What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Hey Ive been saying this forever.

What Could Be Worse Than Gitmo?
By George H. Wittman
Published 6/22/2005 12:05:35 AM

For those of us -- and there are millions -- who have gone through U.S. Army basic training or Marine Corps boot camp the complaints of Senator Richard Durbin regarding the treatment of the prisoners at Camp Delta in Guantanamo are laughable.

One wonders what Durbin and the folks at Amnesty International would say if their little darlings had been forced to stand at attention in 100-degree heat for two or more hours at Fort Jackson or Camp Lejeune in full combat gear, with 60 pounds of ammo and equipment, waiting for a general inspection. "What time did you get up, soldier?" the inspecting officer invariably asks the first trooper in line. The answer is always the same. "Reveille, sir." As long as you said that, you didn't have to admit you and your buddies had been up for 36 hours straight "G I-ing" the barracks, the company street, your weapons and everything that moved or stood in the area.

"Drop down and give me 20, 30, 50," the training cadre would demand, and the shaved head recruit falls to the ground and completes his push-ups -- sometimes to the point of exhaustion for those not in top condition. The heel of the corporal on your back tends to make the task a bit more difficult. Gosh, we should have had some of those ACLU lawyers.

Another fine element of training occurs when a drill sergeant's mouth is so close to yours his shouts spit saliva till it runs down your face. One flinch brings an order for 30 perfect push-ups or an evening of jogging around the company area with a rifle held with both hands above one's head while the miscreant shouts the General Orders.

Definitely too tough for those unfortunate terrorists.

Senator Durbin, whose biography shows he spent the Vietnam War in law school, knows nothing of an American soldier's training life -- and we are talking about only those first eight weeks of basic training, not the far tougher regimen for Ranger, SEAL, Recon or Special Forces.

He says he's appalled the Gitmo terrorists had to sit or stand in stress positions while under interrogation. What about crawling into and cleaning out an eight-foot deep grease pit attached to each mess hall. That's a nice little punishment for arriving late to formation. Or what about a 25-mile march with a full field pack, your weapon and ammo, and only one canteen of water?

Senator Durbin is deeply worried about the impression that is caused internationally when a terrorist prisoner complains his "space" has been invaded by a female interrogator. Oh, dear me, did that female make the poor prisoner feel badly? An American soldier yearns for such "intimidation." A recruit has no "space." He or she is government property.

From what type of mental illness does Senator Durbin suffer? What country has Durbin been inhabiting? From what planet does this civilian feather merchant come? Senator, don't insult the hundreds of thousands of on-duty servicemen and women and the millions of veterans by your politically inspired pettifogging complaints.

Perhaps Senator Durbin doesn't understand what it takes to be an American soldier or Marine. Perhaps he thinks the families of the terrorists should be thought of before the families of the victims of 9/11 or those of our fallen warriors. He speaks of Guantanamo as an embarrassment. It is he who embarrasses those who have served.

Poor little terrorists. We should send them to PI.

[doc_bean]

I've said it before and i'll keep repeating it, it isn't the treatment as much as it is the fact they have never received a proper trial that is worrying.

How a country deals with its criminals, or even enemies, is its business. Has anyone actually heard what French jails used to be like ? The suspected terrorists have got it really easy compared to that. However, only convicted criminals should be treated as as convicted criminals

[Proletariat]

One wonders what Durbin and the folks at Amnesty International would say if their little darlings had been forced to stand at attention in 100-degree heat for two or more hours at Fort Jackson or Camp Lejeune in full combat gear, with 60 pounds of ammo and equipment, waiting for a general inspection.

That's where I did basic. It was during July and August a few years ago, and I swear to God that it's the hottest place on the entire planet.

Anyway, as for the content, exactly right once again. They should take a look at the US Army's POW school.

[Proletariat]

Lets let them go and allow them to be killed when they attack. Hey, they wont mind they get like 7 virgins or something.

(Yes thats a straw man argument.)

Point is if you think these guys will happily go back to Iraq, Iran, Saudi, Malaysia, Jordan or where ever and open a shop and contribute to building there country your niave. They will end up dead. The question is how many American soldiers, Iraqi police and innocent civilians will end up dead because of them?

But that's okay, I mean we want to protect thier rights and all. There rights are way more important then thier targets.

Should our miltary collect evidence on the battlefield a la CSI: Kabul?

[Dâriûsh]

What kind of inappropriate comparison is this?


These soldiers volunteered to undergo this treatment. The suspects in Guantanamo Bay, Bagrām, and Abu Ghraib did not.

[Proletariat]

These soldiers volunteered to undergo this treatment. The suspects in Guantanamo Bay, Bagrām, and Abu Ghraib did not.

They volunteered for it when they decided to become fighters not aligned with any nation and out of uniform, and should be summarily shot as is allowed under the laws of war.

