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Thread: What is a Jew

  1. #181
    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Since I haven't noticeda cultural argumentation against Pindar's position, as I understand it, I will put it forward. There is no denying that someone who believes in the old texts and Yaweh is a Jew. There is also the afore mentioned differnece between a Jew and a Hebrew: "Jews follow Judaism, a religion. Hebrews are a race of Semites." - Insane Apache. There is, however, a difference between being a Jew and being Jewish. There is a Jewish culture -- a culture of or resembling the Jews. When you, Pindar, say, "Further, the culture of an Ethiopian Jew and a Russian Jew are not the same," it seems to be an argument in preparation of an assertion such as my own. Of course, Russian Jews and Ethiopian Jews have different cultures, there is no way around it. This, however, does not mean that their cultures are not distinctly Jewish, again of or resembling the Jews. Although they are disparate in their qualities, they share the distinction that their culutures developed the way they did, under a simialr model if you will, because of their religion. Also there is distinct Jewish quisine. All Jewish quisines are not the same from the different regions Jews inhabit, but they all share the same origin. Saying cultural things are Jewish is saying that they originated under the same model, more specifically: because of their religion, the culuture of different Jews changed as they moved or were forced into other areas and were exposed and entered -- assimilated isn't the right word ;) -- into existing socities and cultures. As those cultures encouter the Jewish cultures, portions of them rub off, such as Jewish quisine and habits. You can be Jewish without being a Jew. Some of the culture of New York City comes to mind as a case in point.
    Last edited by Kanamori; 07-21-2005 at 07:23.

  2. #182
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    No you did not answer what faith is.
    I did. I said faith is a type of belief.



    I have and in Wikipedia you can also read: God may be Supreme but is not necessarily a Being.
    Here we come to the crunch in our discussion. Creationism includes evolutionary creationism as well as intelligent design. The creator does not have to be what traditionally is seen as God.
    Find me one Creationist group that argues a creationism that doesn't appeal to a Deity. This might exist, but I have never met any. The problem (as I mentioned before) is that if creation (all that is) is itself the product of another creature then it begs the question. Where did the creature that created come from? Theists avoid this problem because the traditional understanding of Deity is a self-existent Being. This is one of the reasons for an appeal to an Absolute.

    The difficulty is twofold. One, you seem to be arguing for an idiosyncratic creationism that nobody holds. Two, even should some fellow who writes from his trailer hold this view: it is logically incoherent.


    In the same discussion about religion, you refuse to see beyond the old definitions you find in a dictionary. If you want to give it another name, fine, but as it is now, there is no other name for it. What is religion beyond faith ? And what is creationism beyond the classical God ?
    I use basic definitions because I want to maintain a point of contact with my interlocutor (in this case, you). If I were to veer from a common understanding I would explain the variation and justify that change. "It" is not sufficient.

    Now you ask: "what is religion beyond faith"? I don't think religion is dependant on faith to be identified as a system. The faith (belief) is a requirement for one to be a practitioner.

    So on your scale, how much faith must one have to have the right to be a member of a religion.


    Me: Enough so that they can say: I believe in religion X.


    bmolsson: And how much is that ?
    I don't know what this is aiming at, but the previous answer seems self-evidentiary. If one says they believe in X that is enough. The statement is sufficient.



    Does that include religions ?
    Of course. One can study the behaviors, rituals, etc. of religion. None of this tells whether the religion under investigation is true. One could demonstrate that group Y practices faith X and delineate what faith X involves. One could even ask the practitioners about the level of their commitment. None of this speaks to the truth claims of the faith, only the structure and belief of the members, as it were. Religion is involved in making truth claims. Creationism is also making a truth claim. In order for religion or Creationism to be a science one would need to be able to falsify the conclusions being made. So, if a Catholic or Creationist states: "God created the universe": one needs some data to verify the claim. Absent this ability the position cannot be considered science.



