Soviet Union... an Evil Empire?

[the tokai]

Evil is a term describing that which is regarded as morally bad, intrinsically corrupt, wantonly destructive, inhumane, selfish, or wicked. In most cultures, the word is used to describe acts, thoughts, and ideas which are thought to (either directly or causally) bring about withering and death —the opposite of life.

Notice the underlined parts.

also:

Theories of Value ask 'What sorts of things are good?' Or: 'What does "good" mean?'

"If we had to give the most general, catch-all description of good things, then what would that description be?"

When that question is answered with "God", this is called "Summum bonum".

Many people believe that value theory is the most important area of philosophy. All religions and most philosophical movements have been concerned with it to some degree. It can define "good" and "bad" for a community or society. It affects everyone's life - maybe all life on Earth.

Goodness and value theory affects political economy, which sets relative valuations on factors of production. When governments decide what is good and to be encouraged, they cut taxes on those activities, remove regulations or laws, and provide subsidies. However, when they decide what is bad and to be discouraged, they pass laws to make it illegal and enforce them with violence, monopolize it to limit or control it, and make stern speeches on television.

[Don Corleone]

Is Usa evil? It have killed millions of indians and have stolen their lands. Is Spain evil? It have killed even more indians than Usa. Is Germany evi?...

I'am trying to say that nations aren't persons, they can't be evil. Only peoples can.
Stalin was evil, there is no daubs about that. But you can't blame whole Ussr for his murders.
So for the most of time Ussr wasn't evil.

My sentiments exactly. There were evil people in charge at times, but you can't call an entire nation, or an empire for that matter, 'evil'. The Soviet people weren't evil. The land wasn't evil. The culture and the history weren't evil. These are all part of the 'Soviet Union'. Generally speaking, I resist anthropomorphizing an abstract concept like a nation.

[Pindar]

Generally speaking, I resist anthropomorphizing an abstract concept like a nation.

So you would disagree with categorizing abstract concepts like: Nazism as evil, or rape as evil, or disco as evil? Any common noun can be a concept.

I'm not sure how you understand 'abstract concept', but a government is as 'real' as it gets insofar as it has power to impose force and impact people's lives. In the USSR's case this included the slaughter of tens of millions of people.

If you believe that evil exists and people are moral agents, why then can't the values of moral agents be categorized along moral lines?

Government is the institutionalizing of a value system.

[Don Corleone]

Aaaah, but we didn't say government. The question was if the CCCP was evil. I said a country cannot be evil, but it's government sure can, and in the case of Stalin, Kruschev and to a lesser extent Breshnev & Andropov, yeah, they were pretty evil.

Nazism is an idea and yes, of course ideas can be evil. I would definitely categorize nazism as evil.

Rape is an act, and above anything else, actions can certainly be evil, and this is one of the most.

Disco is an art form (and granted, it's REALLY stretching the definition), so i'd have say that as revolting, sick and twisted as I find it, I cannot describe it as evil.

[Steppe Merc]

What Don said. Certaintly some of the leaders were evil, but I don't think the whole country was...

[Pindar]

Aaaah, but we didn't say government. The question was if the CCCP was evil.

CCCP is the governement.

I said a country cannot be evil, but it's government sure can...

Nazism is an idea and yes, of course ideas can be evil. I would definitely categorize nazism as evil.

So you agree concepts can be evil?

Rape is an act, and above anything else, actions can certainly be evil, and this is one of the most.

Rape is an act. It is also a concept.

Disco is an art form (and granted, it's REALLY stretching the definition), so i'd have say that as revolting, sick and twisted as I find it, I cannot describe it as evil.

Disco not evil? Get thee behind me Satan! Evil spirits come out! I command thee!

( You didn't mention Country Music so there was probably one spirit. Now go lie down. The darkness should pass)

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

In 1940´s .The Dictatorical leaders of both Nazi Germany and Soviet Union were madmen but i could not blame every single citicen of those countries from beeing evil.

Exactly.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Nazism is an idea and yes, of course ideas can be evil. I would definitely categorize nazism as evil.

Socialism is evil? No, I wouldn't say that. I would say most socialists that the world has seen are evil or twisted. The idea, even of nazism, is fine. But when put into motion, Hitler's nazism was one of the most sick, twisted, and evil things ever to curse the Earth. I'm glad Germany has utterly rejected the Nazi party. Though it still exists, the government tunes it down and keeps it from power. I applaud my leaders for that.

[bmolsson]

That saying really doesn't apply to modern times when every event is MOSTLY accuratly recorded.