[Dâriûsh]

They volunteered for it when they decided to become fighters not aligned with any nation and out of uniform, and should be summarily shot as is allowed under the laws of war.

The suspects in Guantanamo Bay, Bagrām, and Abu Ghraib did not.

I took the liberty to put the word “suspect” in bold, as I am sure you missed it.

And it’s 72 virgins.

[Proletariat]

I took the liberty to put the word “suspect” in bold, as I am sure you missed it.

The Combat Status Review Panels gave them three rights:

1. They had the opportunity to contest their designation as an enemy combatant.

2. They had an opportunity to consult with a personal representative.

3. They had the right to seek a writ of habeas corpus.

Once the CSRPs were completed, an independent board reviewed every case. Those that were found not to be a threat were released, those that were found to be conbatants were kept.

In addition, there are annual reviews of every detainee's status.

But you're right. Let's just assign a forensics team to every infantryman in Iraq.

And it’s 72 virgins.

What a deal.

[Kagemusha]

Ok.This is an joke so dont get mad, but i cant help myself.What i read The US is giving standard infantry training to those suspects.Shouldnt they be gratefull?

[Steppe Merc]

Well army training to me has always seemed cruel and overly harsh. But one needs to be a bit desensitized to be a soldier, I suppose... And I'm a wus.

[Spetulhu]

Army training is harsh so the soldiers don't fold the first day in the field. They're already used to abuse and poor conditions. They might even like it.

Actually, that's also a very old method of indoctrinating people. Treat them like dirt, force them to endure bad conditions, and then tell them how very tough and elite they are. Only the best can do what they've done, and now they're fine enough to stay in the best army there ever was. Everyone wants to feel special.

[PanzerJaeger]

How a country deals with its criminals, or even enemies, is its business.

Isnt that the truth.

Dick Durban disgraced this country and especially our soldiers. The sad thing is - most liberals agree with the Nazi comparisons.

We wont ever win abroad if we dont destroy the fifth column within.

[Franconicus]

Quote:
How a country deals with its criminals, or even enemies, is its business.

Isnt that the truth.

Dick Durban disgraced this country and especially our soldiers. The sad thing is - most liberals agree with the Nazi comparisons.

We wont ever win abroad if we dont destroy the fifth column within.

You really know how to scare me.
You think the way the Hitler or Stalin treated 'criminals, or even enemies' was their own business. Or Saddam?
What do you mean with destroying the fifth column? Physical destruction? Is this a Hitler quote?

[English assassin]

I thought this was going to be a joke and the answer was "two Gitmos"

Surely if any insulting has gone on, Mr Wittman has insulted American servicemen and women by comparing their experiences to the experiences of people he considers to be terrorists.

There are two issues here, incarceration, and torture. We shouldn't confuse them.

Torture is wrong. First, because it is. The nature of the act itself makes it always wrong. Second, for the utilitarians amongst us, because as has been often shown, information obtained by torture is unreliable.

(NB I would distinguish torture from REASONABLE measures designed to secure the safety of prison staff and to secure obedience to REASONABLE requests made in running the camp. A short spell of solitary for disobedience, or handcuffing a prisoner to take him from place to place, is not torture. Civil libertarians offer an easy target to the authoritarians if they complain too much at minor things.)

Incarceration is more difficult. In principle removing someone's liberty is not much nice than torturing them. However, I am coming round to the argument that IF there is an enemy who is not in the armed forces of another state, and who for practical and legal reasons can't be dealt with as a criminal, then some sort of intermediate status may be justifiable.

The issue. though, is that that status must still be subject to the rule of law. How is it determined that these people are a threat sufficient to justify indefinite detention, and how is that status kept under review? These aren't questions to be brushed aside with a reference to boot camp, asking and answering them is a key test of whether you live under the rule of law or not. If the Combat Status Review Panels are chaired by an independent person, and the detainees have sight of all of the evidence against them and access to an independent lawyer to make their case, and if they understand what it is that has to be proved before they can continue to be detained, and if the Combat Status Review Panels are themselves subject to judicial oversight, then I agree they are an adequate safeguard.

Of course the rule of law is for pussys, wimps, and other liberals, until its YOU they come and harrass, or its YOUR job that goes because no one invests in a country where power is used arbitrarily, or its YOUR son/daughter who gets blown up in iraq because Gitmo is the best recruiting sergeant for the terrorists ever devised. Then maybe you see the value in it and even in the ACLU

[doc_bean]

Quote:
How a country deals with its criminals, or even enemies, is its business.

You really know how to scare me.
You think the way the Hitler or Stalin treated 'criminals, or even enemies' was their own business. Or Saddam?

I said country, not brutal dictator. And I do believe the basic human rights should be respected, however, rapes of (female) inmates tend to happen in places like Pakistan far more often than in the US for some reason, so i'm willing to give the Americans some benefits of doubt.

