'Modern Islamic' Iran

[Byzantine Prince]

Anyone that opposes the right wing of the Republican party is a traitor, even the last handful of remaining moderate Republicans. I know what you're thinking, it's hard for me to believe as well. Apparently, Dubya was annointed by God in the form of Karl Rove...or maybe it came from a flaming Tequila shooter in college, I'm not sure...I'll have to get back to you on that one. It is a righteous presidency, so nothing about it can be opposed without becoming an evil traitor.

It's a sign that Republicans are becoming so far right they are about to reach Nazi status. Anyone who opposes them is a traitor, anyone that says the truth is persecuted for doing so. Look at that CIA agent that got scorned everywhere, and had his wife exposed(who was an undercover CIA agent as well BTW). Yeah it's a stretch to call them full fledged fascists, but the signs are there, if they decide to take it even further it would certainly get there.

You guys are lucky Bush is too dumb to become a dictator, because if he was we would all be in trouble.

[Don Corleone]

King of Atlantis:

Dick Durbin, June 16th, from the floor of the US Senate:

If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.

Is it your argument that Senator Durbin is not a Democrat?

[Steppe Merc]

No, they aren't getting to be Nazis. They are getting to be very scary to me, but not Nazis.

And can we not turn this into a rival political group bashing thread, as fun as it is?

[Proletariat]

Anyone that opposes the right wing of the Republican party is a traitor, even the last handful of remaining moderate Republicans. I know what you're thinking, it's hard for me to believe as well. Apparently, Dubya was annointed by God in the form of Karl Rove...or maybe it came from a flaming Tequila shooter in college, I'm not sure...I'll have to get back to you on that one. It is a righteous presidency, so nothing about it can be opposed without becoming an evil traitor.

What on earth convinced you you're a moderate?

[Don Corleone]

Yeah, no offense Red Harvest, but EVERYONE thinks they're a moderate. I bet Michael Moore describes himself that way. If it makes you feel any better, I think of myself as pretty moderate. Laugh away and chew on that one.

[Red Harvest]

What on earth convinced you you're a moderate?

Probably because I have been simultaneously called a conservative or a liberal. It's more a measure of independence than simply moderate. I have many views that were considered conservative. Pro-defense, pro law and order, pro gun, pro death penalty, anti-communist, belief in personal accountability and responsibility, belief in personal property, fairly anti-union, belief in limitations on govt interference in my life, opposed to much affirmative action. At one time that was fairly conservative. I even have the apparently novel idea that being fiscally conservative means keeping a balanced budget once you get one (silly me.) I also believe in tax policies that enourage savings, true research and development, etc. I'm not much impressed by over leveraged economic growth as being a sustainable concept.

What I don't buy are the current neo-con economic concepts. Nor do I put any stock in the pharisees of the far religious right that have taken over the party. I'm not interested in victorian principles.

My views haven't changed all that much, but while I formerly voted primarily Republican, I've shifted to voting mostly Democrat. The GOP shifted, and gave me a bit of shove.

[Proletariat]

Probably because I have been simultaneously called a conservative or a liberal. It's more a measure of independence than simply moderate. I have many views that were considered conservative. Pro-defense, pro law and order, pro gun, pro death penalty, anti-communist, belief in personal accountability and responsibility, belief in personal property, fairly anti-union, belief in limitations on govt interference in my life, opposed to much affirmative action. At one time that was fairly conservative. I even have the apparently novel idea that being fiscally conservative means keeping a balanced budget once you get one (silly me.) I also believe in tax policies that enourage savings, true research and development, etc.

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My views haven't changed all that much, but while I formerly voted primarily Republican, I've shifted to voting mostly Democrat. The GOP shifted, and gave me a bit of shove.

Did you just give up on the italicized points? Why would you vote democrat if any of them really matter to you?

You've summed up alot of what matters to me, but I won't vote democrat. I'll keep throwing my vote away on the libertarians, thank you.

[Crazed Rabbit]

As Gawain said, the average dem is basically a good guy. It's the high faluatin', arrogant, self centered politicians like Kennedy, Durbin and Pelosi who seem to take perverse pleasure in pointing out and greating exaggerating our failings.

Crazed Rabbit

[Don Corleone]

Probably because I have been simultaneously called a conservative or a liberal. It's more a measure of independence than simply moderate. I have many views that were considered conservative. Pro-defense, pro law and order, pro gun, pro death penalty, anti-communist, belief in personal accountability and responsibility, belief in personal property, fairly anti-union, belief in limitations on govt interference in my life, opposed to much affirmative action. At one time that was fairly conservative. I even have the apparently novel idea that being fiscally conservative means keeping a balanced budget once you get one (silly me.) I also believe in tax policies that enourage savings, true research and development, etc. I'm not much impressed by over leveraged economic growth as being a sustainable concept.

What I don't buy are the current neo-con economic concepts. Nor do I put any stock in the pharisees of the far religious right that have taken over the party. I'm not interested in victorian principles.

My views haven't changed all that much, but while I formerly voted primarily Republican, I've shifted to voting mostly Democrat. The GOP shifted, and gave me a bit of shove.

