Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 51

Thread: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

  1. #1

    Default Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    cnn.com -

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- The United States' image is so tattered overseas two years after the Iraq invasion that communist China is viewed more favorably than the U.S. in many long-time Western European allies, an international poll has found.

    The poor image persists even though the Bush administration has been promoting freedom and democracy throughout the world in recent months -- which many viewed favorably -- and has sent hundreds of millions of dollars in relief aid to Indian Ocean nations hit by the devastating December 26 tsunami.

    "It's amazing when you see the European public rating the United States so poorly, especially in comparison with China," said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, which surveyed public opinion in 16 countries, including the United States.

    In Britain, almost two-thirds of Britons, 65 percent, saw China favorably, compared with 55 percent who held a positive view of the United States.

    In France, 58 percent had an upbeat view of China, compared with 43 percent who felt that way about the U.S. The results were nearly the same in Spain and the Netherlands.

    The United States' favorability rating was lowest among three Muslim nations which are also U.S. allies -- Turkey, Pakistan and Jordan -- where only about one-fifth of those polled viewed the U.S. in a positive light.

    Only India and Poland were more upbeat about the United States, while Canadians were just as likely to see China favorably as they were the U.S.

    The poll found suspicion and wariness of the United States in many countries where people question the war in Iraq and are growing wary of the U.S.-led campaign against terrorism.

    "The Iraq war has left an enduring impression on the minds of people around the world in ways that make them very suspicious of U.S. intentions and makes the effort to win hearts and minds far more difficult," said Shibley Telhami, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.

    The overseas image of the United States slipped sharply after the Iraq invasion in 2003, the Pew polling found, and it has not rebounded in Western European countries like Britain, France, Germany and Spain.

    However the U.S. image has bounced back in Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim country which benefited from U.S. aid to tsunami victims, as well as in India and Russia.

    Support for the U.S.-led war on terror has dipped in Western countries like Britain, France, Germany, Canada and Spain, while it remains low in the Muslim countries surveyed like Pakistan, Turkey and Jordan.

    "The position of the United States as the one surviving superpower is to be assertive in responding in a world of terrorism. But in the rest of the world, there is a great wariness about that," said John Danforth, the former Republican senator from Missouri who also was U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. He is now a St. Louis attorney.

    The poll found a positive reaction in European countries to President George W. Bush's campaign for more democracy in countries around the world. People in Muslim countries were wary of the U.S. campaign, but supportive of the idea of democracy in their own countries.

    Danforth said the attitudes in the Mideast about democracy were a bright spot.

    "We should keep plugging away on democracy," Danforth said. "But we need to do a better job of communicating what we're trying to do."

    The survey found that a majority of people in most countries say the United States does not take the interests of other countries into account when making international policy decisions.

    It also found most would like to see another country get as much military power as the United States, though few want China to play that role.

    People in most countries were more inclined to say the war in Iraq has made the world a more dangerous place. Non-U.S. residents who had unfavorable views of the United States were most likely to cite Bush as the reason rather than a general problem with America.

    The polls were taken in various countries from late April to the end of May with samples of about 1,000 in most countries, with more interviewees in India and China and slightly less than 1,000 in the European countries. The margin of sampling error ranged from 2 percentage points to 4 percentage points, depending on the sample size.
    We(the US) need to start focusing on new alliances around the world - primarily in Asia and Eastern Europe.

    Its pretty clear the old transatlantic alliances are over. Blame Bush, American Arrogance, whatever - but whats done is done.

    Frankly, I dont shed any tears over this hatred of America. What is scary is the favorability of China. We need to reinforce our position with that country and isolate Europe.

  2. #2
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Lisbon,Portugal
    Posts
    4,952

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    cnn.com -



    We(the US) need to start focusing on new alliances around the world - primarily in Asia and Eastern Europe.

    Its pretty clear the old transatlantic alliances are over. Blame Bush, American Arrogance, whatever - but whats done is done.