    Yes, it is incoherent, but it is how it is written. I never argued that it makes sense, just how it actually is. When it was written, they didn't know better, just as with any other religious texts. Society have evolved and our understanding is today superior to our ancestors.
    Good, no more about this tangent hopefully.



    Since when did height become a mental state ?
    Height isn't a mental state. In my earlier post I wrote that law cannot create reality or belief. The height example was meant to demonstrat that passing a law cannot change the height of a people. You didn't understand my point, but instead wrote on citizenship standards. I didn't respond since this wasn't critical.

    I know that law cannot create belief or any other mental state. That is why I argue that the mental state and belief is irrelevant in a modern society and in modern religions.
    If you argue that I have to believe in God to be a muslim, you have argued that my mental state can be quantified. The pillar in Islam that legislates me having the faith can never be enforced. That is why you are wrong.
    This doesn't follow. Because law cannot create a belief, it doesn't follow that belief is therefore irrelevant. People blowing themselves up on subways would seem to demonstrate the point.

    This introduction of quantification doesn't help your case.

    You have repeatedly claimed "objectivity" and "reality" as the mantra for your position, but on three distinct points where there is a clear standard you have not been able to come to terms with the facts. These cases were/are:

    Creationism: the wiki article (as demonstrated), indicates a position arguing for a God as the source of the universe, but you defer.

    Islam: this is defined by the Five Pillars. The first is the Shahada (as demonstrated), yet you defer.

    Indonesia's Constitution: you claimed the Constitution states "one must believe in God in live in Indonesia". Again I showed you the actual text and the phrase is missing. Again you deferred.

    This pattern is condemning for one who appeals of 'objectivity'. Objectivity means accommodating the real state of things, not holding doggedly to a pet position.
    Last edited by Pindar; 07-21-2005 at 23:33.

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  3. #183
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Kanamori

    Hello,

    I need to qualify a few things to make sure I understand your position: " You can be Jewish without being a Jew". So one can be the adjective without inferring the noun?

    You seem to agree that a believer in Judaism is a Jew. So we agree here. You also seem to be arguing that in addition to this designation a Jew can be defined by culture. Now you admit that there is no consistent "Jewish" culture, but the claim is still appropriate because one can trace back to a common point of origin. Is that right? This common point of origin would be appeal to Abraham or the introduction of Mosaic Law and its surrounding features? Would that be your view? Regardless, the key it would seem is this point of origin. If I understood you correctly then it would seem Christians are also Jews as they trace back to that same point: accepting all the Old Testament as actual and authoritative. One might also argue Muslims are also Jews as they too recognize the Old Testament and trace back to Abraham. This would seem a problem.

    Another question: if a believer of Judaism is a Jew, and a follower of "Jewish culture" is a Jew, is either considered primary? For example: can one believe in Judaims and not follow any Jewish cultural whatever and still be Jewish? What if one follows "Jewish culture" but claims he is Buddhist. Is this fellow still a Jew?

    Question three: if one doesn't believe in Judaism and doesn't follow Jewish culture can they still be a Jew? What if he claims he is Jewish but does neither of the two?


    Note: I don't agree with the Hebrew/Jew explanation given by Insane Apache. Hebrew is not a race. Hebrew referred to the collective tribes of Israel. Jew referred to the descendants of Judah or members of the kingdom of Judah after the kingdom of Solomon divided.

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  4. #184
    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    I need to qualify a few things to make sure I understand your position: " You can be Jewish without being a Jew". So one can be the adjective without inferring the noun?
    They can have an element in them that is Jewish, but they need not be a Jew. So, the adjective requires a portion, but not the entirety, of the noun. Saying that the adjective and the noun are unrelated is ludicrous.

    Now you admit that there is no consistent "Jewish" culture, but the claim is still appropriate because one can trace back to a common point of origin. Is that right?
    "Admit" seems to imply that I recognize it as a weakpoint, although it is not a weakpoint. Essentially, though, your understanding of my position is sufficient for as far as we've gone.

