What is a Jew

[Pindar]

Posted by Pindar
Which again means you discount conversion


Not at all. It's like immigration, good for the prosperity, but rejected by the majority.

You assume that because you changed your religious status to wed that all others are equally void of belief. It is not so.

[Pindar]

This, søta bror, is where I no longer can agree.
The term/label Christian is always used in context with religiosity.
Even back here where 90% of the population are members of the Lutheran church, very few label themselves as Christian.
To be a Christian involves faith in the Lord Jesus and this is true for all who call themselves a Christian (not the first name!!).
Not many would label themselves as secular Christian as it becomes an oxymoron.

Master bmolsson has already admitted such things as Muslim-Christian and theist-atheist are possible. He is not concerned with oxymorons. The constraints of logic do not deter him. He is a master of his own ship sailing a sea of his own design.

[ICantSpellDawg]

everytime i get depressed about the point of the world i will just look to these forums and remember that at least i dont disagree with the basic meanings of words and use them interchangably to describe anything

"that was the most tyrannosaurus bus philanthroper in the meso-intelligent hippo sector. you dont know what i mean? let me break it down for you. ive created this new language by hijaking an pre-established one where no word means what anyone believes it to mean..."

[bmolsson]

This, søta bror, is where I no longer can agree.
The term/label Christian is always used in context with religiosity.
Even back here where 90% of the population are members of the Lutheran church, very few label themselves as Christian.
To be a Christian involves faith in the Lord Jesus and this is true for all who call themselves a Christian (not the first name!!).
Not many would label themselves as secular Christian as it becomes an oxymoron.

Ok. 90 % belongs to the Lutheran Church, but they are not Christians ? Isn't the Lutheran Church a part of the Christian religion ?

According to the CIA statistics there are no atheists in US. Even though there seems to be plenty of them here.
Most atheists will marry in the church, celebrate Christmas and get buried at a church graveyard. Why is that ?
Furthermore, most people will belong to a religion when they are born. Does that make the believers ?

It's all about reality.

[bmolsson]

You assume that because you changed your religious status to wed that all others are equally void of belief. It is not so.

Prove it....

[bmolsson]

everytime i get depressed about the point of the world i will just look to these forums and remember that at least i dont disagree with the basic meanings of words and use them interchangably to describe anything

How can you be sure that the word you are using actually is the word you should be using ? You view might be biased.....

[ICantSpellDawg]

Prove it....

the burden of proof lies with you
you are the one challenging an established notion

you have done little to establish your claim other than saying that anything can be anything

[ICantSpellDawg]

Ok. 90 % belongs to the Lutheran Church, but they are not Christians ? Isn't the Lutheran Church a part of the Christian religion ?

According to the CIA statistics there are no atheists in US. Even though there seems to be plenty of them here.
Most atheists will marry in the church, celebrate Christmas and get buried at a church graveyard. Why is that ?
Furthermore, most people will belong to a religion when they are born. Does that make the believers ?

It's all about reality.

i think you miss the point of the CIA statistics
they give you the religious breakdown

OF THOSE WHO ARE RELIGIOUS, - may be 75% of the total population
so is the breakdown is (fake stats) 35% Catholic, 50% protestant, 3% Jewish, 2% muslim, 10% other - this is the 100% breakdown of 75% of the population.

atheists are not counted because it is not a religion so it does not belong on the religion percentage list - they are part of the 25% (total pop) who are not religious

some other countries include atheist in the religious breakdown

[Sigurd]

Ok. 90 % belongs to the Lutheran Church, but they are not Christians ? Isn't the Lutheran Church a part of the Christian religion ?

It is... but reality is; if you ask the majority of the Norwegian people if they are Christian, that is: "Are you a Christian?" (you know beforehand that 9 out of 10 are members of the 'Christian' Lutheran Church) you will definitely get 8 out of 10 times: "No, I am not". Why is that?
This is because to be a Christian, that is to label yourself a Christian, you involve a question of personal belief.
Someone who calls themselves a Christian here, and you know this very well, are people believing in Jesus Christ and think they are saved.

As for Jewish people and asking them if they are Jews, they would probably call themselves a Jew even if they don’t believe in the religion of Judaism.
As for Muslims, I can’t make any knowledge claim there because I have none.

Furthermore, most people will belong to a religion when they are born. Does that make them believers ?

As my Norwegian example shows: it does not.
Would you call me a Christian?

[Pindar]

Prove it....

Me.

[Pindar]

It is... but reality is; if you ask the majority of the Norwegian people if they are Christian, that is: "Are you a Christian?" (you know beforehand that 9 out of 10 are members of the 'Christian' Lutheran Church) you will definitely get 8 out of 10 times: "No, I am not". Why is that?
This is because to be a Christian, that is to label yourself a Christian, you involve a question of personal belief.
Someone who calls themselves a Christian here, and you know this very well, are people believing in Jesus Christ and think they are saved.

