Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 84

Thread: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

  1. #1
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI
    Dennis Prager (archive)

    June 21, 2005 | printer friendly version Print | email to a friend Send

    It is almost impossible to overstate how radically different Old Testament thought was from the thought of the rest of its contemporary world. And it continues to be, given how few societies affirm Judeo-Christian values and how much opposition to them exists in American society, the society that has most incorporated these values.

    Among the most radical of these differences was the incredible declaration that God is outside of nature and is its creator.

    In every society on earth, people venerated nature and worshipped nature gods. There were gods of thunder and gods of rain. Mountains were worshipped, as were rivers, animals and every natural force known to man. In ancient Egypt, for example, gods included the Nile River, the frog, sun, wind, gazelle, bull, cow, serpent, moon and crocodile.

    Then came Genesis, which announced that a supernatural God, i.e., a god who existed outside of nature, created nature. Nothing about nature was divine.

    Professor Nahum Sarna, the author of what I consider one of the two most important commentaries on Genesis and Exodus, puts it this way: "The revolutionary Israelite concept of God entails His being wholly separate from the world of His creation and wholly other than what the human mind can conceive or the human imagination depict."

    The other magisterial commentary on Genesis was written by the late Italian Jewish scholar Umberto Cassuto, professor of Bible at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem: "Relative to the ideas prevailing among the peoples of the ancient East, we are confronted here with a basically new conception and a spiritual revolution . . . The basically new conception consists in the completely transcendental view of the Godhead . . . the God of Israel is outside and above nature, and the whole of nature, the sun, and the moon, and all the hosts of heaven, and the earth beneath, and the sea that is under the earth, and all that is in them -- they are all His creatures which He created according to His will."

    This was extremely difficult for men to assimilate then. And as society drifts from Judeo-Christian values, it is becoming difficult to assimilate again today. Major elements in secular Western society are returning to a form of nature worship. Animals are elevated to equality with people, and the natural environment is increasingly regarded as sacred. The most extreme expressions of nature worship actually view human beings as essentially blights on nature.

    Even among some who consider themselves religious, and especially among those who consider themselves "spiritual" rather than religious, nature is regarded as divine, and God is deemed as dwelling within it.

    It is quite understandable that people who rely on feelings more than reason to form their spiritual beliefs would deify nature. It is easier -- indeed more natural -- to worship natural beauty than an invisible and morally demanding God.

    What is puzzling is that many people who claim to rely more on reason would do so. Nature is unworthy of worship. Nature, after all, is always amoral and usually cruel. Nature has no moral laws, only the amoral law of survival of the fittest.

    Why would people who value compassion, kindness or justice venerate nature? The notions of justice and caring for the weak are unique to humanity. In the rest of nature, the weak are to be killed. The individual means nothing in nature; the individual is everything to humans. A hospital, for example, is a profoundly unnatural, indeed antinatural, creation; to expend precious resources on keeping the most frail alive is simply against nature.

    The romanticizing of nature, let alone the ascribing of divinity to it, involves ignoring what really happens in nature. I doubt that those American schoolchildren who conducted a campaign on behalf of freeing a killer whale (the whale in the film "Free Willy") ever saw films of actual killer whale behavior. There are National Geographic videos that show, among other things, killer whales tossing a terrified baby seal back and forth before finally killing it. Perhaps American schoolchildren should see those films and then petition killer whales not to treat baby seals sadistically.

    If you care about good and evil, you cannot worship nature. And since that is what God most cares about, nature worship is antithetical to Judeo-Christian values.

    Nature surely reflects the divine. It is in no way divine. Only nature's Creator is.
    Amen
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  2. #2
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,334

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    I think Satanists worship nature. I can't think of any other modern religion that does that.

  3. #3
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    I can't think of any other modern religion that does that.
    Their called enviormentalist wackos over here.

    Mostly liberals.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  4. #4
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Denver working on the Railroad
    Posts
    10,660

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    I think Satanists worship nature. I can't think of any other modern religion that does that.
    Satanists by defination do not worship nature - they worship Satan.

