Appeasement Will Not Work in Middle East

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It has been enlightening to me. I'm originally from the Middle East. I was born in Jordan, and I lived there for about 21 years before I moved to the United States and I just want to share with you my perspective of the way people in the Middle East and in the Moslem world view us. They will hate us forever. The public image that we have is pretty bad. There is nothing we can do to improve that unless we do two things: Either try to convert them into democracy, or have them respect us. Respect is the only way.

I really think it's not going to change anything. The fact is that if you read the newspaper that's controlled, all the media that's being controlled by the governments of these Middle Eastern nations, they're all basically saying how the West is bad, how the United States is the root of evil; they're trying to influence, you know, the world, they're trying to take over. I mean if you look at all the propaganda that's being spewed over there, 'til today, I read it off the Internet, and I keep up with it, it is just appalling to me.

Absolutely. Mogadishu, Beirut. I mean they have that experience in the past -- and they feel like, any time we parade American soldiers being killed or executed, we going to feel like, "Oh, we need to pull out of there We can't keep going. This is ridiculous," you know? That's the understanding that they have, and this appeasement policy is not going to work. It's not going to change their minds. They've been brainwashed from a younger age, since they are in school, and in the media, everywhere, in mosques, everywhere, everybody is basically saying how to United States is so bad, how the West, you know, hate Moslems, and you're not going to change that overnight. I think strength, democracy is the only way to change that.

LINK

Of course what does this guy know?

[Krypta]

Of course what does this guy know?

Not much unless you wanted to hear from a uber right wing conservative. On the other hand if you wanted to know about OxyContin, Lorcet, Hydrocodone and black market drug rings, well then ofc you could consider him an expert on the matter.

[Tribesman]

Of course what does this guy know?
Pretty much bugger all by the sounds of it , has he not examined your countries foriegn policy ?

[PanzerJaeger]

Not much unless you wanted to hear from a uber right wing conservative. On the other hand if you wanted to know about OxyContin, Lorcet, Hydrocodone and black market drug rings, well then ofc you could consider him an expert on the matter.

I dont think you understand.

This was not Rush Limbaugh talking, it was someone from the middle east who called into his radio show.

Nice cheap shot though.. so clever.

[Krypta]

I dont think you understand.

This was not Rush Limbaugh talking, it was someone from the middle east who called into his radio show.

Nice cheap shot though.. so clever.

Erm no. The fella is an American, living in the US who is originally from the middle east (you did read it, right?)...which I understood the first time around...and it still doesn't change the fact that Rush Limbaugh is an arrogant, digusting, drug addict, drug pushing, uber conservative. There is nothing cheap about it, unless there is some sort of virtuosity in being hooked on prescription drugs and running a black market drug ring.

Moreover, since when does the opinion of some faceless caller on some talk radio show count as fact or should even be presented as fact. Now, I would like to thank Gawain personally for finally cutting down one of his articles into a somewhat reasonable length, however, he (Gawain) forgot to include that the Caller(Mr Ali), from which we are to reason that "Appeasement Will Not Work in Middle East", hasn't lived in the Middle East in nearly 30 years! Of course that could be me being clever or maybe it's a crafty bit of selective editing, take your pick.

Furthermore Panzer if this is how you shape your outlook on the world, because so and so told you so, and your too lazy to read the article without already having your mind made up, you should be thanking me for being clever enough to point it out to you.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

.and it still doesn't change the fact that Rush Limbaugh is an arrogant, digusting, drug addict, drug pushing, uber conservative.

You pretty much just destroyed your credibility there. At least you got the uber conservative part correct.

[Krypta]

You pretty much just destroyed your credibility there. At least you got the uber conservative part correct.

Rush was/is a drug addict and was/is a drug pusher, face it. Don't complain to me because you choose to use him or cite him.

Forget right/left for a minute. You don't have any problem citing some callers opinion, from a talk radio show, who doesn't even live in the middle east, who hasn't lived in the middle east in nearly 30 years, about an opinion concerning the middle east, and then insinuating that this guys opinion is gospel by saying "Of course what does this guy know?", like he's some sort expert"?