As for Jewish people and asking them if they are Jews, they would probably call themselves a Jew even if they don’t believe in the religion of Judaism.
[/color]

As my Norwegian example shows: it does not.
Would you call me a Christian?

I agree.

As far as the Jewish question is concerned: I think those who define themselves a Jewish even though they don't believe in Judaism do so out of some cultural affinity or false notions of race. My position is these two views are mistaken. I don't believe Jewish status can be coherently defended without reference to belief.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I agree.

As far as the Jewish question is concerned: I think those who define themselves a Jewish even though they don't believe in Judaism do so out of some cultural affinity or false notions of race. My position is these two views are mistaken. I don't believe Jewish status can be coherently defended without reference to belief.

regarding religion, it seems to be people who dont (or refuse to) understand the concept itself that identify without belief. Judaism is a bit tricky, tho

"The English suffix -ism was first used to form a noun of action from a verb, as in baptism, from baptein, a Greek word meaning "to dip". Its usage was later extended to signify systems of belief."

when we say judaISM, you do know what we mean, bmolsson

[bmolsson]

i think you miss the point of the CIA statistics
they give you the religious breakdown

OF THOSE WHO ARE RELIGIOUS, - may be 75% of the total population
so is the breakdown is (fake stats) 35% Catholic, 50% protestant, 3% Jewish, 2% muslim, 10% other - this is the 100% breakdown of 75% of the population.

atheists are not counted because it is not a religion so it does not belong on the religion percentage list - they are part of the 25% (total pop) who are not religious

some other countries include atheist in the religious breakdown

You are wrong. The whole population is included.

[bmolsson]

the burden of proof lies with you
you are the one challenging an established notion

you have done little to establish your claim other than saying that anything can be anything

It is NOT and established notion that members of a religion have the faith in the appointed deity. Membership of a religion is a administrative status and have absolutely nothing to do with the individual faith.

[bmolsson]

It is... but reality is; if you ask the majority of the Norwegian people if they are Christian, that is: "Are you a Christian?" (you know beforehand that 9 out of 10 are members of the 'Christian' Lutheran Church) you will definitely get 8 out of 10 times: "No, I am not". Why is that?
This is because to be a Christian, that is to label yourself a Christian, you involve a question of personal belief.
Someone who calls themselves a Christian here, and you know this very well, are people believing in Jesus Christ and think they are saved.

I recall that in Norway you have to ask for exit from the "state church" to be releaved from the church taxes ? Isn't that so ?

As for Jewish people and asking them if they are Jews, they would probably call themselves a Jew even if they don’t believe in the religion of Judaism.
As for Muslims, I can’t make any knowledge claim there because I have none.

It's not about believing in the religion, it's a bout the faith in the deity. There is a large difference in that.

As my Norwegian example shows: it does not.
Would you call me a Christian?

If you are a member of a Christian church yes. If not, no. If you believe in God or not, is totally up to you.

[bmolsson]

regarding religion, it seems to be people who dont (or refuse to) understand the concept itself that identify without belief. Judaism is a bit tricky, tho

"The English suffix -ism was first used to form a noun of action from a verb, as in baptism, from baptein, a Greek word meaning "to dip". Its usage was later extended to signify systems of belief."

when we say judaISM, you do know what we mean, bmolsson

Sure, make the whole discussion a piss contest in English language and everything will just be fine and dandy.

[bmolsson]

Me.

And the control group ?

[ICantSpellDawg]

i am a firm believer in definitions
it is my belief that we define things as we go

when we change the fundamentals it becomes something new

this is an era of personal responsibility
we should know what to call ourselves on the census lists

if we do not follow the basic tenents of a religion - we are not part of the club
these tenants are not simply cultural or based on practice, but in many cases belief - which is really the defining trait of whether that is your religion

you seem to be playing the word game
finding alternate meanings for the common understanding AND denying basic naming schemes such as ISM and the entire concept of religiosity

i do see your point
some people do claim to be part of a religion when they in fact do not believe
i think that they are mistaken
however, i dont know how you can base the claim that MOST people who claim to be part of a religion do not believe in it

i do not know anyone who doesnt have a faith in god that chooses "Catholic" or another denomination on forms that they fill out

they tend to check "Other" or "none"
why do they have that selection on the sheet and why do so many people choose it?

you mean to tell me that a percent of the population as large as that was raised with NO religion???????? i doubt it - i live in New york and i know VERY few people who were raised as atheists

they seem to be (for the most part) people who were raised with religion but rejected it, adopting suitable words and definitions - rather than warping the ideas behind pre-established ones

(this doesnt PROVE anything, but this site seems reasonably reputable
http://www.religioustolerance.org/var_rel.htm)



i hate capitalization and punctuation

[Sigurd]

I recall that in Norway you have to ask for exit from the "state church" to be releaved from the church taxes ? Isn't that so ?