    The Wiccen (SP) worship aspects of nature. But like the author of the article stated

    Nature, after all, is always amoral and usually cruel. Nature has no moral laws, only the amoral law of survival of the fittest.

    Which is very true.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  5. #5
    The Blade Member JimBob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Chi Town
    Posts
    588

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    I think Satanists worship nature. I can't think of any other modern religion that does that.
    neo-pagan, you can argue hindu, a large number of eastern religions (you can argue taoism, jainism, shintoism), native american.

    Also Judaism was not the first to claim a supernatural God. Before them were the Zoroastrians who believed in a single God
    'Ahura Mazda is the beginning and the end, the creator of everything which can and cannot be seen, the Eternal, the Pure and the only Truth.'
    -Wiki
    Sometimes I slumber on a bed of roses
    Sometimes I crash in the weeds
    One day a bowl full of cherries
    One night I'm suckin' on lemons and spittin' out the seeds
    -Roger Clyne and the Peacemakers, Lemons

  6. #6
    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Thule
    Posts
    1,323

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    First of all, jews/christians were not first to pray to One god, the Egyptians were. IMO the jews in Egypt probably stole the idea of one god from the Egyptians. But we can never know that.

    Personally, I despise the beliefe of one supernatural god that sets moral rules and inspired people write such absurd things as the Bible or Koran.

    If I was to pray to anything, I would pray to life and nature. But not in the stupid way wich the author talks about, as he states that those whom worship nature kill the weak. Not true in my case.
    Its true that we humans differ from the other animals, but the reason as to why we take care of our wounded and weak is not becouse some old man with white beard on a cloud told us so, but becouse we CAN. Animals in the nature cant afford to stick around and take care of weak and wounded all the time, that would lead to their own death.
    Much of the time animals have to hunt for food. We humans have allready secured a way to produce food easy for ourselfs and so on. Its called civilization. Might add that our civilization is flawd since a majority of our spiece isnt priviligied to get the food.
    The Native indians in your country worshiped nature, took care of their wounded and had a rather good system betwen men and women. Couse, their culture didnt stand a chance against savage, murderous christians expanding an empire.

    So just becouse I "pray" or respect nature more then some "dude up there" wich sets weird rules doesnt mean I hate the weak and wish them dead.


    www.overspun.com

    "Freedom without opportunity is a devil's gift."
    --Noam Chomsky

  7. #7
    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Thule
    Posts
    1,323

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    Satanists by defination do not worship nature - they worship Satan.
    Most satanists call themselfs satanists to offend the christian and muslim (and son on) church.
    They usually worship the nature of the human race and the nature of the ego. Modern Satanists doesnt believe in a god or a devil but in themself.
    Ofcourse there are nutcases that believe in satan and the anti-christ, but they are really few.
    You could say that most modern satanists cults ego-centristic but respects the life of others as long as they dont harm you.

    Atleast thats what ive heard from radio-programs, books, websites etc.
    www.overspun.com

    "Freedom without opportunity is a devil's gift."
    --Noam Chomsky

  8. #8
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,334

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    Satanists by defination do not worship nature - they worship Satan.

    The Wiccen (SP) worship aspects of nature. But like the author of the article stated

    Nature, after all, is always amoral and usually cruel. Nature has no moral laws, only the amoral law of survival of the fittest.

    Which is very true.
    Wiccans ARE satanists. They call themselves Satanists to keep away Christians, who they despise. They don't actually worship the christian devil, rather a force of nature. Go to their website. They specifically state they DO worship the spirit of nature.

  9. #9
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    First of all, jews/christians were not first to pray to One god, the Egyptians were.
    Thats not what he claimed. Also the Egyptian religion didnt last long and in fact the Pharoah who invented it was murdered because of it.

