total population
so is the breakdown is (fake stats) 35% Catholic, 50% protestant, 3% Jewish, 2% muslim, 10% other - this is the 100% breakdown of 75% of the population.

atheists are not counted because it is not a religion so it does not belong on the religion percentage list - they are part of the 25% (total pop) who are not religious

some other countries include atheist in the religious breakdown

[bmolsson]

i think you miss the point of the CIA statistics
they give you the religious breakdown

OF THOSE WHO ARE RELIGIOUS, - may be 75% of the total population
so is the breakdown is (fake stats) 35% Catholic, 50% protestant, 3% Jewish, 2% muslim, 10% other - this is the 100% breakdown of 75% of the population.

atheists are not counted because it is not a religion so it does not belong on the religion percentage list - they are part of the 25% (total pop) who are not religious

some other countries include atheist in the religious breakdown

You are wrong. The whole population is included.

[Sigurd]

Ok. 90 % belongs to the Lutheran Church, but they are not Christians ? Isn't the Lutheran Church a part of the Christian religion ?

It is... but reality is; if you ask the majority of the Norwegian people if they are Christian, that is: "Are you a Christian?" (you know beforehand that 9 out of 10 are members of the 'Christian' Lutheran Church) you will definitely get 8 out of 10 times: "No, I am not". Why is that?
This is because to be a Christian, that is to label yourself a Christian, you involve a question of personal belief.
Someone who calls themselves a Christian here, and you know this very well, are people believing in Jesus Christ and think they are saved.

As for Jewish people and asking them if they are Jews, they would probably call themselves a Jew even if they don’t believe in the religion of Judaism.
As for Muslims, I can’t make any knowledge claim there because I have none.

Furthermore, most people will belong to a religion when they are born. Does that make them believers ?

As my Norwegian example shows: it does not.
Would you call me a Christian?

[Pindar]

It is... but reality is; if you ask the majority of the Norwegian people if they are Christian, that is: "Are you a Christian?" (you know beforehand that 9 out of 10 are members of the 'Christian' Lutheran Church) you will definitely get 8 out of 10 times: "No, I am not". Why is that?
This is because to be a Christian, that is to label yourself a Christian, you involve a question of personal belief.
Someone who calls themselves a Christian here, and you know this very well, are people believing in Jesus Christ and think they are saved.

As for Jewish people and asking them if they are Jews, they would probably call themselves a Jew even if they don’t believe in the religion of Judaism.
[/color]

As my Norwegian example shows: it does not.
Would you call me a Christian?

I agree.

As far as the Jewish question is concerned: I think those who define themselves a Jewish even though they don't believe in Judaism do so out of some cultural affinity or false notions of race. My position is these two views are mistaken. I don't believe Jewish status can be coherently defended without reference to belief.

[bmolsson]

It is... but reality is; if you ask the majority of the Norwegian people if they are Christian, that is: "Are you a Christian?" (you know beforehand that 9 out of 10 are members of the 'Christian' Lutheran Church) you will definitely get 8 out of 10 times: "No, I am not". Why is that?
This is because to be a Christian, that is to label yourself a Christian, you involve a question of personal belief.
Someone who calls themselves a Christian here, and you know this very well, are people believing in Jesus Christ and think they are saved.

I recall that in Norway you have to ask for exit from the "state church" to be releaved from the church taxes ? Isn't that so ?

As for Jewish people and asking them if they are Jews, they would probably call themselves a Jew even if they don’t believe in the religion of Judaism.
As for Muslims, I can’t make any knowledge claim there because I have none.

It's not about believing in the religion, it's a bout the faith in the deity. There is a large difference in that.

As my Norwegian example shows: it does not.
Would you call me a Christian?

If you are a member of a Christian church yes. If not, no. If you believe in God or not, is totally up to you.

[Pindar]

Belief in what ?

Belief in the tenets of the faith. Religion is a belief system: absent the belief one cannot be considered a part of the system.

I do distringuish, it's enough to be born a jew or a muslim to be a part of the respective religion.

Which again means you discount conversion.

I think you confuse religions with cults and sects......

You would be wrong.

[bmolsson]

Belief in the tenets of the faith. Religion is a belief system: absent the belief one cannot be considered a part of the system.

I disagree.

Which again means you discount conversion.

Not at all. It's like immigration, good for the prosperity, but rejected by the majority.

You would be wrong.

Nah....

[Pindar]

Posted by Pindar
Which again means you discount conversion


Not at all. It's like immigration, good for the prosperity, but rejected by the majority.

You assume that because you changed your religious status to wed that all others are equally void of belief. It is not so.

[bmolsson]

You assume that because you changed your religious status to wed that all others are equally void of belief. It is not so.

Prove it....

[ICantSpellDawg]

Prove it....

the burden of proof lies with you
you are the one challenging an established notion

you have done little to establish your claim other than saying that anything can be anything

[bmolsson]

the burden of proof lies with you
you are the one challenging an established notion

you have done little to establish your claim other than saying that anything can be anything

It is NOT and established notion that members of a religion have the faith in the appointed deity. Membership of a religion is a administrative status and have absolutely nothing to do with the individual faith.

[Pindar]

Prove it....

Me.

[bmolsson]

Me.

And the control group ?