Use of Cataphracts

**jerby** · 07-22-2005, 22:16

i think he ment historicaly, not in-game. afaik catapracts had more charging-power against infantry lingnes, but were less effective in cav-cav battles. my guess is Seleucids used them for swiftness, not for power; wich is teh opposite of usefull...

again, as always: correct me if i'm wrong

**SpawnOfEbil** · 07-22-2005, 22:28

How did the Parthians use Cats then? They didn't have the anvil to hold an enemy in place.

I read somewhere (think Wikipedia) that they were used to charge into troops pursuing HAs. Is this true?

**Steppe Merc** · 07-22-2005, 22:37

Well I don't think there was any set tactic. Rember, cataphracts were all equipped diffrently. But once an army tried to chase the horse archers, they would end up being exausted. Then the horsearchers could wheel around as the cataphracts charged.
In addition, the amount of cataphracts varied battle to battle.
Also, most infantry lines (especially the non Greek ones) would end up breaking before the charge of the cataphract, out of fear. Or they would end up getting close together to try and withstand it, which would allow the horse archers excellent targets while the cataphracts wouldn't actually charge.
They would also likely be able to win in a fight if they charged other cavalry, but if they had to chase them, then they would fail. That's what the horse archers and the other light cavalry was for.

Likely the Selecuids failure came from their lack of light cavalry. Without horse archers to soften up infantry or chase off other light cavalry, cataphracts would be vuneralbe, and while they wouldn't suck, they would likely end up dying. It's just a guess, however.

**pezhetairoi** · 07-25-2005, 03:03

In the Parthian sense the Cats were used as line-breakers but only after the HA had done their work. They were also used more as scare objects than anything else. At Carrhae Surena sent the cats careening at the Roman lines only to break away before contact when it became evident the Romans were holding firm. Then he moved in his HA to soften the enemy, and then charged again to annoy but not to combat. The cats were used as a lure for Crassus' Gallic cavalry, who sallied out of the legionary square to get trashed by the cats, then finally, Publius Crassus' breakout column was also engaged by cats and massacred. The cats were not used to engage formed, massed formations at Carrhae, but to strike down the enemy when he detached forces to force local engagements. The cats were only used against a broken or scattered army. So Parthian cat usage was very different from the Greek usage of it.

**Steppe Merc** · 07-25-2005, 18:13

That was only one battle, against an enemy that used heavy infantry. Rember, they also had to fight against nomads who used primarily horse archers but also had heavier horse. So while Carhae is helpful, it isn't the deffinetive definition of cataphracts, IMO.

**jerby** · 07-25-2005, 20:01

i think EB should make its own: art of war book/manual/script. it'll really help/be interesting

**Angadil** · 07-25-2005, 22:13

IMO, Carrhae shows skillful use of catphracts by the Parthians, or, more generally, skilled generalship on Surena's part. It was not always so, though.

In 39 BCE; the Parthians invaded Roman territory, and at the Cilician Gates their cataphracts charged uphill against a Roman camp with predictably disastrous results. One wonders if the Parthians had grown contemptuous of the Romans ater Carrhae. A year later at Gindarus the Parthians charged again straight against another Roman camp. This time, however, an astute Roman general might have fooled them into thinking the camp was undefended. It turned out it wasn't and the Parthian defeat was total, including the killing of a Royal Prince.

Those frontal charges are not that different from what Seleucid cataphracts did at Magnesia. If anything, the Seleucids were somewhat more successful. Antiochos III led 3000 cataphracts and the cavalry Agema (1000) on his right wing in a charge that managed to break one of the four legions opposing him. In Livy's account of the battle it was actually the Latin Ala (not really a Roman legion) in the extreme left of the Roman battle line that Antiochos cavalry outflanked and routed. That would have required the Seleucid cavalry moving diagonally across the whole frontage of both the Roman legion and the Latin Ala (they were not posted in the extreme right as was typical) However, the battle's account in Justin says explicitly that it was the Roman legion right in front the Seleucid cavalry that was routed and that the event was considered a great disgrace, even if the Romans were the eventual victors of the battle. A third account by Appian speaks of the Seleucid king "breaking through the Roman phalanx" which is not very detailed, but seems to agree better with Justin than with Livy. And we know that Livy was not above masking anything that migh reflect poorly on anything Roman....

If we accept Justin's version (which, IMO, given the disposition of the troops and Appian's wording, does not seem unlikely) the Seleucid cataphracts could boast of being one of the very few bodies of ancient cavalry (if not the only) that managed to break a Roman legion by a frontal charge. However, and just to add some more perspective, at the other end of the battlefield another 3000 Seleucid cataphracts were thrown into disorder by fleeing scythed chariots and then Pergamene and Roman cavalry made short work of them.