    But not in the stupid way wich the author talks about, as he states that those whom worship nature kill the weak. Not true in my case.
    Are you a vegetarian? Ohterwise your full of it. Also hes not saying those who worship nature kill the weak but that that is natures way, survival of the fittest.

    ts true that we humans differ from the other animals, but the reason as to why we take care of our wounded and weak is not becouse some old man with white beard on a cloud told us so, but becouse we CAN.
    No its not. We slaughter people reguarly. We take care of OUR wounded and weak because we care not because we can.

    So just becouse I "pray" or respect nature more then some "dude up there" wich sets weird rules doesnt mean I hate the weak and wish them dead
    He didnt say that either. Hes saying there is no morality in nature.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  10. #10
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Denver working on the Railroad
    Posts
    10,660

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazul
    The Native indians in your country worshiped nature, took care of their wounded and had a rather good system betwen men and women. Couse, their culture didnt stand a chance against savage, murderous christians expanding an empire.
    You have some mis-information there Lazul. Yes Native American's took care of the wounded of their tribe - but were less then kind to the wounded of their enemies. There is a book called the if I remember correctly written in the 1960's call "The Long Death" which is written from a neutral viewpoint in my opinion. It critizes the failed policies of the United States, the milipulation (SP) of the Indian Agents and all of the other negative aspects of the White Man's development of the West. However it also speaks frankly of what the Native American's also did. Do not try to paint Native Americans in such a romatic picture - because its a false one. Where the white's destroying the Native American's - Yes most definetly. Did the Native American's fight back - sometimes brillantly as in the case of the Lakota chieftan Red Cloud or the Nez Perez Chief Joseph. However there was much cruelty in the Native American culture toward their enemies. Women for many tribes were cattle for the men, in other tribes they were honored. Again careful on painting all Native Americans with a romanitic brush stroke - because it is frankly not true.

    So just becouse I "pray" or respect nature more then some "dude up there" wich sets weird rules doesnt mean I hate the weak and wish them dead.
    Nature worship by defination is amoral - has nothing to do with hate or wishing another being dead.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  11. #11
    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Thule
    Posts
    1,323

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    "Are you a vegetarian? Ohterwise your full of it. Also hes not saying those who worship nature kill the weak but that that is natures way, survival of the fittest."

    No im not a veggie, I see that as foolish since it against the nature of humanity not to eat meat, tho I agree that we eat to much meat.
    Im not full of it. *sigh* you really didnt understand what I ment did you?
    So if those that worship nature doesnt kill the weak and mimics the way other animals act, whats so harmfull about praying to nature and life?
    I see nature and life as holy, but that doesnt mean I cant eat meat.

    "No its not. We slaughter people reguarly."

    Yes becouse some humans are weak in their minds, not matured enough past the state of the beast or are forced to do so against their will.

    "He didnt say that either. Hes saying there is no morality in nature."

    So the once that pray to nature doesnt harm the weak and wounded, whats so harmfull about some praying to nature then?
    www.overspun.com

    "Freedom without opportunity is a devil's gift."
    --Noam Chomsky

  12. #12
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Denver working on the Railroad
    Posts
    10,660

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    Wiccans ARE satanists. They call themselves Satanists to keep away Christians, who they despise. They don't actually worship the christian devil, rather a force of nature. Go to their website. They specifically state they DO worship the spirit of nature.
    I know several wiccans there Byzantine Prince and they do not call themselves Satanists - they call themselves Wiccan. Some will even refer to themselves as Druids - but none have ever refered to worshipping Satan to keep away Christians. And try reading what I actually wrote BP instead of being arguementive - because I stated quite clearly

    The Wiccen (SP) worship aspects of nature.

    I would guess that you have a problem understanding simple english.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  13. #13
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    So the once that pray to nature doesnt harm the weak and wounded, whats so harmfull about some praying to nature then?
    Whats the good i it?

    I see that as foolish since it against the nature of humanity not to eat meat
    So then it is the nature of man to kill those weaker than he. Also we kill animals for many reasons other than food.