"Destroyed" credibility, colourful I must say, I almost spit my pop cuz it made me a chuckle. Rich very rich.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Rush was/is a drug addict and was/is a drug pusher, face it. Don't complain to me because you choose to use him or cite him.

Rush got addicted to pain killers after surgery. He was man enough to admit it and checked himself into rehab. He has been clean ever since. He aso never tried to portray himself as a victim but said he was sorry and that it was wrong of him. No excuses. Also I dont believe he was ever accused of selling drugs? I mean why would he. Hes already got more money than god.

You don't have any problem citing some callers opinion, from a talk radio show, who doesn't even live in the middle east, who hasn't lived in the middle east in nearly 30 years, about an opinion concerning the middle east, and then insinuating that this guys opinion is gospel by saying "Of course what does this guy know?", like he's some sort expert"?

He lived there for quite sometime it seems. 21 years to be exact. I would think he got a pretty good idea of what life was like there by then. Is it your position that the people over there like us better now than they did 26 years ago? No I dont have any problem with his credibiltiy.

[Pindar]

The thesis position reminds me of Roger Scruton's The West and the Rest: Globalization and the Terrorist Threat

[PanzerJaeger]

Erm no. The fella is an American, living in the US who is originally from the middle east (you did read it, right?)...which I understood the first time around...

Apparently you didnt understand it or you would have posted a response about the actual speaker, not some diatribe against Rush Limbaugh. Or possibly, you just take any chance you can to vent your (odd) rage against conservatives.

and it still doesn't change the fact that Rush Limbaugh is an arrogant, digusting, drug addict, drug pushing, uber conservative. There is nothing cheap about it, unless there is some sort of virtuosity in being hooked on prescription drugs and running a black market drug ring.

LoL - calm down, its going to be ok. Since when did liberals become such hateful little pricks?

Moreover, since when does the opinion of some faceless caller on some talk radio show count as fact or should even be presented as fact. Now, I would like to thank Gawain personally for finally cutting down one of his articles into a somewhat reasonable length, however, he (Gawain) forgot to include that the Caller(Mr Ali), from which we are to reason that "Appeasement Will Not Work in Middle East", hasn't lived in the Middle East in nearly 30 years! Of course that could be me being clever or maybe it's a crafty bit of selective editing, take your pick.

As I said, hes from the middle east.. What are you trying to prove?

Furthermore Panzer if this is how you shape your outlook on the world, because so and so told you so, and your too lazy to read the article without already having your mind made up, you should be thanking me for being clever enough to point it out to you.

Speaking of already having your mind made up before reading something, werent we talking about Rush Limbaugh?

The hypocrisy of you lecturing me about having a closed mind after your previous comments is overbearing.

[Krypta]

He was man enough to admit it and checked himself into rehab.

Twice.

Is it your position that the people over there like us better now than they did 26 years ago? No I dont have any problem with his credibiltiy.

I'm not an expert on middle east relations, so I couldn't tell you. What I can tell you is that, I wouldn't gleam snippets of information from a transcript of a talk radio show that was discussing the middle east, and present it as "credible" because one of the participants in that conversation happened to have lived in the middle east nearly 30 years ago. You honestly can't see any problem with this?

This could be a good discussion, but not using this as a basis.

[Krypta]

LoL - calm down, its going to be ok. Since when did liberals become such hateful little pricks?

Im a hateful little prick eh? If I had known you were gonna tear yourself away from the peanut butter jar and picture of Rush Limbaugh and go into a uber conservative hissy fit, I wouldn't have said anything.

As I said, hes from the middle east.. What are you trying to prove?

That this thread is bogus.

The hypocrisy of you lecturing me about having a closed mind after your previous comments is overbearing.

