Anti-Semitism in Canada

[Watchman]

Actual anti-Semitism has for fairly obvious reasons been really unpopular in Europe for the past fifty-odd years. Particularly in Germany. Thus far every single German I've ever seen confronted with the issue has adopted such a meek, apologizing tone about the whole thing that I've almost felt like shaking them and yelling "ferchrissakes it was your bloody *grandparents* - *you* don't need to flagellate over it!"

These days Jews are pretty much OK in most circles. If nothing else there's the more recent immigrants, refugees et all to distrust - and they're generally a lot easier to pick out too.

Zionists, however, aren't. And down in the Middle East there's an entire state built on that ideology. Europeans, who spent a century introducing each other to the niceties of national exclusivism, may perhaps be excuse dif they're not terribly keen on a political entity which pretty much declares its adherence to that principle in its constitution. (That, by all accounts, our news reporting on the Israel-Palestine issue is pretty unbiased by world standards - as US news are distinctly pro and Muslim news anti Israel - may also have a bit to do with it.)

That Israel sits down there is a fact, and one that isn't going to go away. I don't think it is particularly liked around here, but then again neither does about anyone who thinks things through call for its abolition either. Now Jews are one thing; the state of Israel is another; and Zionists a third. The first most people are okay with; the second most quietly accept as a fait accompli, albeit reluctantly; but the third nobody has any duty to like.

Zionism is an ideology, neither equal with nor confined to either Jews or Israel. And ideologies are fair game.

Now, for the past five or so years - basically since the last genuinely promising round of peace talks down there fell through - people here have been watching depressingly similar news coming out of there. And, as rank apologism hasn't been in the agenda (and back in 2000 an American Jew who'd recently been down there or so told me it very much is in US news), they've by and large added up the casualty figures, resources and actions of both sides, and the majority of those who now bother caring about the issue seem to have arrived at the conclusion they like the Israeli side rather less.

And through the unfortunate way human mind tends to make associations, that has eroded the standing of Jews in the eyes of the general public. It's not antisemitism, really; just a sort of ...disinterest. Back when the antisemitic outbursts happened in France it wasn't like people cheered them or anything (although I have no difficulties imagining many Muslims in the run-down ghettoes actually did)- it's just that neither did they react with the sort of outrage such incidents caused only a few years earlier.

Of course, the habit Israeli politicos and Zionist apologists have of crying loud "ANTI-SEMITE!!!!" about every time someone openly criticizes Israeli policies doesn't help any. Know the story about the boy who yelled wolf...?

As a side note, that's also what mr. Putschi does if a quick skimming is anything to judge by. He doesn't say it straight, of course, he's obviously not that stupid; but it is very clearly implied from almost the very beginning that "anti-Zionist" = "anti-Semite".

Plus he's playing the martyr card, by what I can see. I'm normally fairly tolerant of it when ethnic minorities do that, but given that the things are a fair bit different out where the root of the problem lies (Israel is pretty much a regional military and economic powerhouse and top dog; the Palestinians have squat) I'm a bit leery of it in this case.

Although I will give you that it is rather decidedly unfair if Jews abroad, who quite often haven't anything to do with the whole issue and would like to see it either satisficatorily resolved or disappear as much as the next guy over, get into trouble thanks to what the zealots in Israel do.

[PanzerJaeger]

Now, for the past five or so years - basically since the last genuinely promising round of peace talks down there fell through - people here have been watching depressingly similar news coming out of there. And, as rank apologism hasn't been in the agenda (and back in 2000 an American Jew who'd recently been down there or so told me it very much is in US news), they've by and large added up the casualty figures, resources and actions of both sides, and the majority of those who now bother caring about the issue seem to have arrived at the conclusion they like the Israeli side rather less.

Where do you live, because that is most definately not the case in many parts of the world.

[Watchman]

Where do you live, because that is most definately not the case in many parts of the world.

Helsinki, Finland. I added it to my info just to avoid having to explain it in the future.

Now, I've not the slightest doubt that what I said may well not be the case universally; but then again I was only talking about Europe and that in rather general, "this is my impression" sort of terms, something I did try to communicate in the general tone of the post.

However, would you like to name a few of those "many parts" past the US which I've already addressed ?

[PanzerJaeger]

Helsinki, Finland. I added it to my info just to avoid having to explain it in the future.

Oh, well your comments about the US media being pro-israeli make more sense now. May i suggest that you take a look at your own media before making such assumptions.

In any event, there are non-zionists who support Israel in Canada, Japan, and Australia. Im sure there are more, but I really cant speak for the general opinion of people in Cambodia.

[Watchman]

I've taken a look at my media. And kept looking, from about since I could read. I've also taken some looks at American media, caught a few odd bits of some Arab news, and deduced the rest.