Well, assume that Japan would have beaten US in WWII. How do you think the atomic bombs would have been seen in history ??

[Ice]

Well, assume that Japan would have beaten US in WWII. How do you think the atomic bombs would have been seen in history ??

By the Japanese, who brain washed their citizens, as bad of course. Now, by the United States, who was beaten, a good effort to try to end the war.

[bmolsson]

Rape is an act. It is also a concept.

Please elaborate.....

[Proletariat]

Please elaborate.....

No funny lawsuit joke can be applied here as well?

[Byzantine Prince]

=Proletariat
No funny lawsuit joke can be applied here as well?
Rape is never a laughing matter, unless you're raping a clown.

[bmolsson]

[QUOTE=Proletariat]
No funny lawsuit joke can be applied here as well?[
/QUOTE]

Working on it. I am happy that you like the concept....

[bmolsson]

By the Japanese, who brain washed their citizens, as bad of course. Now, by the United States, who was beaten, a good effort to try to end the war.

The concept of brain washing it's citizen can easily be put on more or less any nation in the world. The preception of US by it's citizen isn't always based on logic and rationality. This perception is created by media and educational system. US is not evil, but it's not as good as many tries to tell you.......

[Ice]

The concept of brain washing it's citizen can easily be put on more or less any nation in the world. The preception of US by it's citizen isn't always based on logic and rationality. This perception is created by media and educational system. US is not evil, but it's not as good as many tries to tell you.......

Hmm, I think not. I know the facts, although I am slightly biased seeing that I was born here, but I still think the US does not brainwash. People are intelligent enough to come to their own conclusions.

[Spetulhu]

Hmm, I think not. I know the facts, although I am slightly biased seeing that I was born here, but I still think the US does not brainwash. People are intelligent enough to come to their own conclusions.

People might not come to any conclusions at all, or even care about it. There's so many news outlets available that you get sick of it after a while.

And on the subject of many news outlets, everyone gives their own version. People know that one of the stories must be true and select the one they like best.

The old KGB is said to have been green with envy at how easy governments in the west had it. Every Soviet citizen knew the Pravda was full of lies, but in the west everyone could select some news to believe in.

[Red Harvest]

but you can't call an entire nation, or an empire for that matter, 'evil'. The Soviet people weren't evil. The land wasn't evil. The culture and the history weren't evil. These are all part of the 'Soviet Union'. Generally speaking, I resist anthropomorphizing an abstract concept like a nation.

Do any peoples actually identify themselves as Soviet? To my knowledge, they are Russian, Ukrainian, etc, not "Soviet." They were "Soviets" only while ruled by the CCCP. (Would be interested to hear what the Easterners have to say on that specific point.) The "Evil Empire" was the Soviet Union/CCCP, not its constituent peoples. That seems obvious to me. I still see it as false argument to say this is a ruling on the peoples--calling them evil--same as it would be to defend Nazi Germany by saying that calling the Nazi govt evil would be equivalent to calling the German people evil.

Since we are discussing the govt as itself we are weighing what good it did vs. the bad. If you look far enough into the past of any modern nations you will find sustained periods of what are considered today evil acts (and they were often condemned internally at the time as well.) However, govts. and nations adapt and generally advance. Did the CCCP advance on the whole? I would argue that it regressed mightily under Stalin. It failed to really advance from his rule until it dissolved. It stopped committing some of his excesses against itself, but he had set the tone--one that ended up defining it.

And I don't find the bolshevik revolution itself to be "evil." It was a political/military uprising against an existing oppressive monarchy. When it ruled what it transformed into was an equally (or perhaps more) oppressive autocracy that was also an aggressive expansionist...and one that failed to advance its people at a pace similar to the rest of the world. The regime was far more bad than good, hence evil.

Much of this comes down to "what defines the govt/system" under discussion. Look at the U.S. for comparison. Overall, most would have trouble saying it has been oppressive to its citizens on average. Are there exceptions? You bet: slavery and the wars vs. the Indians are prime examples. Both of these are acknowledged as great evils today. However, do those define America? No, they were not central to what the nation was (and is) despite their large impact on her history.

[Red Harvest]

The old KGB is said to have been green with envy at how easy governments in the west had it. Every Soviet citizen knew the Pravda was full of lies, but in the west everyone could select some news to believe in.

