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Thread: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    MSNBC Link
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    CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war
    Anonymous career officer makes bold claims in book about U.S. war on terror

    By Andrea Mitchell



    A career CIA officer claims in a new book that America is losing the war on terror, in part because of the invasion of Iraq, which, he says, distracted the United States from the war against terrorism and further fueled al-Qaida’s struggle against the United States. The author, who writes as “Anonymous,” is a 22-year veteran of the CIA and still works for the intelligence agency, which allowed him to publish the book after reviewing it for classified information.

    In an interview with NBC’s Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent Andrea Mitchell, he calls the U.S. war in Iraq a dream come true for Osama bin Laden, saying, “Bin Laden saw the invasion of Iraq as a Christmas gift he never thought he’d get.” By invading a country that’s regarded as the second holiest place in Islam, he asserts, the Bush administration inadvertently validated bin Laden’s assertions that the United States intends a holy war against Muslims.

    In his book, titled "Imperial Hubris," he calls the Iraq invasion "an avaricious, premeditated, unprovoked war against a foe who posed no immediate threat,” arguing against the concept of pre-emptive war put forward by President Bush as justification for the Iraq war...[snip]


    ...My own opinion is we should err on the side of protecting Americans first. And if we make a mistake in that kind of action, I think the American people will accept that. It's — this is a matter of survival. This is not a nuisance anymore. No one wants to be bloodthirsty, but we're at a position in this war where we've cornered ourselves in many ways, to the point where only the military option is available to us. And if we don't use that, and we continue to pursue the policies we are pursuing, then it's a very dicey situation for America…that the war in Iraq was bin Laden's dream come true."

    Mitchell: "You've said that you think the war in Iraq motivated bin Laden. What do you think the impact of the war in Iraq was on bin Laden?"

    Anonymous: "Bin Laden, I think, and al-Qaida and other of America's enemies in the Islamic world certainly saw the invasion of Iraq as a, if you would, a Christmas gift they always wanted and never expected to get. It validated what they all said about American aggressiveness against Islam. It made us the occupiers of the second holiest place for Muslims in the world. In fact, now we are occupying, in the eyes of our opponents, we're occupying the two holiest places, Saudi Arabia, the Arabian Peninsula and Iraq, and the Israelis are occupying the third, in Jerusalem. The reaction of the clerical community to our invasion of the Islamic clerical community to our invasion of Iraq was uniformly negative."

    Mitchell: "So what, what is the war in Iraq to bin Laden?

    Anonymous: "It is, I think, a proof of his thesis that America is malignantly inclined toward Muslims, that it is willing to attack a Muslim country that dares to defy it, that it is willing to do most anything to defend Israel. It's certainly viewed as an action which is meant to assist the Israeli state. It is in every way predictably, if you will, a godsend for those Muslims who believe as bin Laden does."

    Mitchell: "It's a dream come true."

    Anonymous: "If you're familiar with that wonderful Christmas movie, ‘The Christmas Story,’ at the end of the day, Ralphie getting his air rifle even though his mother was worried his eye would get shot out. It's a terrific gift."




    "It is, I think, a proof of his thesis that America is malignantly inclined toward Muslims, that it is willing to attack a Muslim country that dares to defy it, that it is willing to do most anything to defend Israel.
    Only an idiot would say this or a Muslim fanatic. This guys credibility flew out the window with that statement.
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 06-23-2005 at 01:20. Reason: Cleaned up at request of poster
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  2. #2
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Ummm, I think he's trying there to answer Ms. Mitchell's question: "...what is the war in Iraq to bin Laden?", not what he, Mister Anonymous believes.

    That's one ugly (and long) copy/paste job, Gawain; shall I fix it?
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  3. #3

    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    It scares me how many otherwise clear thinking, rational people truly believe America's foreign policy is dictated by Israel. Some of the stuff I read on this board about the Jews controling America is like - and yes Im making one of those Nazi references I posted about - Hitler revisited.

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    It scares me how many otherwise clear thinking, rational people truly believe America's foreign policy is dictated by Israel. Some of the stuff I read on this board about the Jews controling America is like - and yes Im making one of those Nazi references I posted about - Hitler revisited.
    I think Kukri has answered your problem with the guy here.

    This guy is stating pretty much word for word what the majority of the anti war - and growing anti war - crowd has been stating for a long time now. And the reality remains, he and the rest of those against the war stand corrected by the evidence we see before us.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  5. #5

    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    The point I was making is that people seem to be continuing the idiotic Jewish conspiracy theories that existed prior to WW2.

    If this rather small group of people have been running the world, why have they had so much trouble and tradgedy? I wonder what this CIA agent has to say about that?

    I can understand kicking the arabs and I can understand kicking the blacks(although I dont agree with it), but ive never understood kicking the Jews. They dont cause trouble and they are never a liability on society.

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    You havent made a comment on what this CIA guy has to say, what is your response to him?
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  7. #7

    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    I am of the same opinion Gawain is. Anyone who envokes Israeli control of US policy loses all credibility.

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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    His basic statement is correct. The invasion of Iraq was a boost to Osama. Osama wasn't getting help from Saddam. Saddam was a secular tyrant. While I am in full agreement Saddam needed to go (not for WMD reasons though), I'm not too pleased with the way the immediate post war phase was executed. Poor follow up, a Whitehouse, State Dept. problem, not the military. You need to work fast to win hearts and minds while the power vacuum exists. Instead they fumbled around and ended up in reactive mode vs. proactive mode.

    While Iraq has been good for fueling Osama supporters, Osama was a critical component of Dubya's re-election. There was an awful lot of fear mongering going on about how Kerry (an actual combat vet...who wasn't AWOL during the war) would let Iraq fall to terrorists...yada, yada, yada.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    I am of the same opinion Gawain is. Anyone who envokes Israeli control of US policy loses all credibility.
    But as I already stated, Kukri answered that by pointing out it ISN'T in his opinion that, that is the case, but he believes that is what the war has helped achieve in the minds of AQ.

    ...

    So what do you think of his views now?
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    It scares me how many otherwise clear thinking, rational people truly believe America's foreign policy is dictated by Israel. Some of the stuff I read on this board about the Jews controling America is like - and yes Im making one of those Nazi references I posted about - Hitler revisited.
    Cmmon Panzer, that is the same story we discussed in the Hitler/Nazi threat. Say US = Isreal = Devil many of the Muslim fundamentals will support your fight against the US. They just hate Isreal. Then you do not need any further argument against the US. So do not take this for serious, take it for what it is - dangerous.

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    Member Member Spetulhu's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    I can understand kicking the arabs and I can understand kicking the blacks(although I dont agree with it), but ive never understood kicking the Jews. They dont cause trouble and they are never a liability on society.
    Huh? You kick a man when he's down, not because he deserves it but because it makes you feel good. Jews are different , that's reason enough to kick them.
    If you're fighting fair you've made a miscalculation.

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    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Alert! Alert! We have CIA spies in the backroom! Panic!

  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    I can understand kicking the arabs and I can understand kicking the blacks(although I dont agree with it), but ive never understood kicking the Jews. They dont cause trouble and they are never a liability on society.
    Yep - that about sums you up Panzer - an
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    It scares me how many otherwise clear thinking, rational people truly believe America's foreign policy is dictated by Israel. Some of the stuff I read on this board about the Jews controling America is like - and yes Im making one of those Nazi references I posted about - Hitler revisited.
    Well I believe this to be true, so shoot me. Maybe not 'controlled' but certainly regulated.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Well I believe this to be true, so shoot me. Maybe not 'controlled' but certainly regulated.
    I can only repeat my question from the other thread - if this was the case, how are they doing it?

  16. #16
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    I can only repeat my question from the other thread - if this was the case, how are they doing it?
    Very secretly One only has to look at some of the incidents, Israel has sunk USA ships, stole atomic secrets, bulldozered their citizens (which was taped) and they always get away with it. Now is that america's undying love, or maybe there was some pressure. Being labeled as 'antisemite' is euthanesia for the career, that is a powerfull tool. So how do they do it, by exploiting our collective feeling of guild.

  17. #17
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    But as I already stated, Kukri answered that by pointing out it ISN'T in his opinion that, that is the case, but he believes that is what the war has helped achieve in the minds of AQ.
    No he didnt. He gave his opinion on what he thought the guy meant. This though is clearly not the case. The guy said

    "It is, I think, a proof of his thesis that America is malignantly inclined toward Muslims, that it is willing to attack a Muslim country that dares to defy it, that it is willing to do most anything to defend Israel.
    "I think", that refers to him does it not? " a proof of his thesis" The he is Bin Laden is it not?

    If I were to say something proved Hitlers theseis on the Jews I would be agreeing with Hitler would I not?
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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho
    Yep - that about sums you up Panzer - an
    Please refrain from making such baits - even if you leave it to the fantasy of the adressee and other patrons to reaplce the smilie with a word, the intention of this post seems rather clear - and I would be hard-pressed to interpret it in any other way than a apersonal attack or a bait.

    If you feel that a patron's opinion on an issue is out of place, please comment on the opinion.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    "I think", that refers to him does it not? " a proof of his thesis" The he is Bin Laden is it not?

    If I were to say something proved Hitlers theseis on the Jews I would be agreeing with Hitler would I not?
    But the question he was asked is
    "So what, what is the war in Iraq to bin Laden?"
    So his answer is:
    "It is, I think, a proof [to bin Laden]of his thesis
    He is clearly not stating his opinion on the issue but his opinion on BL's reasoning

  20. #20
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    He is clearly not stating his opinion on the issue but his opinion on BL's reasoning
    Clearly his opinion is that Bin Laden is correct.
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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    I can understand kicking the arabs and I can understand kicking the blacks(although I dont agree with it), but ive never understood kicking the Jews.
    Well, I am certainly glad we have set out once and for all the acceptable forms of racism.

    I really can't think of an appropriate response to this. I'm stunned.
    "The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that Navaros is claiming that Satan gave Man meat. Awesome." Gorebag

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Indeed. I may be a bigot but at least I don't discriminate, I hate them all

  23. #23

    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    I think can mean several things. It can mean I am of the opinion of... or it can mean I guess.

    Seems obvious, when connected to the question, that he is guessing.
    Common Unreflected Drinking Only Smartens

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Clearly his opinion is that Bin Laden is correct.
    No, he does not. He only states what he believes the Iraq war is to bin Laden (that is what he is asked for).
    He neither was asked for his opinion on the Iraq war, nor did he state his opinion on the Iraq war.

    If somebody asked me
    "What do you think is the refusal of the UN to approve the Iraq war to Gawain?"

    My answer woould be:
    "It is, I think, a proof of his thesis that the UN is a worth less organisation"

    I think, considering the original question is is rather clear, that this opinion about the UN is yours and not necessarily mine

    Granted, it would be even clearer if I answered:
    "To him it is, I think, a proof of his thesis that the UN is a worth less organisation"

    But that does not change the meaning of the first version.

  25. #25
    PapaSmurf Senior Member Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    And it's pretty clear that Gawain chose to understand it another way because he does not like this guy other answers and wish to paint him in a dark light...

    Had the same guy answered the same exact answer to the same exact question, but had supported GWB and his decision to go to war, you would not have read about it from Gawain...

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    [FF] Louis St Simurgh / The Simurgh



  26. #26

    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    And it's pretty clear that Gawain chose to understand it another way because he does not like this guy other answers and wish to paint him in a dark light...
    Is that the explanation for a long cut and paste , so he can find one thing that he can misinterpret and therefore call the whole article lacking in credibility

  27. #27
    PapaSmurf Senior Member Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    I can understand kicking the arabs and I can understand kicking the blacks(although I dont agree with it), but ive never understood kicking the Jews. They dont cause trouble and they are never a liability on society.

    Although you might not be really aware of it and have tried to the best of your ability not to join the racist choir (see: "although I don't agree with it" it being the kicking), this post is still unacceptable.

    I'd not go in the semantics of understanding while not agreeing.
    But I'd be happy to hear about your underlying statement that Jews don't cause trouble and have never been a liability on society: the only way I understand it is: Jews don't cause trouble and are not a liability, but arabs and blacks are causing trouble and are a liability... Nice implicit statement...

    I am neither black nor arab, but when I read this, I sure feel I am their dear human brother.

    Let me know check if there is an ignore feature on this board, and have a nice day,

    Louis,
    [FF] Louis St Simurgh / The Simurgh



  28. #28
    PapaSmurf Senior Member Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    And it's pretty clear that Gawain chose to understand it another way because he does not like this guy other answers and wish to paint him in a dark light...
    Is that the explanation for a long cut and paste , so he can find one thing that he can misinterpret and therefore call the whole article lacking in credibility
    Hey it's all about how to blame the messenger

    It's getting old now... Old trick.

    Louis,
    [FF] Louis St Simurgh / The Simurgh



  29. #29
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
    And it's pretty clear that Gawain chose to understand it another way because he does not like this guy other answers and wish to paint him in a dark light...

    Had the same guy answered the same exact answer to the same exact question, but had supported GWB and his decision to go to war, you would not have read about it from Gawain...

    Louis,
    I believe he deserves a bit more credit then that.

    But let's look at the article, so the Iraq war has strengthened Bin Laden because of the oh so holiness of Iraq, now Baghdad may be a holy city but it aren't the americans that are killing iraqi's right now. It is the terrorist cause doing that, and it is crumbling under it's own popular weight and there isn't a damn thing uncle bin can do about it, except quiting. With every attack popular support for the mostly foreign terrorists is hurt, Bin Laden and his exploding goats playing tonight in Baghdad, nah. They are defeating their own cause because they are so very very stupid. This CIA man may be right about the way some muslims think, but what can these muslims really do? Carry on soldiers.

  30. #30

    Default Re: CIA insider says U.S. fighting wrong war

    Although you might not be really aware of it and have tried to the best of your ability not to join the racist choir (see: "although I don't agree with it" it being the kicking), this post is still unacceptable.

    I'd not go in the semantics of understanding while not agreeing.
    But I'd be happy to hear about your underlying statement that Jews don't cause trouble and have never been a liability on society: the only way I understand it is: Jews don't cause trouble and are not a liability, but arabs and blacks are causing trouble and are a liability... Nice implicit statement...

    I am neither black nor arab, but when I read this, I sure feel I am their dear human brother.

    Let me know check if there is an ignore feature on this board, and have a nice day,

    Louis,
    LoL if were going by implied statements - then ill just call you for what you are - an anti-american. Even though youve never said you hate America, many of your posts imply that in my opinion.

    I learned a long time ago that if you try to read more into someone's post than what is written, you turn out to be wrong most of the time because you insert your own bias and opinions about that person into the mix.

    I said nothing racist in my post, only that I understand why people would be racist against those groups.

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