Nope, here the church and the state are the same thing unlike Sweden. Even if I am not a member of said state church (Lutheran) a part of my tax goes to the church. I have to become a member of another state sanctioned organisation e.g. Human ethic society to be sure that that organisation get money for my membership through taxes.
If I were to become a Jehova's witness or a Mormon which are not state sanctioned, a part of my tax would still go to the state church.
I believe this is not so in Sweden where you can tick off in your tax return that you are not affiliated with any state sanctioned organisations and get a 1700SeK tax relief.

If you are a member of a Christian church yes. If not, no. If you believe in God or not, is totally up to you.

I am not a member of the state church and I am an agnostic.
One of my best friends is a registred member of the state church but is an atheist.
Would you still call him a Christian to his face (he is 6'3" and 280 lb and has a reputation of being quite a Viking and can be VERY intimidating)?
The difference between him and me is I made the bothersome work of resigning from the church but he couldn't be bothered.
We both pay the clergy of the Lutheran church through taxes.
I have an open mind towards religion, he doesn't. He believes all religion is crap.

[bmolsson]

i do see your point
some people do claim to be part of a religion when they in fact do not believe
i think that they are mistaken
however, i dont know how you can base the claim that MOST people who claim to be part of a religion do not believe in it

Even if they are mistaken, it doesn't change the fact that most members of modern religions don't have any faith in a higher deity. If you make a poll in this forum and ask people which religion they belong to and if they believe in God or not, you will see that the largest group will belong to a religion and at the same time either be atheist or agnostics........

[ICantSpellDawg]

Even if they are mistaken, it doesn't change the fact that most members of modern religions don't have any faith in a higher deity. If you make a poll in this forum and ask people which religion they belong to and if they believe in God or not, you will see that the largest group will belong to a religion and at the same time either be atheist or agnostics........

that is absurd
i never argued that people know what they were talking about
i am arguing that saying one is religious without belief is absurd

i would say that i am not catholic - i was raised a catholic and i am surrounded by catholics, but i dont buy it and i choose to live differently.
am i wrong?

there are other descriptions to go by: traditional catholic, of catholic descent, etc. i have been raised in the catholic tradition, i even go to mass sometimes to be with my parents - but not because of a belief.

even if one doesnt abide by the rules - they are catholic if they buy the concepts that are necessary to be defined as one.


also - the idea that MOST think this way is seriously warped
have you done a study? or do you simply have faith that this is the truth in the face of all logic and criticism?

[Pindar]

Even if they are mistaken, it doesn't change the fact that most members of modern religions don't have any faith in a higher deity.

This is flawed. It is flawed because it is oxymoronic. Membership suggests some standard whereby the designation can be made. If one can be a member one can also not be a member. It therefore cuts against the 'fixed' notion of religion. The standard is therefore dependant on the individual and if the individual is the primary factor then the motivations (beliefs) of the individual are relevant.

[bmolsson]

This is flawed. It is flawed because it is oxymoronic. Membership suggests some standard whereby the designation can be made. If one can be a member one can also not be a member. It therefore cuts against the 'fixed' notion of religion. The standard is therefore dependant on the individual and if the individual is the primary factor then the motivations (beliefs) of the individual are relevant.

Use your logic on American citizenship.....

There is nothing oxy with members of religions. It's all about adminsitration in a large social structure....

[bmolsson]

or do you simply have faith that this is the truth in the face of all logic and criticism?

I am the man ??

[Pindar]

Use your logic on American citizenship.....

There is nothing oxy with members of religions. It's all about adminsitration in a large social structure....

Alas, a light shineth in the dark and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

The above was refuted long ago. You'll have to do better than that.

[bmolsson]

Alas, a light shineth in the dark and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

The above was refuted long ago. You'll have to do better than that.

I think that my thread have proved my point. I am a muslim and I don't believe in Allah. You are a Christian and you don't believe in the old testament.

By the way, the faith in the North Korean leader would actually make the communism there a religion. Really interesting actually......

[Pindar]

I think that my thread have proved my point. I am a muslim and I don't believe in Allah. You are a Christian and you don't believe in the old testament.

By the way, the faith in the North Korean leader would actually make the communism there a religion. Really interesting actually......

Alas, no. You are not a Muslim as you do not accept the Five Pillars of Islam. I am a Christian and I do accept the Old Testament. Communism is not a religion.

You are confused on oh so many things, but I like you anyway. The perplexed have a certain charm.

[ICantSpellDawg]

guh

needless words

[bmolsson]

Alas, no. You are not a Muslim as you do not accept the Five Pillars of Islam. I am a Christian and I do accept the Old Testament. Communism is not a religion.

You are confused on oh so many things, but I like you anyway. The perplexed have a certain charm.

Oke, please tell me how the earth was created and how humans was put upon it......

On my confusion, legends through history was never believed in nor accepted during they lives, I just accept that sacrifice for the better good.....

[ICantSpellDawg]

Oke, please tell me how the earth was created and how humans was put upon it......

On my confusion, legends through history was never believed in nor accepted during they lives, I just accept that sacrifice for the better good.....

dont you mean WERE put on it
dont you mean WERE never believed
dont you mean THEIR lives


????????
eye booze
drinky drinky