Yes, but from reading comments by Russian citizens over the past years I've noticed a disturbing trend on one hand to say they couldn't believe anything the ex-Soviet govt. told them (and Pravda) but in the current time still accepting completely unsupported anti-west nonsense that was indistinguishable from old propaganda. I'm not sure if it is just hard to shake some of the "old mental programming", or they want to believe it, or if it is simply a case of relative inexperience picking through various forms of mass media to make their own judgements of what is credible. I lean towards this latter explanation, but it is just a guess. And a fourth explanation would be that they had been isolated from the West for long enough that it was an unknown quantity, and therefore harder for them to know when a report was credible or not compared to more local matters/leaders.

Reminds me of Arabs who believed the Iraqi information minister about the progress of the invasion. When he disappeared as the regime collapsed, I lost count of how many times I saw interviews of various Arabs who were disgusted at being fooled by the Arab press in the matter. (It spoke well of the individuals to me that they didn't just shrug it off, and were instead angry.)

[A.Saturnus]

Generally speaking, I resist anthropomorphizing an abstract concept like a nation.

I don`t think it`s an anthropomorphism. A state is an organisation and if we say that it has intentions, we`re not really making a metaphore. Rather the intentions of an organisation are a weighted sum of those individuals who hold power in that organisation. And when an organisation can have intentions, it also can be evil. I don`t think the statement "the SU was an evil empire" should be understood to imply that all people living there were evil. But as an organisation, as an entity that can be the carrier of intentional behaviour, it was something evil.

BTW, I think some words better remain unverbed.

[cegorach]

And I don't find the bolshevik revolution itself to be "evil." It was a political/military uprising against an existing oppressive monarchy.

I respect your opinion and I agree with most of this, but even you seem to be biased about the 'revolution' - simply there was no monarchy at that time and the military coup ( sp ?) which was indeed this 'revolution' not only overthrown the existing quite democratic government, but in fact erased all treces of democracy which was beeing born.
The Bolshevics thrown away, shot the representatives sent from all around the country to create the new constitution months later after the 'revolution' and saized power guarding it against ANYBODY who challenged their power - in fact 'anybody' meant all others and some of their own people ultimately. THeir reign was never legitimate and they would lose the power in a fair election EXACTLY like almost all other communistic governments all around the word.
The SU was in fact a military dictatorship, even if some of their number were not wearing uniforms.

Regards Cegorach

[Divinus Arma]

Dictatorships are evil by nature. The country survives only to serve the needs of the leader and the leader only allows those to live that serve his purposes.

[bmolsson]

Hmm, I think not. I know the facts, although I am slightly biased seeing that I was born here, but I still think the US does not brainwash. People are intelligent enough to come to their own conclusions.

It's not about being intelligent or not, neither is it about US being evil or not. The fact is that from birth you are educated to have a certain base as a reference for everything you do. Your conclusions are then based on this. The problem arrives when large parts of society needs to change for the societies own survival. In the history of every country you have dark chapters and most in a time of change.
In the case of US, the racism is a very good example. Our current definition of a racist is a large evil redneck in a white hood. In reality it was hard working people with families just like anyone else. During their childhood and education they where taught that their race was superior with the known results.
The brain washing I am talking about here (maybe a strong word with negative tone) are something absolutely necessary in a functional democractic society. It creates stability and with that prosperity. One of the keys to US success story is actually the brain washing in to the American way.........

[IliaDN]

This is academic. The USSR was illegitimate by definition. It slaughtered tens of millions of its own people and oppressed millions of others. It was a dark force.

Dark force? ... Oh s#@t another damn jedi
I don't understand what is the meaning of the definition " evil empire " - was it evil for itself or for other nations?

[cegorach]

I don't understand what is the meaning of the definition " evil empire " - was it evil for itself or for other nations?[/QUOTE]

When it comes to the SU - BOTH !

Russia for example is in terrible condition now - the Russians are literally dying out and it is because of the SU.

[Radier]

Sorry, but whta´s SU?

[Samurai Waki]

By God man! SU= Soviet Union...

[Radier]

Ah stupid me!

Well I voted yes, they were evil. I hate communists and their thought of forced solidarity

[IliaDN]

I don't understand what is the meaning of the definition " evil empire " - was it evil for itself or for other nations?

When it comes to the SU - BOTH !

Russia for example is in terrible condition now - the Russians are literally dying out and it is because of the SU. [/QUOTE]
Well , russians are NOT dying because of the USSR , there is hard situation ( demography ) for many white people all over the world , problem of russians is the stupid goverment which came after destruction of the USSR ...

[Ice]

Well , russians are NOT dying because of the USSR , there is hard situation ( demography ) for many white people all over the world , problem of russians is the stupid goverment which came after destruction of the USSR ...[/QUOTE]


Oh I know, democracy is a terrible thing!!!!

Would someone PLEASE THINK OF THE WORKERS!!!!!!