    This common point of origin would be appeal to Abraham or the introduction of Mosaic Law and its surrounding features? Would that be your view?
    Yes, it is.

    Regardless, the key it would seem is this point of origin. If I understood you correctly then it would seem Christians are also Jews as they trace back to that same point: accepting all the Old Testament as actual and authoritative. One might also argue Muslims are also Jews as they too recognize the Old Testament and trace back to Abraham.
    Christians are not Jews. Because they have some Jewish elements does not make them Jews. Following that line, one who would argue Muslims are Jews would also be incorrect.

    ...more later, it's back to the slaving hell hole I go.

  5. #185
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanamori
    Christians are not Jews. Because they have some Jewish elements does not make them Jews. Following that line, one who would argue Muslims are Jews would also be incorrect.
    This is where, I think, the real issue with your post comes up (which, I might add was a good post). What is the qualifier that seperates some with similar traditions from others that are both based in the same tradition. This would seem to contradict your point that some are "Jews" without the belief. There doesnt seem to be much of a homogenous racial beggining point that differs from the beggining point of others. I don't know - I'm just attempting to talk about stuff.
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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanamori
    They can have an element in them that is Jewish, but they need not be a Jew. So, the adjective requires a portion, but not the entirety, of the noun. Saying that the adjective and the noun are unrelated is ludicrous.
    I'm confused. An adjective requires something from the noun to maintain meaning, but that something is not sufficient to allow a direct tie?



    So Jew status equals a cultural status and culture is defined as what can be traced back to a common point of origin. This position allows for distinct 'cultures' to still qualify as "Jew" because of traceability. I think this is the crux. Now if that is your position I don't see how you can discount Christians and Muslims since both maintain a clear traceability.

    Now, get back into that slaving hell hole!

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  7. #187
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    I did. I said faith is a type of belief.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Find me one Creationist group that argues a creationism that doesn't appeal to a Deity. This might exist, but I have never met any. The problem (as I mentioned before) is that if creation (all that is) is itself the product of another creature then it begs the question. Where did the creature that created come from? Theists avoid this problem because the traditional understanding of Deity is a self-existent Being. This is one of the reasons for an appeal to an Absolute.
    There are several groups leaning towards the intelligent design theory, which is a evolution of the creationist theory. Most of them believes in a higher alien race.
    Sure, the theists will of course use the deity to avoid the paradox. In my thoughts I don't try to avoid the paradox, since currently there are no end of the paradox, regardless which theory you bring forward.
    You might have a point when arguing that I am not talking about creationism, it's just that I don't know what to call it. For me the possible creator doesn't have to be absolute since for the the creationism theory only tries to explain the creation of life here on earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    The difficulty is twofold. One, you seem to be arguing for an idiosyncratic creationism that nobody holds. Two, even should some fellow who writes from his trailer hold this view: it is logically incoherent.
    Why trailer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    I use basic definitions because I want to maintain a point of contact with my interlocutor (in this case, you). If I were to veer from a common understanding I would explain the variation and justify that change. "It" is not sufficient.
    You only use a definition that supports your position. In other discussions, you will see things further. For you this debate is more about winning the debate then actually penetrate the actual issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Now you ask: "what is religion beyond faith"? I don't think religion is dependant on faith to be identified as a system. The faith (belief) is a requirement for one to be a practitioner.
    Just what I have been arguing (the bold text). I can agree that to be a practitioner you need faith, but to be a member, your faith is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    I don't know what this is aiming at, but the previous answer seems self-evidentiary. If one says they believe in X that is enough. The statement is sufficient.
    So a statement that says you believe is actually sufficient to prove the faith ? If the world would be that simple....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Of course. One can study the behaviors, rituals, etc. of religion. None of this tells whether the religion under investigation is true. One could demonstrate that group Y practices faith X and delineate what faith X involves. One could even ask the practitioners about the level of their commitment. None of this speaks to the truth claims of the faith, only the structure and belief of the members, as it were. Religion is involved in making truth claims. Creationism is also making a truth claim. In order for religion or Creationism to be a science one would need to be able to falsify the conclusions being made. So, if a Catholic or Creationist states: "God created the universe": one needs some data to verify the claim. Absent this ability the position cannot be considered science.
    Creationism is not a sciences, it's a theory based on social science.