    Frankly, I dont shed any tears over this hatred of America. What is scary is the favorability of China. We need to reinforce our position with that country and isolate Europe.
    again....it has been said in these boards many times.....people keep getting the concepts of "allies" and "yes-men" confused...
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
    -Josh Homme
    "That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
    - Calvin

  3. #3

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Did you read the article? This has nothing to do with yes men. Many of our old allies, especially Europe, simply dont like the US anymore. Since these countries are democracies - that dislike will soon show itself in foreign policy -as it did over Iraq.

  4. #4
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Lisbon,Portugal
    Posts
    4,952

    Wink Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    Did you read the article? This has nothing to do with yes men. Many of our old allies, especially Europe, simply dont like the US anymore. Since these countries are democracies - that dislike will soon show itself in foreign policy -as it did over Iraq.

    and did you read this part of the article?

    "Non-U.S. residents who had unfavorable views of the United States were most likely to cite Bush as the reason rather than a general problem with America."

    the people in these countryīs are your allies....like i said...they are not yes men....if they donīt like the US foreign policy...they will speak up against it....that doesnīt mean that they hate the united states or americans......i donīt know anyone that hates america..save for a couple of morons(and letīs face it there are morons in every country) but i know a lot of people that donīt buy Bushīs excuses and his decisions.....what are these people suposed to do?...politelly agree just so not to hurt american feeling because we are allies?

    itīs simple really....when you do things that displease your allies...you canīt expect them to support you...and to think they will is just foolish...
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
    -Josh Homme
    "That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
    - Calvin

  5. #5
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,546

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    WHy people dont like US policy here in Europe is YOU cant force democracy to countries that have not customed in democracy.You know there were saying long time a go :Make the world England.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  6. #6
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    The base of Yggdrasil
    Posts
    3,710

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Quote Originally Posted by kagemusha
    WHy people dont like US policy here in Europe is YOU cant force democracy to countries that have not customed in democracy.You know there were saying long time a go :Make the world England.
    How do you explain Japan?

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

  7. #7
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,546

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    What about Japan?
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  8. #8
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,674

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    How do you explain Japan?
    Japan had a democracy prior to WWII. It wasn't planted their by an external power after WWII.

    Much like Germany it went democracy (then riots) then Military Law (quell the riots/burning of government buildings) then expansionistic rule (kind of).

    So the people in Japan had prior experience to democracy, it also had the social infrastructure (education of the people) to have a viable democracy at that scale.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  9. #9
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    The base of Yggdrasil
    Posts
    3,710

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    Japan had a democracy prior to WWII. It wasn't planted their by an external power after WWII.

    Much like Germany it went democracy (then riots) then Military Law (quell the riots/burning of government buildings) then expansionistic rule (kind of).

    So the people in Japan had prior experience to democracy, it also had the social infrastructure (education of the people) to have a viable democracy at that scale.
    When was this democratic age? I hope you're not thinking of the Taisho Period.

    The German reference is also hardly compelling: a democracy that doesn't last even two decades and was the product of a lost war is hardly a natural outgrowth.


    What is interesting about this comment:

    "WHy people dont like US policy here in Europe is YOU cant force democracy to countries that have not customed in democracy. You know there were saying long time a go :Make the world England. "

    is it seems to be making a practical argument: it is impossible to plant democracy, while also implying some kind of moral umbridge that one would make the attempt. One of the underpinnings of democracy is the notion that men are equal and thus totalitarianism is unjust. If one agrees with that notion then why would the objection to the spread of freedom? Very interesting.
    Last edited by Pindar; 06-24-2005 at 05:46.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

  10. #10
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,674

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Taisho period counts. It shows that the people where on their own accord trending towards democracy. As it stands it is a longer period of democratic process then say Indonesia has experienced so far.

    Freedom requires vigilance... this requires the citizens input.

    Democracy requires the citizens to have a state of mind and training. It requires a responsible and responsive populace to make a viable long term democracy. That is why so many of them fail in the short term. A set of fearful circumstances has many lesser democracies falling back into more draconian governments either communist or dictatorships in nature.

    As such if they requirement is to install democracy then expect to babysit the nation for a generation or four so that the people may have the education instilled and the fear or reprisal removed.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  11. #11
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    The base of Yggdrasil
    Posts
    3,710

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    Taisho period counts. It shows that the people where on their own accord trending towards democracy.
    I'm confused, you say it counts and it was trending towards democracy. So, do you consider Taisho Japan a democracy or not? If so, why? What criteria are you using?




    Freedom requires vigilance... this requires the citizens input.

    Democracy requires the citizens to have a state of mind and training. It requires a responsible and responsive populace to make a viable long term democracy. That is why so many of them fail in the short term. A set of fearful circumstances has many lesser democracies falling back into more draconian governments either communist or dictatorships in nature.

    As such if they requirement is to install democracy then expect to babysit the nation for a generation or four so that the people may have the education instilled and the fear or reprisal removed.
    I don't have any real issues with the above, but if my nation is doing the "babysitting" why does that deserve the ire of some other non-committal nation? The critique doesn't seem to fit.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

  12. #12
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Canada west coast
    Posts
    2,276

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Non-U.S. residents who had unfavorable views of the United States were most likely to cite Bush as the reason rather than a general problem with America.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    cnn.com -

    We(the US) need to start focusing on new alliances around the world - primarily in Asia and Eastern Europe.

    Its pretty clear the old transatlantic alliances are over. Blame Bush, American Arrogance, whatever - but whats done is done.

    Frankly, I dont shed any tears over this hatred of America. What is scary is the favorability of China. We need to reinforce our position with that country and isolate Europe.
    It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words, "And this, too, shall pass"

    Abraham Lincoln, address to the Wisconsin State Agricultural Society, September 30th, 1869

    What's done is not done! It can and should be repaired. With Bush out of office it can begin, and hopefully with a republican administration more along the lines of his father or Reagan. I would hope the more dopey members of the current regime get the boot. I cannot imagine that the next administration could possibly be worse, or more bungling than the current one.

    There is no hatred of the United States and your arguments focus on what president Bush Junior has done and the negative reaction to his conduct. That is president Bush, not America. The two are not one and the same, as people have made very clear.

    It's a verbal game of bait-and-switch to suggest that if we do not like Bush that we hate America.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  13. #13
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,674

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    I'm confused, you say it counts and it was trending towards democracy. So, do you consider Taisho Japan a democracy or not? If so, why? What criteria are you using?


    I don't have any real issues with the above, but if my nation is doing the "babysitting" why does that deserve the ire of some other non-committal nation? The critique doesn't seem to fit.
    Pindar-san,

    Would like to reply but been fighting flames, now off for a weekend of shopping of cots, baby blankets and the other requirements.

    In short I am using the criteria of what was happening at the time.

    Nor is your nation look like it is going to do the "babysitting" long term, if it is not prepared to look after the child till it is eighteen it shouldn't of got knocked up in the first place kind of answer.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  14. #14
    Member Member Efrem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    414

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Of course democracy can be implanted and so it should be.

    You live in a democracy where you are free to do what you wish, yet you feel that others don't deserve that right because they aren't educated enough???????

    What is the left coming to these days.....
    Viva La Rasa!!!

  15. #15
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Riding Shai-Hulud
    Posts
    5,346

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    I think we just use different standards rating China and the US.

    China is moving in a direction we like, the US isn't. It's quite simple actually, the masses are fickle
    Yes, Iraq is peaceful. Go to sleep now. - Adrian II

  16. #16
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Riding Shai-Hulud
    Posts
    5,346

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrem
    Of course democracy can be implanted and so it should be.

    You live in a democracy where you are free to do what you wish, yet you feel that others don't deserve that right because they aren't educated enough???????

    What is the left coming to these days.....
    Some countries/people seem to have real difficulty with the concept of democracy. Even in the US you have people who think the majority should be able to dictate everything to all.

    Democracy is a difficult concept, and pretty fragile when it is first introduced. Some people wanted Washington to rule as a monarch when the US federation was established

    I wish there was a clear road to democracy but there isn't, and even if you have a democracy, you have to maintain a balance between extreme liberalism (and libertarianism) and socialism or it will all go down the drain again.
    Yes, Iraq is peaceful. Go to sleep now. - Adrian II

  17. #17
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    3,029

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    How do you explain Japan?
    Atomic Bomb.... Works wonders...