Yawn...lecturing you? I don't care what you think, I was pointing out the obvious.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I'm not an expert on middle east relations, so I couldn't tell you. What I can tell you is that, I wouldn't gleam snippets of information from a transcript of a talk radio show that was discussing the middle east, and present it as "credible" because one of the participants in that conversation happened to have lived in the middle east nearly 30 years ago. You honestly can't see any problem with this?

Not as far as using it for this I dont.

his could be a good discussion, but not using this as a basis.

How does that stop us from having a good discussion on the matter? In fact it started the whole thing.

But this.

Twice.

The fact that Rush did or even is doing drugs has nothing to do with the topic. OK we all know that you like many liberals cant stand Rush. That means hes doing his job well

[caesar44]

www.jihadwatch.org/archives/006564.php

www.jihadwatch.org



And this is in New York , not in Iran...

[Ironside]

Three comments:
Define appeasement.

Define strength.

Define respect.

[Leet Eriksson]

what appeasement? what respect?

Most middle eastern governments are allied to the US, from oman all the way to morroco. When bush likes to have it in the rear by the Al Saud family then all this talk = useless.

This guy hasn't even been in the middle east the past 30 years. so i'll quote Gawain again:

Of course what does this guy know?

[Husar]

what appeasement? what respect?

Most middle eastern governments are allied to the US, from oman all the way to morroco. When bush likes to have it in the rear by the Al Saud family then all this talk = useless.

This guy hasn't even been in the middle east the past 30 years. so i'll quote Gawain again:

Our middle-east expert has spoken.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Most middle eastern governments are allied to the US, from oman all the way to morroco. When bush likes to have it in the rear by the Al Saud family then all this talk = useless.

I dont think their allied with us because they like us or our policies . With allies like them who needs enemies..

[Leet Eriksson]

Hell yeah, what do you think allies are for, cuddly carebear love? Its all about interests in the end baby, as long as your adminstration keeps the oil coming in, these monarchies can keep stay in power and **** their own people over. Thanks America

From the Middle East with love,

Faisal.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Hell yeah, what do you think allies are for, cuddly carebear love? Its all about interests in the end baby, as long as your adminstration keeps the oil coming in, these monarchies can keep stay in power and **** their own people over. Thanks America

Thanks for proving my point.

[Husar]

Thanks for proving my point.

That the US is blackmailing these countries?

[Tribesman]

That the US is blackmailing these countries?
Well the government has to spend the taxpayers money somewhere .

[PanzerJaeger]

Exactly which countries are being blackmailed by the United States?

[caesar44]

Exactly which countries are being blackmailed by the United States?

Maybe he means Ireland ? the americans must have it againest Nazi Germany... oh , a ... ah , the war is over...

[Husar]

Faisal said "Its all about interests in the end baby, as long as your adminstration keeps the oil coming in, these monarchies can keep stay in power[...]"(I think there is something wrong with the grammatical direction of the oil, but I think I know what he means) and Gawain said it would prove his point, so Gawain´s point must have been that the US blackmails these monarchies and let´s them stay in power as long as they give their oil to the US.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Faisal said "Its all about interests in the end baby, as long as your adminstration keeps the oil coming in, these monarchies can keep stay in power[...]"(I think there is something wrong with the grammatical direction of the oil, but I think I know what he means) and Gawain said it would prove his point, so Gawain´s point must have been that the US blackmails these monarchies and let´s them stay in power as long as they give their oil to the US.

No my point was it was being said how all these nations were our allies and would gladly help us as Israel would do if asked. Again I would say we bribe them not blackmsil them unless its your position we threaten to invade them .

[Tribesman]

Maybe he means Ireland ?
Exellent example Caesar , well apart from its not in the middle-east .
If you examine our glorious leaders statements on why he was allowing US forces to use Irish facilities for the invasion of Iraq in breach of the Irish constitution then you will see it clearly spelt out , on public record , that it was in fact blackmail .

[Dâriûsh]

Maybe the United States should have invaded Saudi Arabia.

[Auctoritas]

Maybe the United States should have invaded Saudi Arabia.

