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Thread: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

  1. #1
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    Venezuela News And Views

    Tuesday, May 31, 2005

    Maria Corina Machado of SUMATE received by President Bush

    The stunning news of the week, if not the quarter, is the reception today at the White House of Maria Corina Machado, the leader of SUMATE (1).


    Poise, class and dignity at the White House
    (interview of MCM with audio here)


    I learned it on the radio on my way to a dinner engagement. If I could not write about it earlier, I can assure you that the meal was even more delicious than it probably was. This is a stunning coup for SUMATE and some of Venezuela's opposition, and yet another stinging hit for Chavez who is not having a good time at all these recent days.

    Analysis of this spectacular move by the State Department will require days. So tonight this humble blogger, just arriving from a delicious meal will be brief in his speculations and analysis.

    The message is clear at several levels:

    * By receiving the leader of SUMATE the US declares that in Venezuela there is a problem with free and fair elections (to Hell with the Carter Center who somehow managed to convince Colin Powell that all was fine and dandy down here).
    * By receiving SUMATE, the most organized and efficient and democratic component of the Venezuelan opposition, the State Department sends a clear message to the opposition: be democratic, be organized, work hard, and we will help you if needed to make sure that elections are fair.
    * By receiving Maria Corina Machado, the US looks at the new class of Venezuelan politicians, modern folks, not encumbered by the weight of the corrupted past AND present.
    * And perhaps most important, by receiving Maria Corina Machado, likely political prisoner of Chavez, Bush goes beyond extending protection: he tells Chavez that all his B.S. of recent weeks is having no effect on the US administration who will chose its friends as it pleases. He also tells that he is really far from receiving chavistas at the White House where we suspect that more than one would love to be seen. Indeed, a few days ago the US suspended its visa to the High Court chief Omar Mora who was greatly upset about it. Today's visitor must be compared to the non-visitor who wanted to go himself to the White House to demand the skin of Posada. In other words, bluntly, the US tells that Chavez better watch out his foul mouth or further humiliations are in stock for him.


    And it hurts really bad in the chavista camp as a totally decomposed and hysterical Cilia Flores, a factor in the National Assembly, went out to say that Maria Corina Machado had better stay in the US, that she should be sent to trial for betrayal to the fatherland. The poor and deranged woman did not realize how idiotic, and revealing, her declarations were. And how they could easily be used against her cause in the US. For example such declarations could be used as an excuse not to extradite Posada Cariles since in a country with such deranged legislators justice is clearly impossible (2). Or it could be used to send Eva Golinger to jail under the Patriot Act as Ms. Golinger dealings are certainly not any less guilt free as the alleged ones of SUMATE that she so eagerly denounces. But we know that diplomacy is an alien concept to Chavez and even more to chavismo.

    Well, at least there is something good for Chavez there: tomorrow Venezuela will talk less about PDVSA and its corrupt and inefficient management. See Hugo, always a silver lining.

    __________________

    1) Story speedily translated by El Universal.

    2) At a moment, by the way, where Venezuela seems to have the greatest of difficulties to put together a dossier to ask for Posada's extradition. Indeed, the confusion in the Chavez camp is spectacular as some declare that the US is refusing to extradite Posada while the dossier has not even be sent complete to the US.... But rabble rousers seem to be in surnumerary these days.

    _________________

    Update: for some colorful local rejoicing, and to stress how important is the news of that visit for Venezuela, check the comment section of the Noticiero Digital thread. Venezuela's wit in display, to be compared to witless Cilia Flores and Iris Varela :-)
    LINK

    Im sure Jag will have something to say about this

    Wow sorry . How did I post this in the Arena. Mods do your duty.
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 06-25-2005 at 02:16.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    This is a stunning coup for SUMATE
    Is it as stunning as their failed coup ?
    Is it as stunning as this womans foriegn funded "voter registration" project ?
    Is it as stunning as their electoral and recall defeats ?
    Is it as stunning as the majority of the populations rejection of this group and its associates long history of corruption ?

    In other words, bluntly, the US tells that Chavez better watch out his foul mouth or further humiliations are in stock for him.
    In other words they are telling Chavez to be ready for another attempted coup .
    Supporting democracy all the way

  3. #3
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    My Venezuelan friend's were of mixed minds about Chavez during the coup because they had relatives on both sides in govt.

    Chavez is unstable. I've been listening to his statements on the more impartial news outlets from time to time, and his own words are frightening. He seems bent on picking a fight with the U.S. I don't know how long we can effectively ignore him if he keeps it ratcheting up. I think we did the right thing mostly staying out of the last coup. The situation was different then...

    I don't mind him being a populist leader despite his political leanings, and I won't argue that some reforms were/are needed. However, the guy is way over the top and seems to flirt with the militant revolutionary image too much. I hope he doesn't pull us in, but in light of some of his threats to start a nuclear program, if another coup happens or if there is a disputed election, I don't think we should be neutral.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  4. #4
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    My Venezuelan friend's were of mixed minds about Chavez during the coup because they had relatives on both sides in govt.

    Chavez is unstable. I've been listening to his statements on the more impartial news outlets from time to time, and his own words are frightening. He seems bent on picking a fight with the U.S. I don't know how long we can effectively ignore him if he keeps it ratcheting up. I think we did the right thing mostly staying out of the last coup. The situation was different then...

    I don't mind him being a populist leader despite his political leanings, and I won't argue that some reforms were/are needed. However, the guy is way over the top and seems to flirt with the militant revolutionary image too much. I hope he doesn't pull us in, but in light of some of his threats to start a nuclear program, if another coup happens or if there is a disputed election, I don't think we should be neutral.
    i like
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    i like
    Maybe you missed this part ....
    if another coup happens or if there is a disputed election, I don't think we should be neutral.
    America was not neutral last time ....Colin (learn to say your name properly) Powell went on national TV. AND SPOKE OVER DOCTORED TELEVISION PICTURES about how evil the regime was when the pictures really showed the results of when the coup plotters (as in the followers of this fine lady who was invited to meet George) were shooting at a rather large city square full of pro Chavez supporters .

    I might as well repeat ;
    Supporting democracy all the way

    edit .....The caps lock letters were the result of drunken fingers .....

    But it works

    Bloody hell that took me a hell of a long time to write
    Last edited by Tribesman; 06-26-2005 at 22:08.

  6. #6
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    Tribesman,

    Powell saying the US doesn't think much of Chavez on TV is hardly taking sides in the coup. Had the U.S. actually taken sides things would be far different now, and Chavez would probably be in Havana. Considering the timing, I think such action on our part would have been premature. Chavez speaks for a very large portion of the country that has been getting the shaft for many decades. Reforms are needed, and they are bound to upset the applecarts of business leaders around Venezuela and around the world who have taken advantage in the past. However, Chavez has moved well past this, to an openly militant, anti-US view, with all sorts of outright threats, including comments about wanting to work with Iran on a nuclear program. He is making trouble for his neighbors as well (if you believe them) supporting insurgents.

    So while I support democracy, if he personally takes too militant a stance and goes crazy nationalizing assets, supporting insurgencies, and making noise about a nuclear program, then at some point we get forced into taking sides militarily to support and protect our own interests. A barking dog is one thing. If he bites then put him down.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    Powell saying the US doesn't think much of Chavez on TV is hardly taking sides in the coup.
    That isn't what he said , he gave a press conference and was using film footage to back up his description of events , when the footage he was using was not what he was describing .

  8. #8
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Powell saying the US doesn't think much of Chavez on TV is hardly taking sides in the coup.
    That isn't what he said , he gave a press conference and was using film footage to back up his description of events , when the footage he was using was not what he was describing .
    And how does that change what I originally said? It doesn't. The U.S. largely stayed out of the coup and let it run its course.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  9. #9
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    Red, I am sorry but you are being so naive it is unreal.

    As to the article, no comments really, just confirms my disgust at the current US administration.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  10. #10
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    Did the Guardian ever offer any proof to go with their assertion that the CIA is behind every protest march in Venezuela there Jag?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  11. #11

    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    Well I don't know about the Guardian Don , but a quick look at US government funding to protest groups and coup plotters (like this fine lady who met George) should provide you with most of the answers .

  12. #12
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    I'm not arguing that we certainly help the opposition along. There's a long tradition of investing in political parties in other systems to make certain you get a friendly outcome. The PRC was one of of Clinton's biggest contributors.

    But Jag seems to think the only disgruntled people in Venezuela are CIA activists, or at least an article he linked in the Guardian did. There's still a bit of a chasm to be breached.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  13. #13
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    I will not pretend that all protests are funded by the CIA and the US, but a lot are. Chavez does have huge public support so when you see these 'huge protests!!!!!' shown on US media and others around the world, it is just astounding how blatant it is.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  14. #14
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    Red, I am sorry but you are being so naive it is unreal.
    If we had wanted Chavez gone. Really wanted him gone. He would have been gone. That's not naivete, that is reality.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  15. #15
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    I don't see why we shouldn't contribute to opposition groups. He uses us as a political whipping boy and tries to whip up anti-US sentiments. I can't think of any reason not to support his opposition. Makes a lot more sense to get the nutball removed through the political process.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  16. #16
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    Makes a lot more sense to get the nutball removed through the political process.
    Hey your speaking bad about one of Jags idols here. Watch your mouth. Id say hes more of a fruit cake.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  17. #17
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    Both of you guys are going to bring the wrath of Jag down upon you. Take it from somebody who knows, (from personal experience), Chavez is the 3rd rail for European Leftys. He can do no wrong.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  18. #18
    Member Member Spetulhu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush meets with Venezuela's opposition of Chavez

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    If we had wanted Chavez gone. Really wanted him gone. He would have been gone. That's not naivete, that is reality.
    But how obvious would it have been? US military advisors for people planning armed rebellion? US Aerial support for rebel troops? US Marines storming the Presidential Residence?
    If you're fighting fair you've made a miscalculation.

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