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Thread: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Hey Ive been saying this forever.

    What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?
    By George H. Wittman
    Published 6/22/2005 12:05:35 AM

    For those of us -- and there are millions -- who have gone through U.S. Army basic training or Marine Corps boot camp the complaints of Senator Richard Durbin regarding the treatment of the prisoners at Camp Delta in Guantanamo are laughable.

    One wonders what Durbin and the folks at Amnesty International would say if their little darlings had been forced to stand at attention in 100-degree heat for two or more hours at Fort Jackson or Camp Lejeune in full combat gear, with 60 pounds of ammo and equipment, waiting for a general inspection. "What time did you get up, soldier?" the inspecting officer invariably asks the first trooper in line. The answer is always the same. "Reveille, sir." As long as you said that, you didn't have to admit you and your buddies had been up for 36 hours straight "G I-ing" the barracks, the company street, your weapons and everything that moved or stood in the area.

    "Drop down and give me 20, 30, 50," the training cadre would demand, and the shaved head recruit falls to the ground and completes his push-ups -- sometimes to the point of exhaustion for those not in top condition. The heel of the corporal on your back tends to make the task a bit more difficult. Gosh, we should have had some of those ACLU lawyers.

    Another fine element of training occurs when a drill sergeant's mouth is so close to yours his shouts spit saliva till it runs down your face. One flinch brings an order for 30 perfect push-ups or an evening of jogging around the company area with a rifle held with both hands above one's head while the miscreant shouts the General Orders.

    Definitely too tough for those unfortunate terrorists.

    Senator Durbin, whose biography shows he spent the Vietnam War in law school, knows nothing of an American soldier's training life -- and we are talking about only those first eight weeks of basic training, not the far tougher regimen for Ranger, SEAL, Recon or Special Forces.

    He says he's appalled the Gitmo terrorists had to sit or stand in stress positions while under interrogation. What about crawling into and cleaning out an eight-foot deep grease pit attached to each mess hall. That's a nice little punishment for arriving late to formation. Or what about a 25-mile march with a full field pack, your weapon and ammo, and only one canteen of water?

    Senator Durbin is deeply worried about the impression that is caused internationally when a terrorist prisoner complains his "space" has been invaded by a female interrogator. Oh, dear me, did that female make the poor prisoner feel badly? An American soldier yearns for such "intimidation." A recruit has no "space." He or she is government property.

    From what type of mental illness does Senator Durbin suffer? What country has Durbin been inhabiting? From what planet does this civilian feather merchant come? Senator, don't insult the hundreds of thousands of on-duty servicemen and women and the millions of veterans by your politically inspired pettifogging complaints.

    Perhaps Senator Durbin doesn't understand what it takes to be an American soldier or Marine. Perhaps he thinks the families of the terrorists should be thought of before the families of the victims of 9/11 or those of our fallen warriors. He speaks of Guantanamo as an embarrassment. It is he who embarrasses those who have served.
    Poor little terrorists. We should send them to PI.
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    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    I've said it before and i'll keep repeating it, it isn't the treatment as much as it is the fact they have never received a proper trial that is worrying.

    How a country deals with its criminals, or even enemies, is its business. Has anyone actually heard what French jails used to be like ? The suspected terrorists have got it really easy compared to that. However, only convicted criminals should be treated as as convicted criminals
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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    One wonders what Durbin and the folks at Amnesty International would say if their little darlings had been forced to stand at attention in 100-degree heat for two or more hours at Fort Jackson or Camp Lejeune in full combat gear, with 60 pounds of ammo and equipment, waiting for a general inspection.
    That's where I did basic. It was during July and August a few years ago, and I swear to God that it's the hottest place on the entire planet.

    Anyway, as for the content, exactly right once again. They should take a look at the US Army's POW school.

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    Intifadah Member Dâriűsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    What kind of inappropriate comparison is this?


    These soldiers volunteered to undergo this treatment. The suspects in Guantanamo Bay, Bagrām, and Abu Ghraib did not.
    "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."


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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Lets let them go and allow them to be killed when they attack. Hey, they wont mind they get like 7 virgins or something.

    (Yes thats a straw man argument.)

    Point is if you think these guys will happily go back to Iraq, Iran, Saudi, Malaysia, Jordan or where ever and open a shop and contribute to building there country your niave. They will end up dead. The question is how many American soldiers, Iraqi police and innocent civilians will end up dead because of them?