Yoiks!! That would be a bitter pill indeed.

And some people think being involved in Iraq is difficult and complicated.

[Watchman]

Since when did liberals become such hateful little pricks?

Hey, can't let you right-wingers have all the fun now can we ?

That aside, the fellow originally linked is so full of it he's probably done like the Chagga men pretend to and lost his ...Rear Unloading Orifice. And that around the time he moved out of the Mideast. 'Course, by what I know of ole Rush the very fact he calls the show pretty much accounts to as much, but I digress.

Put bluntly, he sounds like a fscking nazi. The sorts of people who like to claim overwhelming force to be the only solution have a tendency to. Between the lines his little speech reads as "nuke 'em all and let's see if they dare to mess with us again", or in any case close enough as makes no difference.

What really beats me is why Gawain even linked the twerp's outburst. Mostly it makes it look like he doesn't practice the noble art of Source Critique, and/or sort of fails to realize linking that kind of ultra-rightist BS casts some serious doubts on the integrity of his judgement. I mean, some nameless goon who *says* he moved from the Middle East *over twenty years ago* telling how *the bad rag'eads won't rest 'till we're all dead so we better show 'em* on some pretty dubious arguments ? And he links that ?

Sheesh. There's character assasination and then there's character suicide.

Now leaving that aside, let's remember here that politically active Islam was a rare beast until around the Iranian Revolution, after which it has been markedly more on the agenda (my mother, old enough to have been paying attention and clever and educated enough to formulate reliable views, tends to observe that before Iran everybody in the West, Left and Right alike, thought Islam to be something of a nonentity in the field of international politics...). In the vast majority of cases if and when there's a radical Islamist organization operating inside a Muslim nation, it is more or less at constant loggerheads with the regime. Most of the regimes of these nations are reasonably unreligious and have reasonably good relations with the West in general and - at least the oil-producers - with the US in particular. This, and the more-or-less (usually less, but anyway) modernising agenda they have tends to put them at a basically opposite footing with the fundamentalists.

Why the fundamentalists are there in such numbers is another topic, and has more to do with sociology and social psychology and such things; for brevity let's just say it's a rejection reflex against the increasingly overbearing, alien, intrusive, bewildering and unprincipled "Western" brand of modernity that even many people in the West are rather uneasy with.

However, those regimes also have internal politics to worry about. The Saudis, for example, essentially bargain for internal stability with their domestic overly religious folks by making concessions - this keeps most of the more ardent believers happy enough that they don't actively start causing trouble. But, as we can see for example from a certain scion of the bin Ladens, not all of them are willing to buy it.

As for invading yet another country in a hunt for terrorists, get real. The US military is already stretched thin with just Iraq and Afghanistan (and it gets some UN aid in the latter too) and the whole thing makes the poor old national budget creak very alarmingly. For one you'd be doing that one *totally* alone - there's only so much even the most ardently pro-US statesman is willing to do for zero returns, especially seeing how he could pretty much kiss his career goodbye. An acute lack of legitimacy is problematic that way. Moreover, all it'd do would be to provide the next generation of Muslim militants with yet another chaotic live-fire practice range.

Besides, the bomb-throwing zealots are a pain in the butt for the local governements too. They're on your bloody side in that at least.

And Saudi Arabia ? God. You know what Osama tended to cite as his about main reason for turning against his erstwhile patrons the Americans ? The presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia offended him deeply; the Saudis are bnasically the guardians and caretakers of the two most sacred places in the whole religion, and the extended presence of infidel soldiers on the same national soil as the holy cities is apparently quite insufferable to sufficiently devout (ie. extreme) Muslims. There's actually some murky historical reason for that, something about some early Caliph resettling all non-Muslims from the immediate area elsewhere, but anyway.

Now you get about three guesses what happens if you invade the place... The fact that the Europeans would be leaving you seriously high, dry and lonely so as not to be caught in the blast radius would be only the tip of a very big iceberg of pure trouble.