But seriously, jail is hell in many places, I believe in the rule of law, and it should be applied in a good, strict way, however, once someone has been found guilty what happens then is mostly up to the country imho. Not that I don't think those people shouldn't be treated with a minimum of respect, but some people would want us to treat criminals better than some normal law-abiding citizens have it: free meals, fitness facilities, tv, no work,....

The real problem lies in how dictators like Saddam arbitrarily imprisoned and tortured people who hadn't done any wrong. The US also went a bit paranoid and put a lot of people in Gitmo that shouldn't have been arrested. Most of them probably have gotten released by now, so it isn't all bad.

Gitmo isn't that bad compared to a lot of places, I'd probably prefer it to Turkish prison and certainly to old (around the revolution) French prisons. It's a bit silly that they don't allow the UN to inspect, but I haven't heard any real horror stories yet. The inmates have to pee in their pants and sleep on hard beds, big deal. It's not like they're getting random objects shoved into random orifices. The latest accusation is that they used a persons medical record against him. Certainly a quite appalling thing to do taken at face value. However, what did they actually do ? The guy was scared of the dark ! It's not like they were punching him in some already damaged organ, or put an eye out or anything.
I fear the current cries of torture are making people forget what real torture is like, and that that is still going on to, maybe not so much in/by the US, but still.

On a slightly different note, if I were in any position to influence the policy in Gitmo, I'd let the prisoners read something else than the Quo'ran. It probably gets boring after having rad it a few hundred times already. And if they're real fundamentalists, they know it by heart already.

[bmolsson]

How a country deals with its criminals, or even enemies, is its business.

Isnt that the truth.

Even if they are American citizens in a Al Qaida cave ??

[Kagemusha]

I find it pretty intresting,that the US didnt give POW status to suspected Al Qaida fighters.That way they could keep this guys locked down how long they would like,because i dont think we are going to see peace between these parties in near future.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That's where I did basic. It was during July and August a few years ago, and I swear to God that it's the hottest place on the entire planet.

Anyway, as for the content, exactly right once again. They should take a look at the US Army's POW school.

Wow you were in the service. My compliments. I was at PI and it was no picnic there either as any of you who have seen Full Metal Jacket can testify to. Even that doesnt convey the true brutality that you can endure there. By the way after I joined FMF I worked in escape and evasion school as a Gomer. You should see the torture we put our own pilots through.

These soldiers volunteered to undergo this treatment.

I didnt volunter to be tortured but to serve my country. You dont imagine the stuff they do to you in basic or most wouldnt even go there. Besides that most peole were drafted when I was in. What do you say to those who were drafted then?

Once more all those in Gitmo are lucky to be alive. We could have shot every last one of them on the spot when we caught them. Thats what Patton would have done.

[|OCS|Virus]

I agree with everything said in the article accept this piece:

He or she is government property

That statement is not true, they are people they are just in custody now. The compairison between our soldiers training and how we treat prisoners is a weak argument, although the point is taken. Besides our training is what makes us the best armed force in the known world. When your a prisoner, you should be expecting to be treated badly I mean our american prisoners {in america} are treated worse than these guys. At least they don't have a "Buba" there that is going to break your legs then saudamise you. They got it easy, and anyone who sais otherwise had better have a really good reason for doing so.

[Goofball]

Okay, let's talk about the hardships of military training. In Canada, we do ten weeks of basic training and it's the same for everybody regardless of which branch of service or which trade the individual has chosen. Future airframe technicians, cooks, artillerymen, and musicians are all sent (at least when I did it) to scenic Cornwallis, Nova Scotia to learn how to salute, shine shoes, perform first aid, carry a rifle, and get yelled at a lot. I began my basic training in November, so I got to deal with a lovely Nova Scotia winter (alternately hail/sleet/snow on a daily basis). Our instructors used to think it was great fun to have us form up to be marched to breakfast without raingear, then make us stand at attention in the freezing rain for twenty minutes or so before they finally "remembered" we were outside.

After basic, individuals are separated out into their various trades and sent on for further training. For infantry (which I was doing), you were sent to one of three regimental battle schools for 16 weeks of fun. In my case, I was sent to lovely Wainwright, Alberta. I got the best of both worlds. Because my course started in late January and ran until May, I got to experience Wainwright in all its glory. First I got the winter wonderland version, with temperatures around -20 C, then we got late spring weather, where on some days it was 30C. Ah yes, fond memories: everything from bloody, frozen fingers trying to clear stoppages on the C6 machine gun, to actually going blind from dehydration for a short period at the end of a 5km endurance run through soft sand on a hot day carrying a full combat load.

Where am I going with this?

Silly as I am, I actually volunteered for all of that idiocy.

The Gitmo "customers" did not.

They have been given no due process, and are being held without evidence or charge.