    Yes becouse some humans are weak in their minds, not matured enough past the state of the beast or are forced to do so against their will.
    They are only doing what comes naturally.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  14. #14
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Posts
    7,588

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Well, he is Albanian, not native born Canadian. He might really have a little difficulty understanding. Lord knows I wouldn't want to be taken to task on a Spanish language board.

    But Redleg has a good point, BP. You can add practicing Wiccans, like my sister-in-law, to the vast hordes of people you've offended if you persist in describing them as 'christian hating satanists in disguise'. They don't hate Christianity at all, and Satanists, by definition, worship Satan. Wiccans worship nature, not Satan. Satan is God's foe, not nature.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 06-21-2005 at 20:33.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  15. #15
    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Thule
    Posts
    1,323

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    You have some mis-information there Lazul. Yes Native American's took care of the wounded of their tribe - but were less then kind to the wounded of their enemies. There is a book called the if I remember correctly written in the 1960's call "The Long Death" which is written from a neutral viewpoint in my opinion. It critizes the failed policies of the United States, the milipulation (SP) of the Indian Agents and all of the other negative aspects of the White Man's development of the West. However it also speaks frankly of what the Native American's also did. Do not try to paint Native Americans in such a romatic picture - because its a false one. Where the white's destroying the Native American's - Yes most definetly. Did the Native American's fight back - sometimes brillantly as in the case of the Lakota chieftan Red Cloud or the Nez Perez Chief Joseph. However there was much cruelty in the Native American culture toward their enemies. Women for many tribes were cattle for the men, in other tribes they were honored. Again careful on painting all Native Americans with a romanitic brush stroke - because it is frankly not true.
    Well It wasnt my intention to paint them as romantic or such. Sorry if you took offence for some reason.
    So, the native americans were cruel against their enemies, who is/were not?
    what did the americans do to the native americans in many cases? while praying to the christian god.
    What are you americans doing now against your enemies? while praying to the christian god.
    What did the French do in north africa? while praying to the christian god.
    What did the English do in africa? while praying to the christian god.
    Seriosly, Cruelty can not be connected to the type of religion you have, its always there, allways will be there I fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    Nature worship by defination is amoral - has nothing to do with hate or wishing another being dead.
    not according to me.

    What im trying to say is that its no matter what religion, humans can and are in many cases just as cruel against their enemies. If the world was to pray to the christian god or to nature doesn matter.
    Every single person has the right to pray to his or her God, but nobody should point their finger and accuse someone of immorality as long as one doesnt harm him/her.
    We are all to blame for the fu**ed up world we live in.
    www.overspun.com

    "Freedom without opportunity is a devil's gift."
    --Noam Chomsky

  16. #16
    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Thule
    Posts
    1,323

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Whats the good i it?
    *sigh* why dont we just hop-around in a circle



    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    So then it is the nature of man to kill those weaker than he. Also we kill animals for many reasons other than food.
    I see nothing immoral about killing animals, as long as we dont do it as much as we do now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    They are only doing what comes naturally.
    never did claim that acting on instignt is good. If we were to all live like civilised people, we shouldnt have to harm each other and our civilized world would not give us any reasons to kill or harm each other.
    www.overspun.com

    "Freedom without opportunity is a devil's gift."
    --Noam Chomsky

  17. #17
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    *sigh* why dont we just hop-around in a circle
    Most religions pray to a god for a reason. What reason is their to pray to nature?

    I see nothing immoral about killing animals, as long as we dont do it as much as we do now.
    I never said it was. You seem to be contradiciting yourself with the last part of your answer here. I said there is no morality in nature. If killling animals for food is part of nature as I have stated there is no morality involved. Do you know the difference between amoral and immoral?
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 06-21-2005 at 20:45.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  18. #18
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,334

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Well, he is Albanian, not native born Canadian. He might really have a little difficulty understanding. Lord knows I wouldn't want to be taken to task on a Spanish language board.
    Well I'm not really Albanian. I was just born there. And of course I'm not a "native" Canadian. No I know is.

    Oh just for the record I understand english just fine. Dont' patronize me like you know better.