    You could also study why religions have developed at all, and why so many have a similar view on the creation. It has nothing to do with faith. You seems coming back to this faith dependency, which has no scientific value what so ever in your way of seeing things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Height isn't a mental state. In my earlier post I wrote that law cannot create reality or belief. The height example was meant to demonstrat that passing a law cannot change the height of a people. You didn't understand my point, but instead wrote on citizenship standards. I didn't respond since this wasn't critical.
    Actually I already guessed that height is not a mental state....

    Actually, passing a law can determine the height of people.
    Example:
    All Indonesians are 6 ft tall or taller.
    This means that people that are less than 6 ft are not Indonesians. This has been practiced in many countries. You could call it apartheid for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    This doesn't follow. Because law cannot create a belief, it doesn't follow that belief is therefore irrelevant. People blowing themselves up on subways would seem to demonstrate the point.
    Actually law can create belief.

    Example:
    You use a helmet because you believe that it will save you in an accident.
    A law is there to create this belief. If you don't believe this you will be punished.
    If you argue that people use helmet because they are afraid of being punished, you can't prove it. You actually don't know if everyone believe in using a helmet or because they are afraid being punished.

    Now apply this to religion.

    Example:
    If you don't believe in God, you will be expelled from the religion.
    Does all the members of the religion believe in God or are they afraid of being expelled ?

    People blowing themselves up on subways might do this because they are afraid of being expelled or punished by a law or force larger than the normal legal system or even death itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    This introduction of quantification doesn't help your case.
    I am just trying to find a way to make you understand that the mental state, faith, is not something that you can use in your argumentation. It's not possible to quantify, actually not even possible to prove that it's present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    You have repeatedly claimed "objectivity" and "reality" as the mantra for your position, but on three distinct points where there is a clear standard you have not been able to come to terms with the facts. These cases were/are:

    Creationism: the wiki article (as demonstrated), indicates a position arguing for a God as the source of the universe, but you defer.

    Islam: this is defined by the Five Pillars. The first is the Shahada (as demonstrated), yet you defer.

    Indonesia's Constitution: you claimed the Constitution states "one must believe in God in live in Indonesia". Again I showed you the actual text and the phrase is missing. Again you deferred.

    This pattern is condemning for one who appeals of 'objectivity'. Objectivity means accommodating the real state of things, not holding doggedly to a pet position.
    Creationism: The word is as you say depending on a God. I don't defer that. What I do defer is that the God doesn't have to be absolute. Wikipedia is a bit grey on this if you read in on God.

    Islam: I defer that a muslim is not a muslim due to his faith, since the faith can not be measured or be proven. I consider Islam a real system and not a product of faith.

    Indonesian Constitution: The phrase is not missing, neither is the meaning. I do agree that it is not logical though.

    I disagree that my position is a pet position. I do believe that your position is a fundamentalistic position though.

  8. #188
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    An adjective requires something from the noun to maintain meaning, but that something is not sufficient to allow a direct tie?
    We all need to take English lessons, oooo, great master.....

    What was the subject again ??

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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    A small note:

    At the CIA site the following is said on the composition of members of religions in US:

    Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10%

    According to this only 10% of the Americans don't have any faith. Would this be accurate ? This forum would indicate something different....

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    We all need to take English lessons, oooo, great master.....

    What was the subject again ??

    This IS the subject that the thread is about. Understanding the words being used is crucial to this arguement.
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    A small note:

    At the CIA site the following is said on the composition of members of religions in US:

    Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10%

    According to this only 10% of the Americans don't have any faith. Would this be accurate ? This forum would indicate something different....

    Are you serious?
    You are basing your interpretation of national belief on (mainly) incredibly young internet users who are into "Total War" and tend to argue about things to a fault? The environment of questioning is not conducive to Theism or Religion in general (from my opinion). I am 22 and live in New York. I am an atheist, yet i feel as though I am in the minority. Of my age group, maybe not, but even in a bastion of atheism there is still much faith. Those C.I.A. figures would lead me, instead of making a statement about its innacuracy, to thinking about the 10% "none" group.

    Why would there be a "none" selection if people who were raised with a religion were expected to identify with that same religion irrespective of belief? Oh, that is right, they wouldn't because many people realize that that would be absurd.

    Also - if you speak to some atheists, eventually an inkling of a belief in a creator or intelligent design theory creeps out (or something that rationalizes their moral code). Myself included, although it is based soely on a non-scientific empiricism (if that isn't an oxymoron)
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 07-22-2005 at 12:44.
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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    People blowing themselves up on subways might do this because they are afraid of being expelled or punished by a law or force larger than the normal legal system or even death itself.
    The very call-sign of extremism; the lack of sufficient faith. Hence the compulsory element of doing something extra.
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
    The very call-sign of extremism; the lack of sufficient faith. Hence the compulsory element of doing something extra.
    I cannot see how that act could be considered as one stemming from a lack of faith as a rule.
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    I cannot see how that act could be considered as one stemming from a lack of faith as a rule.
    Maybe I should have highlighted what I was commenting on:
    "People blowing themselves up on subways might do this because they are afraid of being expelled or punished by a law or force larger than the normal legal system or even death itself".
    The very notion that they are afraid of not gaining what they aspire to, compel them to do more than what is required using illegitimate means. This is extremism.
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
    Maybe I should have highlighted what I was commenting on:
    "People blowing themselves up on subways might do this because they are afraid of being expelled or punished by a law or force larger than the normal legal system or even death itself".
    The very notion that they are afraid of not gaining what they aspire to, compel them to do more than what is required using illegitimate means. This is extremism.

    I agree, but when someone sacrifices their own life according to the laws of the faith in which they practice (not necessarily Islam, but FAITH doesnt have to come from the Quran only), that is not showing a lack of faith in a belief held. If one is a Christian BELIEVER and murders for fun - they may still have FAITH that they will go to hell and attempt to do things later in life to avoid their destination. This does not mean that they do not have FAITH, but that they do not believe that they are going to heaven. I am not saying it is the same, but i hope that i am not arguing a seperate issue.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 07-22-2005 at 21:05.
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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    :You might have a point when arguing that I am not talking about creationism...
    Good, we agree.

    Your own notions are your own and not my present concern.


    Why trailer ?
    Literary flare.



    You only use a definition that supports your position. In other discussions, you will see things further. For you this debate is more about winning the debate then actually penetrate the actual issue.
    I use standard definitions for the reasons I mentioned: to maintain a point of contact i.e. clarity, nothing more.


    Posted by Pindar
    Now you ask: "what is religion beyond faith"? I don't think religion is dependant on faith to be identified as a system. The faith (belief) is a requirement for one to be a practitioner.


    Just what I have been arguing (the bold text). I can agree that to be a practitioner you need faith, but to be a member, your faith is irrelevant.
    My position has been membership is irrelevant without belief.



    So a statement that says you believe is actually sufficient to prove the faith ? If the world would be that simple....
    Of course! If I ask someone: "Do you believe in religion X" and they say "Yes". I believe them. Their statement is sufficient.



    Creationism is not a sciences, it's a theory based on social science.
    I don't know what the second clause is supposed to mean. Social science, as indicated by the noun, claims to be science. I agree with the first clause.

    You could also study why religions have developed at all, and why so many have a similar view on the creation. It has nothing to do with faith
    I agree.



    Actually, passing a law can determine the height of people.
    Example:
    All Indonesians are 6 ft tall or taller.
    This means that people that are less than 6 ft are not Indonesians. This has been practiced in many countries. You could call it apartheid for example.


    Actually law can create belief.

    Example:
    You use a helmet because you believe that it will save you in an accident.
    A law is there to create this belief. If you don't believe this you will be punished.
    If you argue that people use helmet because they are afraid of being punished, you can't prove it. You actually don't know if everyone believe in using a helmet or because they are afraid being punished.
    Neither of these examples follow. A law cannot make someone a certain height. One could codify citizenship based on height, but that is a separate issue.
    Law cannot make someone believe a thing either. People may wear a proscribed helmet for a host of reasons: they don't want a ticket, they want to be protected, they think its a smart fashion choice etc. The point is the law cannot force the belief.

    Religious motivations are not my concern. If someone wants to be identified with a certain faith, they must believe in that faith to be so identified.


    I am just trying to find a way to make you understand that the mental state, faith, is not something that you can use in your argumentation. It's not possible to quantify, actually not even possible to prove that it's present.
    This is wrong. I can prove someone believes in a thing, by asking them.



    Creationism: The word is as you say depending on a God.
    Good this is settled.

    Islam: I defer that a muslim is not a muslim due to his faith, since the faith can not be measured or be proven.
    It can be demonstrated by asking. That is all that is required.

    Indonesian Constitution: The phrase is not missing
    Show me where the Indonesian Constitution says: "one must believe in God in live in Indonesia"
    Last edited by Pindar; 07-22-2005 at 21:51.

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  17. #197
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    A small note:

    At the CIA site the following is said on the composition of members of religions in US:

    Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10%

    According to this only 10% of the Americans don't have any faith. Would this be accurate ? This forum would indicate something different....
    All the studies I have seen on religiousity in the U.S. indicate the number of non-believers is quite small. Perhaps even less than the 10% figure.

    This forum has a rather large number of atheists and agnostics. This may be due to a certain failure of education.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

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  18. #198
    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    A small note:

    According to this only 10% of the Americans don't have any faith. Would this be accurate ? This forum would indicate something different....
    Like half the americans here are also libralterians(sp). So you think that is proportional to the U.S.?

  19. #199
    robotica erotica Member Colovion's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    I hear jews created the bagel. I love bagels. I also notice that a large portion of Jews are hilarious. I love Seinfeld.

    So I must love Jews. :D
    robotica erotica

  20. #200
    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Bah, I'm going on vacation to the Carolinas to visit relatives and then up into Fairfax...I'll try to think of something to argue w/o admitting that I'm using different definitions of Jewish and trying to link them:P Wish me luck.

  21. #201
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    All the studies I have seen on religiousity in the U.S. indicate the number of non-believers is quite small. Perhaps even less than the 10% figure.

    This forum has a rather large number of atheists and agnostics. This may be due to a certain failure of education.
    And they are all scientists.....

  22. #202
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    This IS the subject that the thread is about.
    So the actual membership in a religion is irrelevant ? You must be a teacher or something....

  23. #203
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanamori
    Bah, I'm going on vacation to the Carolinas to visit relatives and then up into Fairfax...I'll try to think of something to argue w/o admitting that I'm using different definitions of Jewish and trying to link them:P Wish me luck.
    Have fun.

    Don't drink the water.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

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  24. #204
    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    And they are all scientists.....
    now that is far from the truth.

    btw, you seemed to have casually not answered pindar's last post. Wise move.

  25. #205
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    And they are all scientists.....
    Or they're all pretending to be scientists.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

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  26. #206
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Literary flare.
    Oh, so just nonsense....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    My position has been membership is irrelevant without belief.