You righties can accuse us lefties of coddling "terrorists" all you want, but until you offer any kind of proof (other than "they have brown skin, have read the Koran, and were in Afghanistan") that the Gitmo detainees are terrorists, you are only imprisoning innocent people.

[PanzerJaeger]

You righties can accuse us lefties of coddling "terrorists" all you want, but until you offer any kind of proof (other than "they have brown skin, have read the Koran, and were in Afghanistan") that the Gitmo detainees are terrorists, you are only imprisoning innocent people.

It is perfectly acceptable to hold enemy combatants during a time of war. Do you understand the PR victory AQ would get by having all those people put on trial? The theater, the endless appeals, it would be a nightmare.

[Papewaio]

Do you understand the PR victory AQ would get by having all those people put on trial?

Can you imagine the PR victory justice for all, all men are created equal regardless of race or creed would win if you actually walked the talk?

I thought the war in Afghanistan was won. I also thought the war in Iraq was done.

Another facet of justice is that it is timely and seen to be done. Picking and choosing when, who and how to apply justice is an oxymoron.

[Proletariat]

They have been given no due process, and are being held without evidence or charge.

CSI: Basra.

[Goofball]

CSI: Basra.

I'm trying to see any relevance of that comment to this thread. Wait! Got it:

None.

It is perfectly acceptable to hold enemy combatants during a time of war.

You haven't even proved that all of them are even enemy combatants, let alone terrorists. And at any rate, the war in Afghanistan has been "over" for some time now.

Do you understand the PR victory AQ would get by having all those people put on trial? The theater, the endless appeals, it would be a nightmare.

Are you honestly suggesting that people should be held without trial forever because it would be "inconvenient" if they were put on trial?

Here's a newsflash for you:

The U.S. government is already losing the public relations battle vis-à-vis Gitmo quite badly. The best way for them to win it is to put these people on trial and prove their guilt in public.

[Proletariat]

I'm trying to see any relevance of that comment to this thread. Wait! Got it:

None.

Don't try to be cute. You aren't very good at it.

Are you implying these prisoners should all be treated to Criminal Trials?

[PanzerJaeger]

You haven't even proved that all of them are even enemy combatants, let alone terrorists.

How do you expect us to prove that? Should we have a CSI:Basra trapsing around Afghanistan trying to find prove that the people we picked up shooting at us were shooting at us?

You're putting civilian expectations on a military situation. The two do not equate.

And at any rate, the war in Afghanistan has been "over" for some time now.

Hehe, i love it. Anytime we on the right say something positive about Afghanistan you talk about how the Taliban is coming back and how the country isnt under the control of the government. Now when the argument is about giving these detainees the same rights as US citizens, the war is won!

Are you honestly suggesting that people should be held without trial forever because it would be "inconvenient" if they were put on trial?

Is that what I said?

The U.S. government is already losing the public relations battle vis-à-vis Gitmo quite badly.

Really? Have you seen any recent public opinion polls about Gitmo?

The best way for them to win it is to put these people on trial and prove their guilt in public.

That is where CSI: Basra comes into play. Do you expect us to pull valuable special forces off the line to testify? Do you expect us to have fingerprint analysis on their AKs? Do you expect us to fly Afghanis in to America to give expert opinions?

The reality is that our war with islamic extremists is far from over and a continuous string of show trials would do nothing but cause more trouble for America.

Do you honestly think the leftists and the anti-americans would give a fair spin on the trials? Do you think the ACLU would give the military the benefit of the doubt?

[Steppe Merc]

Actually, that's also a very old method of indoctrinating people. Treat them like dirt, force them to endure bad conditions, and then tell them how very tough and elite they are. Only the best can do what they've done, and now they're fine enough to stay in the best army there ever was. Everyone wants to feel special.

I suppose, especially since the soldiers don't have years of training. The best soldiers were ones that were forced into harshness by their enviornment, but years of training could also sufice, though not as well. But if you only have a certaint amount of time, it makes a bit of twisted sense to make it as harsh as possible.

I didnt volunter to be tortured but to serve my country. You dont imagine the stuff they do to you in basic or most wouldnt even go there. Besides that most peole were drafted when I was in. What do you say to those who were drafted then?

That is the government's fault, they are to blame for forcing people to go into the army, and it is their fault when those people suffer and die.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That is the government's fault, they are to blame for forcing people to go into the army, and it is their fault when those people suffer and die.

So what would you have done in WW2?

[Steppe Merc]

Perhaps it was necassary, I don' know enough about how many volenteers there were. But regardless, it is the government's responsibility and fault, even if it was neccassary.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Perhaps it was necassary, I don' know enough about how many volenteers there were. But regardless, it is the government's responsibility and fault, even if it was neccassary.

Obviously there werent enough. So what do you do if attacked then? Just let the otherside win?