If you really held to all that, I'd agree 100% that if anything, you're on the conservative side. You described the way I view my own political views to a tee.

But weren't you the one saying Americans just need to quit whining and learn to go along to get along with the Supreme Court agreeing to siezing people's property and that if we shouldn't be so self-interested and maybe emulate Singapore?

How on Earth can you expect anyone to take you seriously as a moderate, or a conservative for that matter, when you're the only one advocating on SCOTUS's behalf. Even Steppe, avowedly the most Leftist American around here, had major issues with that decision.

[Steppe Merc]

Yeah, no offense Red Harvest, but EVERYONE thinks they're a moderate. I bet Michael Moore describes himself that way. If it makes you feel any better, I think of myself as pretty moderate. Laugh away and chew on that one.

Well I describe myself as a liberal, while thinking all democrats are moderates, so where do I fit in?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If you really held to all that, I'd agree 100% that if anything, you're on the conservative side. You described the way I view my own political views to a tee.

Mine also. He has to be a moderate because I agree with half he says But then again I consider myslef a moderate I just lean more to the right and he to the left.

I'll keep throwing my vote away on the libertarians, thank you.

Me too
With all us Libertarians here how is it we never win

[Red Harvest]

Did you just give up on the italicized points? Why would you vote democrat if any of them really matter to you?

You've summed up alot of what matters to me, but I won't vote democrat. I'll keep throwing my vote away on the libertarians, thank you.

Because that is only a portion of my beliefs. I also happen to believe in a living wage. I also believe in the idea of affordable health care. I see a need for social security too. I believe in environmental regs (I've done projects to comply with them...and I also know what we emitted before the initial clean water act regs and found it incredible that it was ever legal.) I believe in investment by the govt in infrastructure and in long term energy programs and the like. I am very concerned about the Republican bent toward giving the business lobby anything they want, most of it is short sighted. I believe in separation of church and state, as well as birth control, and elimination of Blue Laws. I don't think the state has any right to regulate what goes on in the bedroom among consenting adults. I believe in the right to doctor assisted suicide for the terminally ill and I'm very opposed to maintaining people in a persistent vegetative state.

And although I'm anti-drug, I cannot understand why pot is criminalized. (The gateway drug claims won't cut it, alcohol is more of a gateway drug than pot.) I think most of our anti-drug efforts are misguided failures. We would do better to figure out how to deal with the "addictive personality" types in a way that would not cause so much harm to our society--and produce so much violent crime.

And I believe in balancing the budget.

None of these fit too well with the conservative camp.

[Proletariat]

That's a good point. On anecdotal evidence alone, my informal survey shows that half of the Americans on the internet are frigging Libs.

Let's just free New Hampshire and get on with it, already.

[Don Corleone]

Because that is only a portion of my beliefs. I also happen to believe in a living wage. I also believe in the idea of affordable health care. I see a need for social security too. I believe in environmental regs (I've done projects to comply with them...and I also know what we emitted before the initial clean water act regs and found it incredible that it was ever legal.) I believe in investment by the govt in infrastructure and in long term energy programs and the like. I am very concerned about the Republican bent toward giving the business lobby anything they want, most of it is short sighted. I believe in separation of church and state, as well as birth control, and elimination of Blue Laws. I don't think the state has any right to regulate what goes on in the bedroom among consenting adults. I believe in the right to doctor assisted suicide for the terminally ill and I'm very opposed to maintaining people in a persistent vegetative state.

And although I'm anti-drug, I cannot understand why pot is criminalized. (The gateway drug claims won't cut it, alcohol is more of a gateway drug than pot.) I think most of our anti-drug efforts are misguided failures. We would do better to figure out how to deal with the "addictive personality" types in a way that would not cause so much harm to our society--and produce so much violent crime.

And I believe in balancing the budget.

None of these fit too well with the conservative camp.

Well, again, you haven't said anything all that far to the left there chief, and I would agree with you, in theory, on the issues you mention. Aah, but the devil is in the details, no?

What's wrong with a means test for social security, for example?

I may have misjudged you, and if so, I apologize. But honestly man, you gotta quit being SCOTUS's apologist around here.

Seriously, a lot of the issues you mention, in this post and the previous one... it'd be great to get some threads going discussing them. 1) They don't get much play as Iraq, Israel and gay marriage seem to be such burning issues and 2) they tend to play better to our commonalities, instead of our differences. Regardless of what people seem to think, it's pretty damned hard to call somebody a money-grubbing conservative or a liberal feel-gooder over highway construction

[Red Harvest]

But weren't you the one saying Americans just need to quit whining and learn to go along to get along with the Supreme Court agreeing to siezing people's property and that if we shouldn't be so self-interested and maybe emulate Singapore?

Not what I said at all. About the Court ruling I said that it wasn't the end of the world and would be reversed eventually. In the meantime, it looked like an area where people should busy themselves at the state level to make it very difficult for localities to use eminent domain for private-to-private transfers. I also found the ruling an excellent illustration of some of the evils that can come about when localities are not checked by higher authorities (in this case the Supreme Court.) This is the opposite of the view normally espoused by conservatives who favor local rules over national/state.

