Templar Thread

[Brutus]

Templar fleet - Many Templars survived prosecution by going underground. Part of the fleet sailed to Portugal where the Templars simply took another name. The rest of the fleet set sail for Scotland where the Scottish independence movement provided an excellent cover. The Templars would repay their Scottish guardians by helping them defeating the English at Bannockburn a few short years later.

I've heard so, yes. However, I've also heard some of these ships actually reached the America's. Most importantly, however, it seems this ship contained the order's treasure (see "National treasure"? ). I personally find it hard to believe this were to be the Holy Grail itself. (also, that leaves the question: what ís the Holy Grail, or, better still, is it a person instead of an object?)

Where the accusations (sodomy, heresy, etc.) against them real or just retoric to prove them 'evil'? - They were false. It was made up so that their land and money would be siezed.

I'd say so too. It would certainly explain why indeed the Portuguese and Scottish kings didn't believe these accusations, and Philip was notoriously power-hungry (ask any Fleming on the .org). However, there are some disturbing sherds of evidence that there were some strange things going on within the order. For example, one of the order's memebers confessed new members were made to defile the bible and spit on the cross during their inauguration. This was supposed to prepare them against Muslim torture, he said. This explanation sounds highly dubious to me.

Did they find something below the Temple ruins in Jerusalem, and, if so, what? - Belived to be the holy grail which they took back to Scotland and placed under Roslyn Chapel outside Edinburgh - there are other places in the British Isles that it may have been taken to.

There also seems to be the theory they also found the stone tablets containing the Ten Commandments, I believe.

Do they still exist? - Yes

Could you clarify this? I'm most interested.

Was it a coincedence that both king Philip IV the Fair of France and pope Clement V died within a year after they brought Grand Master Jacques de Molay to burn at the stake? - Grand Master Jacques de Molay said that they would join him in death within a year - which came true

Indeed. Bad luck for them?

[Templar Knight]

Could you clarify this? I'm most interested.

The order went 'extinct' in the aftermath of 1307 after they were made illegal. Many Knights Templar went underground more as a secret society rather than the great military order that they once had been. It is commonly believed that freemasonry is descended from the Knights Templar.

The Knights Templar and Knights Templar of Aberdeen are a higher part of freemasonry. (In Scotland - it might be different elsewhere)

check out: http://www.templarhistory.com

[King Henry V]

Some also fled to England, where Edward II attempted to hold off the Inquisition . For a certain time he succeeded, but in the end the pressure of the French king and the Pope meant that he had to allow the trial of Templars.
I prefer to think that the Holy Grail was the chalice from which Christ drank at the Last Supper, not the theory that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had a child with her, which seems to be the rage nowadays.

[Meneldil]

Do they still exist? - Yes

Errrr...is your claim based on any real fact ?

A lot of people claim to be templars' spiritual heirs, but all of them are just trying to get some attention from the medias.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I think some people here need to start looking at real historical evidence rather than trashy mysteries or origin myths of early modern secret societies(whom I have a great deal more respect for than the authors of the aforementioned mystery books).

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I prefer to think that the Holy Grail was the chalice from which Christ drank at the Last Supper, not the theory that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had a child with her, which seems to be the rage nowadays.

Good for you! Those evil heretics who made that up.........

[edyzmedieval]

I agree completely with King Henry V....

Stupid cathars and heretics....

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

That "rage" you are refering to KH has been going on alot longer than Dan Browns Da Vinci Code and other stuff diving on the bandwagon. I have studied much on this area and there is alot of evidence for it, much more than most of the stories from the Bible and some of the theories of the Church.

[edyzmedieval]

How many piety points do you have BKB???!!!

Just joking... It's everyone's choice to accept a different theory....

BTW, where can I find about Grand Master Jacques de Molay?

[Brutus]

I guess the problem here is that the "Holy Grail" in conventional literature laways is seen as an object, most popularly as the cup which contained the wine at the Last Supper and in which the blood of Christ was caught by St. Joseph of Arimethea. However, it never was entirely clear if the Grail indeed was this Cup (notwithstanding more popular connotations like Indiana Jones), but it could, for example, also be the lance which pierced Christs side on the Cross. (This spear, by the way, is said to be the one nowadays lying in a Vienna museum), or actually any kind of object with apparently very strange powers (I also recall a theory making it apiece of meteor).