The conclusions stand. And pray tell what do *you* know about *our* media ? I do dare claim I'm rather better at reading news in English than you're in Finnish or Swedish, though feel free to prove me wrong...

That aside, individual statistical errors aren't worth a jack. We've pro-Israeli religious sects here in Finland, and I know for a fact there's a fair few activist groups in Israel opposed to the nation's policies. Heck, there's a small movement in the IDF where the soldiers refuse to enter the Occupied Territories on the grounds that there they're likely to receive orders that conflict with the Geneva Conventions and similar accords (which famously don't accept "just following orders" as a valid defense). No doubt you can also find pro-Israeli Arab Muslims and Jewish antisemites.

Doesn't mean much, though. I once had a right-winger American tell me on another forum he knew a couple of Swedes who didn't like the social-democrat policies the state almost typifies. I was all "yeah, and ?" I know people who don't like Finnish domestic politics one way or the other.

The opinions of scattered individuals don't really matter here, you see. What's relevant are the general opinions of sufficient masses of people to affect the whole tone and overall mentality of their reference level.

[PanzerJaeger]

The opinions of scattered individuals don't really matter here, you see. What's relevant are the general opinions of sufficient masses of people to affect the whole tone and overall mentality of their reference level.

You stated that the general opinion in your area was anti-israel, and justified that by making the claim that people in your area have analyzed the facts of the situation and come to that conclusion.

Im just informing you that there are large groups of people who have also analyzed the facts and come to a different conclusion.

Also, I know European news is no less biased than American news - so making such statements about US media without substantiation shows a bit of bias on your part.. in my opinion of course.

[Watchman]

You stated that the general opinion in your area was anti-israel, and justified that by making the claim that people in your area have analyzed the facts of the situation and come to that conclusion.

Im just informing you that there are large groups of people who have also analyzed the facts and come to a different conclusion.

Also, I know European news is no less biased than American news - so making such statements about US media without substantiation shows a bit of bias on your part.. in my opinion of course.

Yadda yadda. I notice you failed to provide any concrete examples of where exactly these substantial groups of people who've arrived at this different conclusion reside.

As for the differences between the US and Euro medias in this context, there's the little fact that to someone of your political orientation and used to the sort of newsfeed most American media outlets give of Israel, the markedly more even Euro news no doubt appear as blatantly pro-Palestine.

Which they're not. I've seen the pro-Palestine anti-Israel versions too, you see; those largely come from assorted NGO activist groups who are often thankfully willing to distribute them for free. And the mainstream media is a whole different piece of work in comparision.

While I'm generally wary of using the term in the context of media and news, in this case I would actually dare claim that on the whole European news give a picture of things down there that is markedly closer to that ever-nebulous "truth" than their American colleagues.
Which I daresay has more than little to do with the way the US keeps pumping ridiculous amounts of monetary, military and political aid to Israel and duly has a certain interest in, shall we say, explaining certain things for the best and suffering from a certain kind of selective blindness in the interests of self-perception...

[Beirut]

Watchman,

Ah yes, Mr. Prutschi. He was in Montreal last winter giving a talk and he made it very, very clear that not only is anti-Zionism the same an anti-Semitism, but any and all criticisms of Israeli policy is nothing but a convenient smokescreen to hide the speakers anti-Semitism.

This guy is a real SOB. He is the Joseph McCarthy of the Israeli lobby. If you speak, he will accuse. And he's very good at it. He is a blackmailing, blacklisting, SOB and should be countered at every step. The Montreal Gazette, our major newspaper, printed a letter I wrote after this bonehead came to town. I was happy to take a piece out of him. The basic idea was that we are not sheep to be herded by his threats. And that's all Mr. Prutschi has - threats.

"If you speak I will accuse."

My dearest Mr. Putschi: shove it!

[caesar44]

Watchman,

Ah yes, Mr. Prutschi. He was in Montreal last winter giving a talk and he made it very, very clear that not only is anti-Zionism the same an anti-Semitism, but any and all criticisms of Israeli policy is nothing but a convenient smokescreen to hide the speakers anti-Semitism.

This guy is a real SOB. He is the Joseph McCarthy of the Israeli lobby. If you speak, he will accuse. And he's very good at it. He is a blackmailing, blacklisting, SOB and should be countered at every step. The Montreal Gazette, our major newspaper, printed a letter I wrote after this bonehead came to town. I was happy to take a piece out of him. The basic idea was that we are not sheep to be herded by his threats. And that's all Mr. Prutschi has - threats.

"If you speak I will accuse."

My dearest Mr. Putschi: shove it!

1. "This guy is a real SOB"
2. He is ... SOB"
3. "shove it!"

Aha , forum rules ? nehhh
Please continue

[Beirut]

1. "This guy is a real SOB"
2. He is ... SOB"
3. "shove it!"

Aha , forum rules ? nehhh
Please continue

As Mr. Prutschi is one of us, and holds a very important position in a Canadian public organization, the way I see it I'm allowed to stick it to him.

Likewise, as Ariel Sharon is one of your guys, and a public figure, you also have the right to call him an SOB and tell him to shove it.

Although my language could use a tad more eloquence I'm sure, why do you object about what I say concerning Mr. Prutschi? I was postively friendly compared to what... others (cough), have written in these threads in the last day or two. There was some mighty nasty name calling by... others (cough), and I think I have done well not to sink to... their, (cough-hack-wheeze) level.

[caesar44]

As Mr. Prutschi is one of us, and holds a very important position in a Canadian public organization, the way I see it I'm allowed to stick it to him.

Likewise, as Ariel Sharon is one of your guys, and a public figure, you also have the right to call him an SOB and tell him to shove it.

Although my language could use a tad more eloquence I'm sure, why do you object about what I say concerning Mr. Prutschi? I was postively friendly compared to what... others (cough), have written in these threads in the last day or two. There was some mighty nasty name calling by... others (cough), and I think I have done well not to sink to... their, (cough-hack-wheeze) level.

So , if someone makes an argument that you don't like to hear , he is an SOB ? there is a big difference between arguments and wicked accusations .
If someone is referring to all Canadians as murders , then he is a SOB , but if someone is just talking about some bad Canadians who attacked some Jews , then relate to what he says - we are not kids here , ah ?

[Beirut]

So , if someone makes an argument that you don't like to hear , he is an SOB ? there is a big difference between arguments and wicked accusations .
If someone is referring to all Canadians as murders , then he is a SOB , but if someone is just talking about some bad Canadians who attacked some Jews , then relate to what he says - we are not kids here , ah ?

I am the most vocal proponent of freedom of speech you will ever meet. I would never deny anyone the right to speak their mind. I would never deny Mr. Prutschi the right to say what he has to say.

But this freedom of expression extends to myself as well. And while Mr. Prutschi has every right to state his views, I have every right to tell him how wrong he is and what an SOB he is. The reason I call him an SOB is because he is trying to stop others from speaking. He does not allow debate or dissent. If someone disagrees with him, he cries out with accusations of racism and tries to frighten them into silence. That cannot be allowed.

If someone wants Mr. Prutschi to give a talk, or Ariel Sharon, or the leaders of the settlers, or anyone, I don't have any problem with it at all. But that means the other side has to shut up if we call on people who have different views to speak their minds. Freedom of expression is for everyone, especially your worst enemy, otherwise it is worth nothing at all.

[PanzerJaeger]

Yadda yadda. I notice you failed to provide any concrete examples of where exactly these substantial groups of people who've arrived at this different conclusion reside.

I listed four countries where a significant part of the population fall on the Israeli side of things.

As for the differences between the US and Euro medias in this context, there's the little fact that to someone of your political orientation and used to the sort of newsfeed most American media outlets give of Israel, the markedly more even Euro news no doubt appear as blatantly pro-Palestine.

Thats such a weak statement. I could just as easily say that because of your political orientation and the fact that you are used to European media, American news seems blatantly pro-Israel. The fact is that Ive been exposed to both media, and European news is no less biased than American.

While I'm generally wary of using the term in the context of media and news, in this case I would actually dare claim that on the whole European news give a picture of things down there that is markedly closer to that ever-nebulous "truth" than their American colleagues.

Opinion really doesnt mean anything here... so Ill take a card from your deck. Yadda, yadda.

Which I daresay has more than little to do with the way the US keeps pumping ridiculous amounts of monetary, military and political aid to Israel and duly has a certain interest in, shall we say, explaining certain things for the best and suffering from a certain kind of selective blindness in the interests of self-perception...

Hey! Your bias is hanging out for everyone to see! Put that thing away..

[caesar44]

I am the most vocal proponent of freedom of speech you will ever meet. I would never deny anyone the right to speak their mind. I would never deny Mr. Prutschi the right to say what he has to say.

But this freedom of expression extends to myself as well. And while Mr. Prutschi has every right to state his views, I have every right to tell him how wrong he is and what an SOB he is. The reason I call him an SOB is because he is trying to stop others from speaking. He does not allow debate or dissent. If someone disagrees with him, he cries out with accusations of racism and tries to frighten them into silence. That cannot be allowed.

If someone wants Mr. Prutschi to give a talk, or Ariel Sharon, or the leaders of the settlers, or anyone, I don't have any problem with it at all. But that means the other side has to shut up if we call on people who have different views to speak their minds. Freedom of expression is for everyone, especially your worst enemy, otherwise it is worth nothing at all.

So , we have the same ideas about what is a democracy , well , it is something...


"Democracy means , to control through debates , but , it is useful only if you can make people to stop talking..." (Clement Richrad Attlee 1st earl attlee , British prime minister 1945 - 1951)