  18. #18
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,674

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrem
    Of course democracy can be implanted and so it should be.

    You live in a democracy where you are free to do what you wish, yet you feel that others don't deserve that right because they aren't educated enough???????

    What is the left coming to these days.....
    Seeds need soil.

    Democracy needs a lower and middle class that is pushing for more political clout instead of just leaving it to the upper class.

    This requires that the middle class has enough economic clout and ability as does the lower class.

    Try and name a viable democracy that doesn't have an active middle class?

    Not many in the mix.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  19. #19
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    8,168

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Alliances shift as countries change leaders, policies, and economics.

    Friends stay friends.

    As much as some would like to cite the relationship between Canada and the US as a fairytale of sweet talk and backstabbing, nothing could be further from the truth.

    Even as our governments changed from left to right and back, through disagreements that bordered on screaming matches, past wars fought by one nation or the other or both, the ties that bind never swayed past the surface level. The undercurrent of inseperable friendship was always there. Not because it had to be, but simply because it was.

    Does the US give Canada s***? Yes. Does Canada give the US s***? Yes. Do we always end up seeing more of what ties us together than what tears us apart? Yes. Sounds like true friendship to me.

    For some reason there are people who find great value in cornering themselves and declaring that the whole world hates them, like a five year-old standing crying, saying his mother hates him because she won't let him have a cookie before dinner. But the relationship behind the disagreement ecipses all when push comes to shove and then people see who their friends really are.

    Besides, why on Earth, when hating the US seems to be a global sport, the easy thing to do, and even a way to meet cute protesting hippie chicks, would many millions of us Canadians stand up in front of the crowd and say "God Bless America!"?

    So, my American isolationist right-wing friends, get your collective heads out of your a$$es and see the light of day.
    Unto each good man a good dog

  20. #20
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    I think the lefties are right.
    There is no need to agree in everything to be friends, maybe you should just sometimes search the fault on your side, itīs not always the others who are wrong. Both sides need to be able to forgive in a true friendship and problems can be discussed.

    BTW: Why is the US called a super-power? If you conquer just two countries and then run out of men to occupy them, I wouldnīt consider that a super-power. That doesnīt mean their military is weak, but in my opinion a super-power should be stronger.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  21. #21
    |LGA.3rd|General Clausewitz Member Kaiser of Arabia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Munich...I wish...
    Posts
    4,788

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    cnn.com -



    We(the US) need to start focusing on new alliances around the world - primarily in Asia and Eastern Europe.

    Its pretty clear the old transatlantic alliances are over. Blame Bush, American Arrogance, whatever - but whats done is done.

    Frankly, I dont shed any tears over this hatred of America. What is scary is the favorability of China. We need to reinforce our position with that country and isolate Europe.
    When it comes to war with China, there are only a few nations that will stand with us, surprisingly. England, Germany, Israel, and Canada (and Austria as they are basically Germany's b***h right now.) That's it. But, you know what? It's enough. Because there is no nation on earth nearly as powerful as the US. Name one other nation who, in 24 hours, can unload 10,000 United States marines or soldiers, anywhere on earth. You can't. So, personally, let Europe hate us. The days of us saving their arses is over. And I hope Russia invades the EU, they'd win. And America wouldn't be there to save them. Too bad for you guys.

    Why do you hate Freedom?
    The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.

  22. #22
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Posts
    7,588

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    I have a hard time saying "Canada" and the "United States" are friends. The Canadian people are friends with the United States people certainly. And that doesn't apply to just Canada & the United States.

    A nation is an abstract concept. It's a data structure that comprises: a people; a history; a culture; a political system; a governing body; predominant religions; and many smaller facets. I don't think you can speak of "Canada" or the "USA" in human terms.

    That's why when speaking of countries themselves, you're better off sticking to abstract concepts as well, such as alliances, not friendships.