However, the theory of the Grail being a person could indeed be just as old and just as valid. The most striking "evidence" seems to be linguistic: San Greal (Holy Grail) or Sang Real (Royal Blood)? Some apocriphic texts indeed state that Mary Magdalen was Jezus' wife, so if that were true he would most likely had children. However, to believe the Grail is a person first means believing this other evidence, which in itself is hard enough, especially as it is contrary to Christian official opinion.

By the way, Edyzmedieval, I don't think any Kathar would have believed this theory anyway...

[edyzmedieval]

I don't wanna have a fight on religious matters...

Shall we resume the topic?! Info on Grand Master Jacques de Molay please...

[Afonso I of Portugal]

I've heard so, yes. However, I've also heard some of these ships actually reached the America's. Most importantly, however, it seems this ship contained the order's treasure (see "National treasure"? ). I personally find it hard to believe this were to be the Holy Grail itself. (also, that leaves the question: what ís the Holy Grail, or, better still, is it a person instead of an object?)

I'd say so too. It would certainly explain why indeed the Portuguese and Scottish kings didn't believe these accusations

Concerning to the Portuguese, it's true that King Dinis didn't believe those accusations of heresy, and he simply founded the Order Of Christ to replace the portuguese templars and many others knights who fled to Tomar. However, the Kings of Portugal have many reasons to support the Templars, because:
- Their presence dates back to 1128, when Portugal was just a county of Leon-Castile.
- The Templars support Portugal's independence in 1143.
- They were given extensive possessions and castles in frontier land, during the "reconquista".
- They built the Tomar Castle, one of their major strongholds in Europe.
(see "Order of Christ" in wikipedia)

Part of Templar fleet did reached portuguese ports, however the order's treasure seems to have disapeared...or not?
In fact, the first ages of the Order Of Christ were indeed prosperous and they launched the first great wave of expeditions of the period of discoveries; with templar ships and money? well, there are no conclusive evidences and we just may guess...

[Watchman]

Not with the ships, that's for sure. The Templars got wiped in very early 1300s; the Discoveries started in mid-late 1400s and really only got underway a while late.

During the time inbetween there were some pretty major advances in European shipbuilding.

[Templar Knight]

Templars discover America?

http://www.templarhistory.com/1578633176.html

After the Pope officially disbanded the Knight Templar organisation, those remaining fled principally to Scotland and Portugal, two nations who refused to accept the Pope's authority. Most of their confiscated wealth was redistributed to another religious order, the Hospitalliers of St John, thought to be linked with the Vatican.

The secrecy of the order has intrigued many, as inconclusive evidence points to holy artifacts such as the Holy Grail, and the Ark of the Covenant and whatever else they may have found under the Temple of Solomon. Treasure hunters have tunneled 200 feet deep into the recesses of Oak Island in search of what may be the final resting place of the Templar legacy. Did they discover America before Columbus (who flew the Templars red cross on his sails) and take an instrumental part in the American independence? (Most of the American leaders of the time were Masons) Did the Templars hold an ancient knowledge, and did they find powerful sacred artifacts that caused their swift rise?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A203554

[Afonso I of Portugal]

Not with the ships, that's for sure. The Templars got wiped in very early 1300s; the Discoveries started in mid-late 1400s and really only got underway a while late.

During the time inbetween there were some pretty major advances in European shipbuilding.

Yes that's true, but i didn't say that the templar ships used in 1312 were the same used one century after! their tecnology could be used and improved.

In Portugal and Spain, the religious-military orders were major sponsors of the first expeditions to overseas, improving shipbuilding. For example, the caravel, was a mercant ship used mainly in the mediterranean, but was readapt with new sails and equipment to navigate in the atlantic.

I think the huge crosses in sails used by Portuguese (cross of Christ) and Spanish (Cross of Santiago) ships in the beginning of the discoveries could be a sign of their sponsor or a sign to be recognized by fellow christians in distant lands.

[Ironside]

For example, one of the order's memebers confessed new members were made to defile the bible and spit on the cross during their inauguration. This was supposed to prepare them against Muslim torture, he said. This explanation sounds highly dubious to me.

As all confessions came out of torture and was then later denied, those confessions are of questionalbe quality.

About them who fled to Scotland, they merged with the Hospitaliers there, the Hospitaliers got even a name change to the Templars of St John or something like that.

I think the huge crosses in sails used by Portuguese (cross of Christ) and Spanish (Cross of Santiago) ships in the beginning of the discoveries could be a sign of their sponsor or a sign to be recognized by fellow christians in distant lands.

It worth noticing that the reconquista was still more of less active at the time. Grenada fell 1492.