  19. #19
    The Blade Member JimBob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Chi Town
    Posts
    588

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    He didnt say that either. Hes saying there is no morality in nature.
    There is none of your morality in nature. Is your morality true for all people? If so, I'd like to see proof.
    And there is morality in nature.
    Shintoism sees kami (translated as spirits or gods) in everything and everywhere. Some are universal (sun, ect.) Some are specific to locations, an object of natural beauty or a unique object in nature (funky looking rock) can have kami. The worship of nature is a celebration of these kami.
    Taoism sees nature as simple as having wu-wei and accepting the Tao. Though nature does nothing it achieves much. The rain can destroy a mountian if given time, and a river can cut the earth, but what does a rock do when dropped in water? It sinks because the water can move. That is the morality that Taoism sees in nature.
    Native American is much like Shinto
    And Jainism believes that all life is holy and so all life is to be worshiped
    Sometimes I slumber on a bed of roses
    Sometimes I crash in the weeds
    One day a bowl full of cherries
    One night I'm suckin' on lemons and spittin' out the seeds
    -Roger Clyne and the Peacemakers, Lemons

  20. #20
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    The rain can destroy a mountian if given time, and a river can cut the earth, but what does a rock do when dropped in water? It sinks because the water can move. That is the morality that Taoism sees in nature.
    Where is the morality there?
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  21. #21
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Riding Shai-Hulud
    Posts
    5,346

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    I don't agree with the original article. The way i read it, the author is trying to say that animal rights and enviromental protection are against judeo-christian values.

    I agree that worshipping nature is indeed not a part of judeo-christian culture. However, there is nothing that forbids us from protecting nature. Genesis is notoriously unclear about what we are supposed to do with nature, can we just dominate it or are we its care takers ?

    I'm not the greatest animal rights person, however, I don't believe we should intentionally harm them, or inflict unnecessary harm. I see harm in a pretty strict sense, closely related to physical pain. I think this is in line with christian values of 'doing good'.

    Environmental protection has a few reasons, such as sentimental ones (I want my kids to see animals in the wild one day), recreational ones (I like walks in the park) and health concerns (how polluted is my drinking water ?).

    While the traditional Judeo-christian view is that we should dominate the earth. I believe in a need for harmony, for our own sake. And besides, if we are working towards the Kingdom of Heaven, we surely don't imagine it to look like a modern day industrial area ?
    Yes, Iraq is peaceful. Go to sleep now. - Adrian II

  22. #22
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Posts
    7,588

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Was the point of the article to say that only Judaism & Christianity are valid religions? Seems a little harsh and undiplomatic, if you ask me.

    While a lot of the religions mentioned, Hinduism, Shinto, etc. have strong respect for nature wrapped up in them, that doesn't mean they worship nature.

    And don't forget, we're not supposed to be scornful of nature either. It's God's creation, for us, and we're supposed to be good stewards of it. Didn't St. Paul say "Nothing the Lord has made is bad except mankind itself?" Again, I'm not saying we should worship nature, but we shouldn't despise it either.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  23. #23
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Denver working on the Railroad
    Posts
    10,660

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazul
    Well It wasnt my intention to paint them as romantic or such. Sorry if you took offence for some reason.
    No offensive taken.

    So, the native americans were cruel against their enemies, who is/were not?
    what did the americans do to the native americans in many cases? while praying to the christian god.
    I suggest you read the book I just finished if you want to know that answer "The Long Death" I might provide a link later.

    What are you americans doing now against your enemies? while praying to the christian god.
    Different point then about the Native Americans now is it not?
    When I fought in a war - I killed the enemy with Artillery, took prisoners when they surrendered and treated them like I would want to be treated. War is war - don't get yourself confused on that aspect - and war is amoral by its nature.
    What did the French do in north africa? while praying to the christian god.
    I am not French - and again is a different subject then what is being discussed.