    But that's okay, I mean we want to protect thier rights and all. There rights are way more important then thier targets.

    Should our miltary collect evidence on the battlefield a la CSI: Kabul?

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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dâriűsh
    These soldiers volunteered to undergo this treatment. The suspects in Guantanamo Bay, Bagrām, and Abu Ghraib did not.
    They volunteered for it when they decided to become fighters not aligned with any nation and out of uniform, and should be summarily shot as is allowed under the laws of war.

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    Intifadah Member Dâriűsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    They volunteered for it when they decided to become fighters not aligned with any nation and out of uniform, and should be summarily shot as is allowed under the laws of war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dâriűsh
    The suspects in Guantanamo Bay, Bagrām, and Abu Ghraib did not.
    I took the liberty to put the word “suspect” in bold, as I am sure you missed it.

    And it’s 72 virgins.
    "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."


    I only defended myself and the honor of my family” - Nazanin

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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dâriűsh
    I took the liberty to put the word “suspect” in bold, as I am sure you missed it.
    The Combat Status Review Panels gave them three rights:

    1. They had the opportunity to contest their designation as an enemy combatant.

    2. They had an opportunity to consult with a personal representative.

    3. They had the right to seek a writ of habeas corpus.

    Once the CSRPs were completed, an independent board reviewed every case. Those that were found not to be a threat were released, those that were found to be conbatants were kept.

    In addition, there are annual reviews of every detainee's status.

    But you're right. Let's just assign a forensics team to every infantryman in Iraq.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dâriűsh
    And it’s 72 virgins.
    What a deal.

  9. #9
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Ok.This is an joke so dont get mad, but i cant help myself.What i read The US is giving standard infantry training to those suspects.Shouldnt they be gratefull?
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?
    Butlins....@Minehead...I remember when I was 11...I formed an escape committee .....those damn Redcoats on the gates, never did escape until the week was over..
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    In Bootcamp can you dropout or are you sent to solitary for failing to complete it?

    100 Degrees... try going to school in Perth.

    Typically the start of school term is 40 to 44 degrees C. Thats 104 to 111 F. And we still play sport in those conditions.

    Or working in Sumatra and Borneo a balmy 97+ Fahrenheit and 98 to 100% humidity. Hiking for ten to twelve hours a day through thick jungle with an incline over 1:1 in some instances, through swamp, clay mud, quicksand, thornbushes etc With injuries such as 3rd degree burns, diahorrea, mass bruising, lacerations. Joys of tick swarms... tiny red brown ticks so small that they are hard to see as individuals but as a mass swarm up your arm changing the tone of your skin a couple of shades towards latte brown. Leaches that bury through your boots and socks and suck the blood, yet since it is so humid you don't feel your socks filling up with blood until you take them off at the end of the day. Being beneath the jungle canopy and hearing the roar of the thunderstorm coming in like waves crashing at the beach. The fall of rain so thick that despite being under 30meters (90foot) of canopy you can barely make out the outline of your team who are within 6 foot of you, the terrible cold as your body goes from an environment of humid body temperature to icy rain. You sweat so much that if you hold off going for a p!ss the water will be reabsorbed into your body and you don't feel the need any longer. You can drink a litre and a half (2 pints) of cordial before lunch and still finish a large meal, and by the time you are hiking again you are sweating cordial (it is sweet to the taste).

    Or East of Marble Bar, where at the end of the day of hiking through the desert I felt cold at then end of the days exploration when sitting in the shade wearing jeans, flannel shirt, hat and steel caps and it was 38C (100F). The red desert with snake and lizard tracks. You know you are getting dehydrated at the end of the day despite drinking over 6 L of water which you carry as you go, why? Because instead of imagining a beach with babes over the dune and their welcoming attentions, you imagine the same beach and running past the babes for the cool waters.

    The thing is at the end of the day as long as I had a beer and a shower I was fine. I also had the option of ending it and going home. Choice makes a huge difference over how one feels about a situation. Of course if you understand yourself well enough you can always choose to be happy.
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    They volunteered for it when they decided to become fighters not aligned with any nation and out of uniform, and should be summarily shot as is allowed under the laws of war.
    Ah... but my dear Prole , the administration has incarcerated people in this "tropical paradise hoiday camp with a really good menu and lots of fun activities" without them meeting the criteria that you mention as justification .

    So... should they write to their travel agent and ask for a refund ?

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Well army training to me has always seemed cruel and overly harsh. But one needs to be a bit desensitized to be a soldier, I suppose... And I'm a wus.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
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    Member Member Spetulhu's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Army training is harsh so the soldiers don't fold the first day in the field. They're already used to abuse and poor conditions. They might even like it.

    Actually, that's also a very old method of indoctrinating people. Treat them like dirt, force them to endure bad conditions, and then tell them how very tough and elite they are. Only the best can do what they've done, and now they're fine enough to stay in the best army there ever was. Everyone wants to feel special.
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    How a country deals with its criminals, or even enemies, is its business.
    Isnt that the truth.

    Dick Durban disgraced this country and especially our soldiers. The sad thing is - most liberals agree with the Nazi comparisons.

    We wont ever win abroad if we dont destroy the fifth column within.

  16. #16
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    That's where I did basic. It was during July and August a few years ago, and I swear to God that it's the hottest place on the entire planet.

    Anyway, as for the content, exactly right once again. They should take a look at the US Army's POW school.
    Wow you were in the service. My compliments. I was at PI and it was no picnic there either as any of you who have seen Full Metal Jacket can testify to. Even that doesnt convey the true brutality that you can endure there. By the way after I joined FMF I worked in escape and evasion school as a Gomer. You should see the torture we put our own pilots through.

    These soldiers volunteered to undergo this treatment.
    I didnt volunter to be tortured but to serve my country. You dont imagine the stuff they do to you in basic or most wouldnt even go there. Besides that most peole were drafted when I was in. What do you say to those who were drafted then?

    Once more all those in Gitmo are lucky to be alive. We could have shot every last one of them on the spot when we caught them. Thats what Patton would have done.
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    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Quote:
    How a country deals with its criminals, or even enemies, is its business.
    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    Isnt that the truth.

    Dick Durban disgraced this country and especially our soldiers. The sad thing is - most liberals agree with the Nazi comparisons.

    We wont ever win abroad if we dont destroy the fifth column within.
    You really know how to scare me.
    You think the way the Hitler or Stalin treated 'criminals, or even enemies' was their own business. Or Saddam?
    What do you mean with destroying the fifth column? Physical destruction? Is this a Hitler quote?

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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    I thought this was going to be a joke and the answer was "two Gitmos"

    Surely if any insulting has gone on, Mr Wittman has insulted American servicemen and women by comparing their experiences to the experiences of people he considers to be terrorists.

    There are two issues here, incarceration, and torture. We shouldn't confuse them.

    Torture is wrong. First, because it is. The nature of the act itself makes it always wrong. Second, for the utilitarians amongst us, because as has been often shown, information obtained by torture is unreliable.

    (NB I would distinguish torture from REASONABLE measures designed to secure the safety of prison staff and to secure obedience to REASONABLE requests made in running the camp. A short spell of solitary for disobedience, or handcuffing a prisoner to take him from place to place, is not torture. Civil libertarians offer an easy target to the authoritarians if they complain too much at minor things.)

    Incarceration is more difficult. In principle removing someone's liberty is not much nice than torturing them. However, I am coming round to the argument that IF there is an enemy who is not in the armed forces of another state, and who for practical and legal reasons can't be dealt with as a criminal, then some sort of intermediate status may be justifiable.

    The issue. though, is that that status must still be subject to the rule of law. How is it determined that these people are a threat sufficient to justify indefinite detention, and how is that status kept under review? These aren't questions to be brushed aside with a reference to boot camp, asking and answering them is a key test of whether you live under the rule of law or not. If the Combat Status Review Panels are chaired by an independent person, and the detainees have sight of all of the evidence against them and access to an independent lawyer to make their case, and if they understand what it is that has to be proved before they can continue to be detained, and if the Combat Status Review Panels are themselves subject to judicial oversight, then I agree they are an adequate safeguard.

    Of course the rule of law is for pussys, wimps, and other liberals, until its YOU they come and harrass, or its YOUR job that goes because no one invests in a country where power is used arbitrarily, or its YOUR son/daughter who gets blown up in iraq because Gitmo is the best recruiting sergeant for the terrorists ever devised. Then maybe you see the value in it and even in the ACLU
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    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus
    Quote:
    How a country deals with its criminals, or even enemies, is its business.

    You really know how to scare me.
    You think the way the Hitler or Stalin treated 'criminals, or even enemies' was their own business. Or Saddam?
    I said country, not brutal dictator. And I do believe the basic human rights should be respected, however, rapes of (female) inmates tend to happen in places like Pakistan far more often than in the US for some reason, so i'm willing to give the Americans some benefits of doubt.

    But seriously, jail is hell in many places, I believe in the rule of law, and it should be applied in a good, strict way, however, once someone has been found guilty what happens then is mostly up to the country imho. Not that I don't think those people shouldn't be treated with a minimum of respect, but some people would want us to treat criminals better than some normal law-abiding citizens have it: free meals, fitness facilities, tv, no work,....

    The real problem lies in how dictators like Saddam arbitrarily imprisoned and tortured people who hadn't done any wrong. The US also went a bit paranoid and put a lot of people in Gitmo that shouldn't have been arrested. Most of them probably have gotten released by now, so it isn't all bad.

    Gitmo isn't that bad compared to a lot of places, I'd probably prefer it to Turkish prison and certainly to old (around the revolution) French prisons. It's a bit silly that they don't allow the UN to inspect, but I haven't heard any real horror stories yet. The inmates have to pee in their pants and sleep on hard beds, big deal. It's not like they're getting random objects shoved into random orifices. The latest accusation is that they used a persons medical record against him. Certainly a quite appalling thing to do taken at face value. However, what did they actually do ? The guy was scared of the dark ! It's not like they were punching him in some already damaged organ, or put an eye out or anything.
    I fear the current cries of torture are making people forget what real torture is like, and that that is still going on to, maybe not so much in/by the US, but still.

    On a slightly different note, if I were in any position to influence the policy in Gitmo, I'd let the prisoners read something else than the Quo'ran. It probably gets boring after having rad it a few hundred times already. And if they're real fundamentalists, they know it by heart already.
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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Gitmo isn't that bad compared to a lot of places,
    Don't you think America ought to be trying to show the world best practice, rather than taking comfort from the fact that a Turkish prison is probably worse?
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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    How a country deals with its criminals, or even enemies, is its business.

    Isnt that the truth.
    Even if they are American citizens in a Al Qaida cave ??

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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    I find it pretty intresting,that the US didnt give POW status to suspected Al Qaida fighters.That way they could keep this guys locked down how long they would like,because i dont think we are going to see peace between these parties in near future.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by doc_bean
    I said country, not brutal dictator. And I do believe the basic human rights should be respected.
    ...
    But seriously, jail is hell in many places, I believe in the rule of law, and it should be applied in a good, strict way, however, once someone has been found guilty what happens then is mostly up to the country imho. Not that I don't think those people shouldn't be treated with a minimum of respect, but some people would want us to treat criminals better than some normal law-abiding citizens have it: free meals, fitness facilities, tv, no work,.... .

    The real problem lies in how dictators like Saddam arbitrarily imprisoned and tortured people who hadn't done any wrong. The US also went a bit paranoid and put a lot of people in Gitmo that shouldn't have been arrested. Most of them probably have gotten released by now, so it isn't all bad .
    agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by doc_bean
    Gitmo isn't that bad compared to a lot of places, I'd probably prefer it to Turkish prison and certainly to old (around the revolution) French prisons. It's a bit silly that they don't allow the UN to inspect, but I haven't heard any real horror stories yet. The inmates have to pee in their pants and sleep on hard beds, big deal. It's not like they're getting random objects shoved into random orifices. The latest accusation is that they used a persons medical record against him. Certainly a quite appalling thing to do taken at face value. However, what did they actually do ? The guy was scared of the dark ! It's not like they were punching him in some already damaged organ, or put an eye out or anything.
    I fear the current cries of torture are making people forget what real torture is like, and that that is still going on to, maybe not so much in/by the US, but still. .
    agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by doc_bean
    On a slightly different note, if I were in any position to influence the policy in Gitmo, I'd let the prisoners read something else than the Quo'ran. It probably gets boring after having rad it a few hundred times already. And if they're real fundamentalists, they know it by heart already.
    agreed
    I once red an article about how the Chinese treated the US POW in the Korean war. They tried to brainwash them and they were very successful. When they were released most of them believed that communism is not bad. Maybe not the right system for the US but the best for China.
    Why not do the same in Gitmo?

  24. #24
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain
    Wow you were in the service. My compliments.
    Thanks. To you, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Don't you think America ought to be trying to show the world best practice, rather than taking comfort from the fact that a Turkish prison is probably worse?
    It is the best practice. Name another country in the history of mankind you would rather be detained by.

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    The issue. though, is that that status must still be subject to the rule of law. How is it determined that these people are a threat sufficient to justify indefinite detention, and how is that status kept under review? These aren't questions to be brushed aside with a reference to boot camp, asking and answering them is a key test of whether you live under the rule of law or not. If the Combat Status Review Panels are chaired by an independent person, and the detainees have sight of all of the evidence against them and access to an independent lawyer to make their case, and if they understand what it is that has to be proved before they can continue to be detained, and if the Combat Status Review Panels are themselves subject to judicial oversight, then I agree they are an adequate safeguard.
    This is pretty much what I said.

    Btw, nice post, doc bean.

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    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by kagemusha
    I find it pretty intresting,that the US didnt give POW status to suspected Al Qaida fighters.That way they could keep this guys locked down how long they would like,because i dont think we are going to see peace between these parties in near future.
    If my mind serves the US and their allies did not declare war to Iraq. And there was no ceasefire. Bush just declared the end of military operations. Why did he do this so undefined. What is the legal status now? Is it still war? Is it peace? Or has there never been war?

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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus
    If my mind serves the US and their allies did not declare war to Iraq. And there was no ceasefire. Bush just declared the end of military operations. Why did he do this so undefined. What is the legal status now? Is it still war? Is it peace? Or has there never been war?
    I think the attack on Iraq was illegal because it didnt have UN´s support.But if would criticize US,i wouldn´t focus on Gitmo.I would focus on that what is happening in prisons in Iraq.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Name another country in the history of mankind you would rather be detained by.
    Are you serious?

    Iceland. They let prisoners out at weekends and bank holidays I hear.

    Or, the UK. We started out in NI with internment, beatings and stress positions. All very Gitmo. Then it was stopped, after the ECHR got involved. Its that rule of law thing again.

    Anyway, this is by the by, since I have done nothing wrong and should not be detained by anyone. So I would prefer to be in the hands of a country with appalling prisons but excellent procedures to determine guilt and innocence, than a country with excellent prisons and appalling procedures to decide who to put in them.

    The difference between us, Proletariat, is I don't believe the Combat Status review panels meet the standards I described. And it might have been nice if it hadn't taken a supreme court ruling before they were established.
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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Are you serious?

    Iceland. They let prisoners out at weekends and bank holidays I hear.

    Or, the UK. We started out in NI with internment, beatings and stress positions. All very Gitmo. Then it was stopped, after the ECHR got involved. Its that rule of law thing again.
    Sorry, I meant in a military setting. (NI?)

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    The difference between us, Proletariat, is I don't believe the Combat Status review panels meet the standards I described.
    They've caught tens of thousands of these people over there, and only about 500 are still held in Gauntanamo. You really think the CSRPs haven't weeded out just about all but the worst of the worst? Skepticism is healthy, but this doesn't seem like a real problem to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    And it might have been nice if it hadn't taken a supreme court ruling before they were established.
    I agree.
    Last edited by Proletariat; 06-27-2005 at 14:51.

  29. #29
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by kagemusha
    I think the attack on Iraq was illegal because it didnt have UN´s support.But if would criticize US,i wouldn´t focus on Gitmo.I would focus on that what is happening in prisons in Iraq.
    Let us not discuss if the war is illegal. Just why was it not declared. I may be a bit oldfashioned. But the US would have had no disadvantage. Everybody new they would attack. It was no surprise to Saddam.

  30. #30

    Default Re: What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

    I agree with everything said in the article accept this piece:
    He or she is government property
    That statement is not true, they are people they are just in custody now. The compairison between our soldiers training and how we treat prisoners is a weak argument, although the point is taken. Besides our training is what makes us the best armed force in the known world. When your a prisoner, you should be expecting to be treated badly I mean our american prisoners {in america} are treated worse than these guys. At least they don't have a "Buba" there that is going to break your legs then saudamise you. They got it easy, and anyone who sais otherwise had better have a really good reason for doing so.
    Last edited by |OCS|Virus; 06-27-2005 at 14:53.

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