    Of course! If I ask someone: "Do you believe in religion X" and they say "Yes". I believe them. Their statement is sufficient.
    Interesting. So a religion is built on a statement, which doesn't have to be verified. I wouldn't really call that faith. It's just a symbolic statement in other words. You have just proven my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Neither of these examples follow. A law cannot make someone a certain height. One could codify citizenship based on height, but that is a separate issue.
    Law cannot make someone believe a thing either. People may wear a proscribed helmet for a host of reasons: they don't want a ticket, they want to be protected, they think its a smart fashion choice etc. The point is the law cannot force the belief.
    Yes, it can. It's done daily in China. It was done daily in Iraq. You have stated that belief is proven by asking. The response sets the fact. If you hold a gun to somebodys head and ask him: If you don't believe in God I will shoot you, do you believe in God ?
    Same thing with law. You get the answer you want, depending on how you ask the question.
    If you claim that faith is proven with a question, then law can determine the faith through law enforcement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Religious motivations are not my concern. If someone wants to be identified with a certain faith, they must believe in that faith to be so identified.
    Actually you have just stated that they only have to say they believe in the faith. Their actual belief is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    This is wrong. I can prove someone believes in a thing, by asking them.
    How do you know they are telling the truth ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    It can be demonstrated by asking. That is all that is required.
    And if they get something in return for giving you the answer you desire, would they still be muslims ? (eg. missionaries)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Show me where the Indonesian Constitution says: "one must believe in God in live in Indonesia"
    Knock yourself out.... Indonesian Law on Religion

    This in English gives you a hint on why it's so incoherent.. Indonesian Legal System

  27. #207
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Atlantis
    now that is far from the truth.

    btw, you seemed to have casually not answered pindar's last post. Wise move.
    Not at all, just needed some time to get a source for Indonesian law online.....

  28. #208
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Or they're all pretending to be scientists.
    Not as long as they believe....

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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    Not at all, just needed some time to get a source for Indonesian law online.....

    okay, it just looked suspicious that you posted without answering his main post. my mistake,

  30. #210
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Jew

    Posted by Pindar
    My position has been membership is irrelevant without belief.
    Of course! If I ask someone: "Do you believe in religion X" and they say "Yes". I believe them. Their statement is sufficient.


    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    Interesting. So a religion is built on a statement, which doesn't have to be verified. I wouldn't really call that faith. It's just a symbolic statement in other words. You have just proven my point.
    I think your confused. What you wrote doesn't fit with what I posted. Religion is a system. As such it can be studied, discussed, ignored what have you. To be a practitioner one has to believe in the religion. To know whether someone believes they can be asked. The answer is verification.


    Yes, it can. It's done daily in China. It was done daily in Iraq. You have stated that belief is proven by asking. The response sets the fact. If you hold a gun to somebodys head and ask him: If you don't believe in God I will shoot you, do you believe in God ?
    I'm not sure what the pronoun is referring to. I don't know if you are trying to say Chinese and Iraqi law create height, belief or both. Regardless, this is not correct. Coercion is not belief.



    Posted by Pindar
    Religious motivations are not my concern. If someone wants to be identified with a certain faith, they must believe in that faith to be so identified.


    Actually you have just stated that they only have to say they believe in the faith. Their actual belief is irrelevant.
    Please try and focus on what I write. Religiosity is tied to belief. To know whether one believes they can be asked.



    How do you know they are telling the truth ?
    You don't. If someone wants to lie they can.



    And if they get something in return for giving you the answer you desire, would they still be muslims ? (eg. missionaries)
    If someone wants to lie or deceive they can. It does not change the basic rubric that practitioners are defined by belief. Someone who lies by saying they believe in religion X can be reasonably considered a believer regardless of the reality. Whether I or any one else know the truth isn't really a factor. If after so many years that same person came forward and said: "I didn't really believe and still don't" then one simply knows they are not a believer of religion X and that's OK too.



    knock yourself out.... Indonesian Law on Religion

    This in English gives you a hint on why it's so incoherent.. Indonesian Legal System
    My good fellow. Recall your position, you said the Indonesian Constitution says: "one must believe in God to live in Indonesia". The focus is on this foundational legal document not the legal system in general. I have provided the Indonesian Constitution. No such statement exists. This mistake is indicative of a general pattern. You seem to want to argue things beyond the actual issue at hand.
    Last edited by Pindar; 07-23-2005 at 09:08.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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