    What did the English do in africa? while praying to the christian god.
    Same thing

    Seriosly, Cruelty can not be connected to the type of religion you have, its always there, allways will be there I fear.
    Once again worship of Nature is amoral - and has nothing to do with hate.

    What im trying to say is that its no matter what religion, humans can and are in many cases just as cruel against their enemies. If the world was to pray to the christian god or to nature doesn matter.
    Every single person has the right to pray to his or her God, but nobody should point their finger and accuse someone of immorality as long as one doesnt harm him/her.
    We are all to blame for the fu**ed up world we live in.
    Never said worshiping nature is immoral - I stated that it is amoral - Just like Nature is itself.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  24. #24
    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Thule
    Posts
    1,323

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Most religions pray to a god for a reason. What reason is their to pray to nature?
    I cant speak for "their" only for myself. And I cant say I "pray" to nature in the way christians pray to their god, I respect nature, thats my way. And se Life and Sexuality as holy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    I never said it was. You seem to be contradiciting yourself with the last part of your answer here. I said there is no morality in nature. If killling animals for food is part of nature as I have stated there is no morality involved. Do you know the difference between amoral and immoral?
    In my oppinion killing animals is neither morale or immoral or what ever. Its just something that needs to be done and its part of "nature", just as sex is.
    So veggies are unnatural according to me just as "holy people" who dont have sex.
    www.overspun.com

    "Freedom without opportunity is a devil's gift."
    --Noam Chomsky

  25. #25
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    I cant speak for "their" only for myself. And I cant say I "pray" to nature in the way christians pray to their god,
    Really. So nature has a place like heaven that you hope to go to?

    In my oppinion killing animals is neither morale or immoral or what ever.
    Thats what the article says. Nature is not moral its amoral. Thats a far different matter than it being immoral.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  26. #26
    Member Member Spetulhu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    818

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Most religions pray to a god for a reason. What reason is their to pray to nature?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lazul
    I cant speak for "their" only for myself. And I cant say I "pray" to nature in the way christians pray to their god, I respect nature, thats my way. And se Life and Sexuality as holy.
    Funny question, don't you think? What reason is there to pray to anything when you get down to it? Someone told the people a story long ago and it seemed like a good explanation of the world at that time. Pray to this god for a good harvest, pray to this one for skill in war etc. If some of those happen to be represented by nature, that just makes it easier yo grasp. Lumping it all under one invisible guy must have looked like a really deranged idea to sensible people when it happened.
    If you're fighting fair you've made a miscalculation.

  27. #27
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Funny question, don't you think? What reason is there to pray to anything when you get down to it?
    I already told you. Now you may think that concept of eternal life after death to be rubbish but all the same its the main reason most people follow a religion.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  28. #28
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Posts
    7,588

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    I guess it really comes down to what your definition of prayer is:

    Prayer can be

    praise (wow, you really are amazing)
    thanksgiving (I really appreciate...)
    repentance (I'm really sorry I...)
    inquiry (what exactly do you want me to do)
    request (I really need help with...)
    submission (you're the boss...)

    or even just simple dialouge. At the end of the day, prayer is communication with a higher being. I don't see how you do that with a concept, like 'nature'. If you believed in a Sun God, yeah, you could pray to him, but unless you believe the sun itself to be a conscious being that can hear your prayers, what would be the point of praying to it?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  29. #29
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Posts
    7,588

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Just out of curiosity, I've been tossing an idea around lately that's been troubling me.

    Do prayers of supplication make any sense for a true Christian? If you accept God's will as the plan for your life and submit to it, what business do you have asking for anything? Shouldn't we be working on coming to grips with and accepting whatever comes our way and just being thankful for it?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  30. #30

    Default Re: Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    I know several wiccans there Byzantine Prince and they do not call themselves Satanists - they call themselves Wiccan. Some will even refer to themselves as Druids - but none have ever refered to worshipping Satan to keep away Christians.
    You can add me to the list. I'm a Satanist and I HATE Wiccans.

    Lazul hit the nail on the head when he spoke about modern Satanists.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO