What is a Jew

[ICantSpellDawg]

You are wrong.

First of all, height is different from faith and favorite color. You can quantify height. Faith and favorite color can't be quantified and you just have to legally swear your position, regardless if it's true or not.

If Indonesia decides that Indonesian citizens are 7 ft tall, then everyone not 7 ft tall would not be Indonesian. This was applied in US during the slavery. Everyone with black skin was a slave, with white skin you became a free citizen. So your position here fails.

If Indonesia decides that every Indonesian have green as their favorite color, and they agree, they are Indonesian citizens. If not they will be deported, exterminated or prosecuted. This has been done by civilizations during history and happens in countries like China and North Korea at present time. Once again, your position fails.

With your own logic, faith can not be quantified and is therefore not relevant in "real" life. It's purely symobolic.

So, your position fails, Pindar. If you want to argue the meaning of religion, faith, religious as words in the English language, but the actual topic of our discussions doesn't change. You are wrong.

I, personally, disagree.
In my own opinion after following the arguement, I believe that you are the one who is wrong. However, I do believe that you may have trumped Pindar's point about Indonesians being 7 feet tall. At the same time, I am not sure that the point that you were refuting was damaging to Pindar's superior arguement at all.

[bmolsson]

I, personally, disagree.
In my own opinion after following the arguement, I believe that you are the one who is wrong. However, I do believe that you may have trumped Pindar's point about Indonesians being 7 feet tall. At the same time I am not sure that the point that you were refuting was damaging to Pindar's superior arguement at all.

Well, I didn't write the Indonesian constitution so if you think that Pindar is superior to the Indonesian constitution, I have no problems.....

[Pindar]

Well, I didn't write the Indonesian constitution so if you think that Pindar is superior to the Indonesian constitution, I have no problems.....

It's not a question of writing the Constitution as much as understanding it.

[bmolsson]

It's not a question of writing the Constitution as much as understanding it.

You seems to forget that there are people behind the constitution and understanding them would make you understand the constitution better. Once again you seem to forget the people and their reality.

[Kanamori]

Since I haven't noticeda cultural argumentation against Pindar's position, as I understand it, I will put it forward. There is no denying that someone who believes in the old texts and Yaweh is a Jew. There is also the afore mentioned differnece between a Jew and a Hebrew: "Jews follow Judaism, a religion. Hebrews are a race of Semites." - Insane Apache. There is, however, a difference between being a Jew and being Jewish. There is a Jewish culture -- a culture of or resembling the Jews. When you, Pindar, say, "Further, the culture of an Ethiopian Jew and a Russian Jew are not the same," it seems to be an argument in preparation of an assertion such as my own. Of course, Russian Jews and Ethiopian Jews have different cultures, there is no way around it. This, however, does not mean that their cultures are not distinctly Jewish, again of or resembling the Jews. Although they are disparate in their qualities, they share the distinction that their culutures developed the way they did, under a simialr model if you will, because of their religion. Also there is distinct Jewish quisine. All Jewish quisines are not the same from the different regions Jews inhabit, but they all share the same origin. Saying cultural things are Jewish is saying that they originated under the same model, more specifically: because of their religion, the culuture of different Jews changed as they moved or were forced into other areas and were exposed and entered -- assimilated isn't the right word ;) -- into existing socities and cultures. As those cultures encouter the Jewish cultures, portions of them rub off, such as Jewish quisine and habits. You can be Jewish without being a Jew. Some of the culture of New York City comes to mind as a case in point.

[Pindar]

Kanamori

Hello,

I need to qualify a few things to make sure I understand your position: " You can be Jewish without being a Jew". So one can be the adjective without inferring the noun?

You seem to agree that a believer in Judaism is a Jew. So we agree here. You also seem to be arguing that in addition to this designation a Jew can be defined by culture. Now you admit that there is no consistent "Jewish" culture, but the claim is still appropriate because one can trace back to a common point of origin. Is that right? This common point of origin would be appeal to Abraham or the introduction of Mosaic Law and its surrounding features? Would that be your view? Regardless, the key it would seem is this point of origin. If I understood you correctly then it would seem Christians are also Jews as they trace back to that same point: accepting all the Old Testament as actual and authoritative. One might also argue Muslims are also Jews as they too recognize the Old Testament and trace back to Abraham. This would seem a problem.

Another question: if a believer of Judaism is a Jew, and a follower of "Jewish culture" is a Jew, is either considered primary? For example: can one believe in Judaims and not follow any Jewish cultural whatever and still be Jewish? What if one follows "Jewish culture" but claims he is Buddhist. Is this fellow still a Jew?

Question three: if one doesn't believe in Judaism and doesn't follow Jewish culture can they still be a Jew? What if he claims he is Jewish but does neither of the two?


Note: I don't agree with the Hebrew/Jew explanation given by Insane Apache. Hebrew is not a race. Hebrew referred to the collective tribes of Israel. Jew referred to the descendants of Judah or members of the kingdom of Judah after the kingdom of Solomon divided.

[Kanamori]

I need to qualify a few things to make sure I understand your position: " You can be Jewish without being a Jew". So one can be the adjective without inferring the noun?

They can have an element in them that is Jewish, but they need not be a Jew. So, the adjective requires a portion, but not the entirety, of the noun. Saying that the adjective and the noun are unrelated is ludicrous.

Now you admit that there is no consistent "Jewish" culture, but the claim is still appropriate because one can trace back to a common point of origin. Is that right?

"Admit" seems to imply that I recognize it as a weakpoint, although it is not a weakpoint. Essentially, though, your understanding of my position is sufficient for as far as we've gone.

This common point of origin would be appeal to Abraham or the introduction of Mosaic Law and its surrounding features? Would that be your view?

Yes, it is.

Regardless, the key it would seem is this point of origin. If I understood you correctly then it would seem Christians are also Jews as they trace back to that same point: accepting all the Old Testament as actual and authoritative. One might also argue Muslims are also Jews as they too recognize the Old Testament and trace back to Abraham.

Christians are not Jews. Because they have some Jewish elements does not make them Jews. Following that line, one who would argue Muslims are Jews would also be incorrect.

...more later, it's back to the slaving hell hole I go.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Christians are not Jews. Because they have some Jewish elements does not make them Jews. Following that line, one who would argue Muslims are Jews would also be incorrect.

This is where, I think, the real issue with your post comes up (which, I might add was a good post). What is the qualifier that seperates some with similar traditions from others that are both based in the same tradition. This would seem to contradict your point that some are "Jews" without the belief. There doesnt seem to be much of a homogenous racial beggining point that differs from the beggining point of others. I don't know - I'm just attempting to talk about stuff.