As for Singapore, rather than passing judgement, I think it makes an interesting model to consider and understand. I don't actually like what I know of its property system, but I can understand why such a tiny country would adopt it. There is good and bad about the place and I could see how it could be very appealing to business conservatives, or even moral conservatives (though it has its seedier side too.) However, it is a multi-religious society with Christians being lower percentage wise than most others. It is very conservative in many ways.

[Don Corleone]

Mine also. He has to be a moderate because I agree with half he says But then again I consider myslef a moderate I just lean more to the right and he to the left.

Now if me calling myself a moderate had people chuckling, you're actually going to get people to hurt themselves with fits of uncontrollable laughter. Didn't you win that little "who's the most conservative" beauty pagent we had last summer?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Didn't you win that little "who's the most conservative" beauty pagent we had last summer?

No I didnt come close. In fact a few said I was a moderate as far as conservatives go

[Red Harvest]

What's wrong with a means test for social security, for example?

Wouldn't bother me. Can't say that I've looked into it closely (those darned details.) Where you run into trouble is from the conservatives who will say, "hey, I put in my money, I don't care if I'm getting 20K a month from my regular pension/investments/etc., I want my social security because I paid into it for 40 years." Of course, I've also heard some very wealthy individuals say the opposite of that.

A problem I've had is that we have been using social security as a regressive tax. I hits the poor harder than the wealthy. We've been paying for budget deficits out of SS surpluses for decades. I'm not too keen on that... This was an issue I had back in Reagan/Bush times. Dubya's budgets have only made the discrepancy worse, by reducing the top brackets.

[Don Corleone]

Actually, conservatives FAVOR a means test for social security. It's the Left that doesn't like it, because they don't want it called an entitlement program. Personally, I expect to pay into Social Security until the day I retire, and I'd be cash (and I'm betting my retirement plans) on never seeing one red cent of it. If I'm wrong, I've just got more frosting on my cake.

Oh, and btw, social security taxes aren't regressive. The poor doesn't get hit harder. You're buying the hype. They're just not progressive, which usually gets translated into "it favors the wealthy and punishes the poor", even though the rich actually ARE paying more. This is much like Idaho's favorite boogeyman "If you're not paying enough taxes, you're getting subsidies". If only Orwell could hear that kind of thought-speak, it'd bring a tear to his eye.

[Ice]

How the hell did the Iranian President discussion get turned into this bs?

Guys, please, create a seperate thread for this. And Back to Iran...

[bmolsson]

Right. We will give you a choice, Stalin or Hitler for your leader. Have a nice day.

Well, it's more or less like Bush and Kerry then.....

[Proletariat]

Well, it's more or less like Bush and Kerry then.....

I'm not positive I've read a more idiotic comment than this one in quite sometime.

[bmolsson]

I'm not positive I've read a more idiotic comment than this one in quite sometime.

If you read the statement it responded to and believe that is smarter, your comment have no relevance what so ever.

[Auctoritas]

Any chance of this discussion going back to the original thread?
It was actually kind of interesting.....

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If you read the statement it responded to and believe that is smarter, your comment have no relevance what so ever

Is that so? So the Iranians are as free to choose their leaders as we are in the US? Im getting really tired of people comparing the US to Nazis and Communists butchers. Join the Dick Durbin fan club.

[Navaros]

the Mullah's have fixed the whole thing in order to take Iran back to the dark ages.

What a f*cking joke.

on the contrary! these guys have fixed it so that Iran does not become an evil, hypocritical, faux-Islam like much of the Muslim world is now doing in order to put self-gratification and evil above their own faith

i applaud Iran for preventing itself from joining this new Dark Age and continuing to support righteousness and not evil

[Auctoritas]

on the contrary! these guys have fixed it so that Iran does not become an evil, hypocritical, faux-Islam like much of the Muslim world is now doing in order to put self-gratification and evil above their own faith

i applaud Iran for preventing itself from joining this new Dark Age and continuing to support righteousness and not evil

I don't understand how the suppression of free speech, the closing of newspapers that don't agree with the official position of the government, or autocratic disqualification of candidates that the government doesn't approve of supports righteousness in any possible way.

[Navaros]

I don't understand how the suppression of free speech, the closing of newspapers that don't agree with the official position of the government, or autocratic disqualification of candidates that the government doesn't approve of supports righteousness in any possible way.

controls must be put in place so that Islamic society does not fall into the same trap as North America and Europe and hence become filthy cesspools of sheer evil. by giving evildoers an inch, they take well over 10 million miles. better to nip that in the bud and suppress evildoers from committing atrocities before they have the opportunity to do so

[Papewaio]

So voting for a female candidate is an evil thing?

If God gave us free will who is the church to limit us from making those choices?

How is stoning women to death a step up for good? WWJD?

[Byzantine Prince]

WWJD?

A better question would be WWBPD?

I could tell you what, BAN RELIGION FOREVER.