    But, I would say Canada is one of our better allies, and the Canadian people are some of our best friends in the world. They may irritate the hell out of us sometimes, but isn't it always the best friends that provoke the biggest reaction? If Uruguay came out and denounced US foreign policy, who cares... but when Canada does, there's a lot more sting to it. Precisely because we are so close.

    As far as Europeans and Canadians preferring China to the United States, of course they do! 1) There's a lot of resentment in the world against the US for being the strongest, most successful country and 2) China is doing everything it can to please the countries of the G8 to get an invite to join. They may do some nasty things domestically, but, for the most part, they're courting the western world and this just shows people can be buttered up.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  23. #23
    PapaSmurf Senior Member Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Alps Mountain
    Posts
    1,655

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    And

    3) some recent history of invading countries whereas Canadians and some Europeans thought it was a bad idea.

    But prefering China to the US... That's surprising... I got no issue saying I disagree and dislike current US policy. But I sure don't like Chinese one better.

    Louis,
    [FF] Louis St Simurgh / The Simurgh



  24. #24
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,902

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
    And

    3) some recent history of invading countries whereas Canadians and some Europeans thought it was a bad idea.

    But prefering China to the US... That's surprising... I got no issue saying I disagree and dislike current US policy. But I sure don't like Chinese one better.

    Louis,
    Consider the average person, then ask yourself how much you hear about China these days (outside economics). You'll need to remind people how bad they (the Chinese goverment) are, or else they will forget.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

    Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
    Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
    TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED

  25. #25

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    The idea that you can like the American people but hate Bush flew out the window last November really.

    Even after the Iraq war, he was elected again. I guess it would be fine to say "We dont have a problem with 48% of you.", but the majority re-affirmed his policies in the voting booth.

  26. #26
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    France
    Posts
    3,074

    Default Re : Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    We hear about China policy pretty much everyday.
    As soon as a company move to China, or to Asia, our media bring in the "Chinese workers work 12 hours a day for nothing", which more or less means "China sucks"
    Not to speak about the overused death penalty, the 2006 (is that 2008?) Olympic games, the Tawain-Continental China issue, the Japan-Continental China issue, the limited freedom of speech, and all that.

    Still we hear more often about US than China, but China is still an important issue in Europe (or maybe only in France)

    The idea that you can like the American people but hate Bush flew out the window last November really.

    Even after the Iraq war, he was elected again. I guess it would be fine to say "We dont have a problem with 48% of you.", but the majority re-affirmed his policies in the voting booth.
    So what ? Our stupid president was elected with 82%, and that doesn't mean that 82% of the population support him (right now, it would be more like ~30%).
    And I quite hope that the 52% of american voters who did chose Bush are not ex-drunkards, liars and ignorant biggots (that may sound harsh, but that's like Bush is seen by the major part of the world).
    Last edited by Meneldil; 06-24-2005 at 15:37.

  27. #27
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Posts
    7,588

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    I'm certainly not Meneldil. I'm no quitter, I'm a current drunkard!

    And Panzer, you can't directly link voting for somebody and saying they agree 100% with their policies. If for no other reason, I'm sure a percentage of Americans voted for Bush with the idea "As bad as he is, he's gotta be better than Kerry".
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 06-24-2005 at 15:55.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  28. #28
    PapaSmurf Senior Member Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Alps Mountain
    Posts
    1,655

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Let me guess... Trapped in Boston airport again?

    Louis,
    [FF] Louis St Simurgh / The Simurgh



  29. #29
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Posts
    7,588

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Hehehe, no I'm actually home 'at work'. I'm waiting for a simulation to run on my Sun workstation, so I'm popping in and out.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  30. #30
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    8,168

    Default Re: Shifting Alliances and Shifty Allies

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    The idea that you can like the American people but hate Bush flew out the window last November really.
    Tell that to my right-wing Republican buddy in Texas who campaigned for Bush during the last election.

    He knows I'm a Liberal and I know he's a Conservative. But both of us are smart enough to see past our political differences and focus instead on the far more important things that we have in common.

    And your statement sounds dangerously close to "America is Bush and Bush is America."

    I swear I heard a statement like that somewhere before...
    Unto each good man a good dog

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO