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Thread: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

  1. #91
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    There used to be a very large christain population there.
    Nit picking again? Lets just say there used to be a majprity of Christains there and it was a christain nation. Though they didnt act very christain because they were arabs.

    Lets go back to this.

    If Arabs are so religiously blood thirsty,how come they exist
    The savage Lebanese civil war raged on from 1975 to 1982.

    By 1982, over 300,000 Lebanese Christian men, women and children had been murdered by the Lebanese Muslims and their PLO terrorist allies.

    The Lebanese Christians were able to fight back solely because they received weaponry from Israel - the same Israel that they had sought to exterminate for so many years in a futile attempt to ingratiate themselves with the Arab Muslim Nazis.

    But despite their efforts to defend themselves, by 1982, the Christians were being overwhelmed by the Muslims and the PLO terrorists.

    The whole world watched in silence as the Christians were being slaughtered.

    The United States, Europe and the United Nations did nothing.

    Although Lebanon's Maronite Christians follow the Roman Catholic Church, the Vatican was also silent as the Islamic Nazi genocide was being perpetrated in Lebanon.

    In 1982, the remainder of Lebanon's Christian minority was saved not by America, not by Europe, not by the UN and not by the Vatican, but by little Israel.

    To be continued...........
    LINK

    Now its a majority Muslim nation due to war the High birth rate among Muslims and invasion by the PLO and Syrians.
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  2. #92
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Nit picking again? Lets just say there used to be a majprity of Christains there and it was a christain nation. Though they didnt act very christain because they were arabs.
    So arabs can't be Christians?

    The Lebanese Christians were able to fight back solely because they received weaponry from Israel - the same Israel that they had sought to exterminate for so many years in a futile attempt to ingratiate themselves with the Arab Muslim Nazis.
    Um... I think we just had a discussion why overusing the term Nazi isn't good, so I won't ask.

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  3. #93
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    So arabs can't be Christians?
    Huh? I just told you the majority of Lebanise were christain arabs
    I said they didnt act very christain.

    Um... I think we just had a discussion why overusing the term Nazi isn't good, so I won't ask.
    This is a fact not an opinion. You really need some history lessons. Do I need to post the pictures and links again? Tell me who was Arafats uncle?
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  4. #94
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    But Gawain how can you only accuse the muslims of that war.I understand your wiew on Al-Qaida,but that was an civil war.Like in yugoslavia.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  5. #95
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    This is a fact not an opinion. You really need some history lessons. Do I need to post the pictures and links again? Tell me who was Arafats uncle?
    Yes, some Arabs were involved with Nazis. But correct me if I'm wrong, but that author is just using it as a way to attack countries with no ties to Nazis, correct?

    Huh? I just told you the majority of Lebanise were christain arabs
    I said they didnt act very christain.
    Well I was wondering really what acting Christian meant. That's what my comment was directed to.
    Last edited by Steppe Merc; 06-30-2005 at 00:41.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
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  6. #96
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    But Gawain how can you only accuse the muslims of that war.I understand your wiew on Al-Qaida,but that was an civil war.Like in yugoslavia.
    Yup exactly like yugoslavia. The Muslims either moved in or used their prodigious procreation to effect a majority and then attack the Christains in these regions and claim them for Islam.
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  7. #97
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Im sorry but It is common knowledge that the Serbians attacked Croats,Sloveens and muslims in Yogoslavia.Do you remember NATO airstriking muslims to stop that war ?Because i dont.
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  8. #98
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Im sorry but It is common knowledge that the Serbians attacked Croats,Sloveens and muslims in Yogoslavia.Do you remember NATO airstriking muslims to stop that war ?Because i dont.
    Im speaking of Kosovo.
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  9. #99

    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    The savage Lebanese civil war raged on from 1975 to 1982. ....
    Bloody hell Gawain , that has to be just about the biggest pile of crap I have ever seen posted anywhere about the civil war and its origins .
    Even the Phalangist supporters websites make a better effort than that.

    The United States, Europe and the United Nations did nothing. get real for gods sake , surely even you must remember the Italian deployments , French deployments , American deployments , Syrian deployments .
    So the question is , did you do an exrensive search to find a reliable site that is based on fact , or did you just put up the first one you could find that had the words "Muslim Nazis" in it ?

  10. #100

    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Huh? I just told you the majority of Lebanise were christain arabs
    Really Gawain , you may tell us that , but perhaps you should check your facts first

    Though they didnt act very christain because they were arabs
    And possibly avoid painting with such a broad brush if you could manage it

  11. #101
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Bloody hell Gawain , that has to be just about the biggest pile of crap I have ever seen posted anywhere about the civil war and its origins .
    He he you didnt like it? Did you look at whos site it is? Its Sean Hannitys

    You want a more balanced view?

    LINK

    It still doesnt change the facts.

    surely even you must remember the Italian deployments , French deployments , American deployments , Syrian deployments .
    Oh I remember the Syrian ones alright and the Israeli ones as well. Enlighten me and tell me all the US and Europe did to end that war in the beggining. Also something about a barracks being blown up in Beruit but that was in the year 1983.
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 06-30-2005 at 02:10.
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  12. #102
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Absolutely nothing useful to add
    Last edited by Redleg; 06-30-2005 at 02:40.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  13. #103
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    What are you talking about Red?
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  14. #104

    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    What are you talking about Red?
    Thats better Gawain , arn't you the good boy lately to be getting your editing ability restored Still at least you were only 17 years out this time , not centuries out like earlier in the thread

    It still doesnt change the facts.
    How so , if you post a pile of crap that bears absolutely no resemblance to fact ?

  15. #105
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Do I need to post the pictures and links again? Tell me who was Arafats uncle?
    Ah yes, the sins of the uncle.

    Perhaps we should talk about the sins of the person himself, like the two terrorists who were killing Allied soldiers during WWII and later became Israeli prime Ministers.

    You repeatedly bring up something Arafat's uncle did in order to tarnish Arafat and all Muslims. To be fair, why not mention the Jews and future Israeli PMs who were actually doing Hitler's dirty work for him by killing British soldiers while Britain was at war against Hitler. The same PMs who years later were blasting the world for not stopping the Holocaust while forgetting that they themselves were blasting the very allied soldiers (with guns) they blamed for not doing enough at the time.

    Kind of weak to kill someone and then blame him for not doing something afterwards.
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  16. #106
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut
    Thanks for the quote. I like reading quotes from Ben-Gurion.

    Here's another;

    In 1938, Ben Gurion made it clear of his support for the establishment of a Jewish state on parts of Palestine ONLY as an intermediary stage, he wrote:

    "[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state--we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel."
    Well , shame on him , now , you don't want me to quote from the "palestinian" National Covenant , don't ye ?
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

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  17. #107
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    There used to be a very large christain population there.
    There still is a very large Christian population there .
    As you know , north africa (including Egypt) , Syria and Asia minor were Christian lands , well , that is a muslim tolerance
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

  18. #108
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut
    Ah yes, the sins of the uncle.

    Perhaps we should talk about the sins of the person himself, like the two terrorists who were killing Allied soldiers during WWII and later became Israeli prime Ministers.

    You repeatedly bring up something Arafat's uncle did in order to tarnish Arafat and all Muslims. To be fair, why not mention the Jews and future Israeli PMs who were actually doing Hitler's dirty work for him by killing British soldiers while Britain was at war against Hitler. The same PMs who years later were blasting the world for not stopping the Holocaust while forgetting that they themselves were blasting the very allied soldiers (with guns) they blamed for not doing enough at the time.

    Kind of weak to kill someone and then blame him for not doing something afterwards.
    Unbelievable , the Jews were helping the nazis , there is nothing to say...
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

  19. #109

    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Unbelievable , the Jews were helping the nazis , there is nothing to say...
    Come on Ceasar , surely you must have something to say ....?
    There must be some way you can defend the proposals , put forward in writing , to the Nazis by people (one of whom would go on to become prime minister) who wanted an alliance with Hitler against the British . And offered a Hebrew totalitarian state as a means of extending and consolidating the Third Reichs influence in the Middle-East .
    Or don't they teach you that part of your History ?

  20. #110
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Certaintly some Jews collaborated with Nazis. Certaintly not most or very many, but there will always be some collaborators, no matter the circumstance.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
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  21. #111
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Certaintly some Jews collaborated with Nazis.
    Name me a few or show me some Jewish outfit in the German army wearing SS insignias.

    Ah yes, the sins of the uncle.

    Perhaps we should talk about the sins of the person himself
    If you want to talk of the Sins of Arafat theres not room on these boards for them all. You act as if he didnt admire his uncle and hold the same beliefs.
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  22. #112
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Weren't some of the guards of the concentration camps Jewish? Not the SS, but the work bosses?

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
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  23. #113

    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Name me a few
    A squad of Vilna Jewish policemen, some 30 strong, was issued new uniforms and dispatched to Oszmiana in October 1942, where Jews from Smorgonie, Soly, and other small ghettos in the Vilna area were assembled. They were told that their task was "to deliver certificates" to the inmates of those ghettos. They took over from the Lithuanians the task of guarding the ghetto gate. On October 23, 1942, the Jews were driven to the assembly place by the police from the Vilna Ghetto accompanied by local policemen. They "selected" 200 sick and 392 elderly people; 410 were sent off to Zielkonka, some 7 or 8 kilometers from Oszmiana, in previously prepared carts. They were put to death in the presence of several Vilna Jewish policemen. According to Dvorzhetsky, the Jewish policemen took part in the actual execution.

    An eyewitness from the Debica Ghetto relates that during the final "action" (on November 15, 1942) the ... Jewish camp Elder ordered the ghetto police to deliver some 50 "illegal" Jews, those who had escaped and somehow made it back to the camp later on. These were detained in a room of the local Talmud Torah and killed the same night, with the help of the ghetto police ("the men of the Ordnungsdienst grabbed the hands of the victims and Gabler [apparently the Lagerkommandant] shot them"). (Trunk, 1972, p. 514)


    That is taken from a site where a group of holocaust survivors and relatives are pushing the Canadian governmnet to put on trial for war crimes the Jewish police (living in Canada)who collaborated with the German Army and wore German Uniforms Gawain .

  24. #114
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Weren't some of the guards of the concentration camps Jewish? Not the SS, but the work bosses?
    Probably but heres something much more disturbing.

    McLellan-Letter 7: Feb 20/98 (Jewish war crimes)

    John Sack, whose book An Eye For An Eye is relied on extensively below in the section on Jewish Crimes Following WW II has a web site at http://www.johnsack.com/ which can be consulted for additional information on this subject.
    Part 2
    Jewish War Crimes
    and Crimes Against Humanity
    Under German Occupation

    Much is made — in the media, and perhaps also within your Department of Justice - of the fact that numbers of Ukrainians collaborated with the occupying Germans. However, the Jews also had their kapos (Jewish Nazi police), their Judenrat (Council of Elders administering Nazi policies), their Jewish collaborators and informers. The media make much of Ukrainian auxiliary police helping the Germans, but seem to be unaware that under threat of immediate death, collaboration was forthcoming from more than one direction:

    The Jüdische Ordnungsdienst, as the Jewish police in the ghettos were called, furnished thousands of men for seizure operations. In the Warsaw ghetto alone the Jewish police numbered approximately 2500; in Lodz they were about 1200 men strong; the Lvov ghetto had an Ordnungsdienst of 500 men; and so on.
    (Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, Quadrangle Books, Chicago, 1961, p. 310)

    Given such large numbers of Jewish police as those mentioned above - we are talking about thousands - then for every story of Ukrainian police auxiliary coming to arrest a Jew on behalf of the Nazis, would it be hard to find a story of Jewish police auxiliary coming to do exactly the same? In the game of saving one's life by serving a ruthless master with the requisite enthusiasm, were there not a few Jews who also excelled? And has your Department of Justice placed the list of Ukrainian collaborators side by side with the list of Jewish collaborators, and impartially determined that the Ukrainian list is the longer of the two, or the more reprehensible - or, rather, does your Department of Justice not even have a Jewish list?

    But to point out that Jews also provided manpower for Nazi police actions may be to understate the case. In fact, it is possible to entertain the notion that wherever feasible, anti-Jewish police actions fell within the exclusive jurisdiction of the Jewish kapos:

    The Satanic plan of the Nazis assured that the personal fate of each Jew - whether for life or death - be exclusively left up to the decisions of the "councils of elders" [Judenrat]. The Nazis, from time to time, decided upon a general quota for the work of the camps and for extermination, but the individual selection was left up to the "council of elders", with the enforcement of kidnappings and arrests also placed in the hands of the Jewish police (kapos). By this shrewd method, the Nazis were highly successful in accomplishing mass murder and poisoning the atmosphere of the ghetto through moral degeneration and corruption.
    (Reb Moshe Shonfeld, The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, Neturei Karta of U.S.A., Brooklyn, 1977, pp. 119-120, emphasis added)

    In his moving letter to the editor below, Israel Shahak underlines that almost all the administrative tasks and policing required by the Nazis was placed in Jewish hands, that Jewish collaborators were ubiquitous, and that it was Jewish collaborators who rendered the Jewish Holocaust feasible and who stood as obstacles in the path of Jewish resistance. Note, particularly, that the children of the Warsaw ghetto were taught to fear the Jewish collaborator more than the Ukrainian collaborator:

    Falsification of the Holocaust

    Letter to the editor by Prof. Israel Shahak,
    published on 19 May 1989 in Kol Ha'ir, Jerusalem. Available online at:
    http://www.kaiwan.com/codoh/newsdesk/890519.HTML

    I disagree with the opinion of Haim Baram that the Israeli education system has managed to instil a "Holocaust awareness" in its pupils (Kol Ha'Ir 12.5.89). It's not an awareness of the Holocaust but rather the myth of the Holocaust or even a falsification of the Holocaust (in the sense that "a half-truth is worse than a lie") which has been instilled here.
    As one who himself lived through the Holocaust, first in Warsaw then in Bergen-Belsen, I will give an immediate example of the total ignorance of daily life during the Holocaust. In the Warsaw ghetto, even during the period of the first massive extermination (June to October 1943), one saw almost no German soldiers. Nearly all the work of administration, and later the work of transporting hundreds of thousands of Jews to their deaths, was carried out by Jewish collaborators. Before the outbreak of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (the planning of which only started after the extermination of the majority of Jews in Warsaw), the Jewish underground killed, with perfect justification, every Jewish collaborator they could find. If they had not done so the Uprising could never have started. The majority of the population of the Ghetto hated the collaborators far more than the German Nazis. Every Jewish child was taught, and this saved the lives of some of them "if you enter a square from which there are three exits, one guarded by a German SS man, one by an Ukrainian and one by a Jewish policeman, then you should first try to pass the German, and then maybe the Ukrainian, but never the Jew".
    One of my own strongest memories is that, when the Jewish underground killed a despicable collaborator close to my home at the end of February 1943, I danced and sang around the still bleeding corpse together with the other children. I still do not regret this, quite the contrary.
    It is clear that such events were not exclusive to the Jews, the entire Nazi success in easy and continued rule over millions of people stemmed from the subtle and diabolical use of collaborators, who did most of the dirty work for them. But does anybody now know about this? This, and not what is "instilled" was the reality. Of the Yad Vashem (official state Holocaust museum in Jerusalem — Ed.) theatre, I do not wish to speak at all. It, and its vile exploiting, such as honouring South Africa collaborators with the Nazis are truly beneath contempt.
    Therefore, if we knew a little of the truth about the Holocaust, we would at least understand (with or without agreeing) why the Palestinians are now eliminating their collaborators. That is the only means they have if they wish to continue to struggle against our limb-breaking regime.

    Kind regards,

    [Israel Shahak]

    Here is the story of one such Jewish collaborator:
    Moldetsky, a leader of the Zionist Workers Party (Poalei Zion), who was appointed head of the council of elders in Bedzin, and who, over the course of years, chose thousands of Jews for forced labor and extermination, succeeded in remaining alive. For the mass deportations, Moldetsky published a decree which was completely fraudulent and deceiving, in which he said: "Jews, dress up in your holiday clothes and march joyfully to the gathering places mentioned above. No one is to remain at home. ..." The Jews, in their innocence, obeyed him. The result was that people with large families - as well as the elderly - a total of 8,000, were sent to Auschwitz. The babies were pushed into sacks by the Nazis.
    ...
    After the war, Moldetsky - by merit of Zionist activities - was understandably one of the first to receive an immigration certificate to Palestine. His collaboration in the murder of tens of thousands of Jews did not make him unfit in the eyes of the officials of the Jewish Agency, who were distributing the certificates. He went to Eretz Yisroel where, it has been reported, the revengeful hand of the Jews of Bedzin killed him while he was taking a trip in the mountains.
    (Reb Moshe Shonfeld, The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, Neturei Karta of U.S.A., Brooklyn, 1977, pp. 122-123)

    The media make much of Ukrainians welcoming the invading Germans. For example, on October 24, 1993, Morley Safer stated on the 60 Minutes story The Ugly Face of Freedom that "The same square [in Lviv, Ukraine] greeted Hitler's troops fifty years ago as liberators," making this seem like a symptom of a Ukrainian sympathy for Naziism. What Mr. Safer did not specify is who were the people in that square who were welcoming Hitler's troops, and the truth was that all people - Ukrainians, Poles, and Jews - welcomed Hitler's troops. Jews welcomed Hitler's troops? Yes, so it would appear:

    The prevailing conviction [was] that bad things came from Russia and good things from Germany. The Jews were historically oriented away from Russia and toward Germany; not Russia but Germany had been their traditional place of refuge. During October and November, 1939, that conviction, among other things, drove thousands of Jews from Russian-occupied Poland to German-occupied Poland. The stream was not stopped until the Germans closed the border. Similarly, one year later, at the time of Soviet mass deportations in the newly occupied territories, [there was] widespread unrest among Ukrainians, Poles, and Jews alike. Almost everyone was waiting for the arrival of the German army. When the army finally arrived, in the summer of 1941, old Jews in particular remembered that in the First World War the Germans had come as quasi-liberators. These Jews did not expect that now the Germans would come as persecutors and killers.
    (Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, Quadrangle Books, Chicago, 1961, p. 206)

    Upon experiencing the impulse to blame Ukrainians for welcoming the Germans, the impartial observer might recognize that all groups had been traumatized by their exposure to Communism, that in Western Ukraine in the first days of the war none knew whether the Germans were bringing good or ill, and that all hoped that the change of administrations would bring relief.

    The media make much of Ukrainian cruelty on behalf of the Nazis, sometimes passing along the facile comment that Ukrainians were in some sense "worse than the Nazis." For example, Morley Safer, addressing himself to Simon Wiesenthal on the same 60 Minutes story disclosed that "I get the impression from people that the actions of the Ukrainians, if anything, were worse than the Germans." What Mr. Safer seemed to be unaware of is that an impartial review of history reveals a similar cruelty among Jews, and warrants a similar condemnation:

    Question survivors of the ghettoes and camps. They all certify that the beatings they received at the hands of the Jewish "golden youth" were filled with scorn. They fulfilled their tasks with a zeal and cruelty to a greater extent than that required by the German commanders.
    (Y. Efroiken, Sanctity and Valor of the Jews, in Reb Moshe Shonfeld, The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, Neturei Karta of U.S.A., Brooklyn, 1977, p. 21)
    He [K. Tzetnik] depicts the figure of Eliezer Greenbaum, son of Yitzchak Greenbaum, who, thanks to his tactics of acting as informant and displaying cruelty - to an extent which amazed even the Germans - was elevated to the rank of the bloc commander.
    (Reb Moshe Shonfeld, The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, Neturei Karta of U.S.A., Brooklyn, 1977, p. 21)
    Practically all of the kapo officers were academicians - persons with degrees - who behaved like wild beasts and at times were more cruel than the Nazis.
    (Reb Moshe Shonfeld, The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, Neturei Karta of U.S.A., Brooklyn, 1977, p. 121)

    Is it in the interests of Canadian justice to prosecute the Ukrainian collaborators while at the same time granting immunity to the Jewish collaborators? Are the Jewish collaborators to be forgiven because they served their German masters under duress? If so, then why should Ukrainians not be accorded the same understanding? — They served under a comparable duress. The Ukrainian populace was treated by the Germans with the utmost severity and cruelty. More importantly, the bulk of the Ukrainian camp guards were conscripted from Soviet prisoners of war who had no motivation to remain loyal to the Soviets by whom they had been brutalized, who knew nothing of any future Holocaust, and whose only option was to remain in the German POW camps and perish. If collaboration with the Germans is exculpated by the defense of escape from a holocaust, then these Ukrainian POWs must receive full exculpation, as they were being exterminated in the German POW camps by the millions:

    Confident of victory and anxious to eliminate "surplus" Slavs, Nazi authorities herded the prisoners into open-air camps encircled by barbed wire and allowed them to die of exposure, disease, and hunger. Often they simply executed their captives. Consequently, by the end of the war, of the 5.8 million Soviet prisoners who had fallen into German hands, about 3.3 million had perished. About 1.3 million of these fatalities occurred in Ukraine.
    I must say Im shocked. Is there nothing some people wont do to get ahead?
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  25. #115
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Unbelievable , the Jews were helping the nazis , there is nothing to say...
    Come on Ceasar , surely you must have something to say ....?
    There must be some way you can defend the proposals , put forward in writing , to the Nazis by people (one of whom would go on to become prime minister) who wanted an alliance with Hitler against the British . And offered a Hebrew totalitarian state as a means of extending and consolidating the Third Reichs influence in the Middle-East .
    Or don't they teach you that part of your History ?
    What is to defend here ? the Nazis killed 6,000,000 Jews... what is the point here ? ars you suggesting that the Jews as a people , were helping the Nazis to kill Jews ? what are we talking about here men ? this is beyond my understanding , what is it with all these strange arguments ? why are you making the victim as the murder ? do you know that about 150,000 people with 10 to 30% "Jew blood" were serving in the Vermacht ? I really don't get you here , so now we are arguing about the holocaust ?
    to use Shamir's views of the Nazis in 1933 , against the Jews is a nasty thing to do

    So , here are some of your brothers doings in 1930' and 40' -


    The decapitation of IRA leader Seán Russell’s statue in Dublin’s Fairview Park earlier this year has reopened an embarrassing chapter in that organisation’s history. Was Russell a Nazi collaborator or simply an exponent of the old Fenian adage that ‘England’s difficulty is Ireland’s opportunity’? Brian Hanley assesses the evidence.



    Seán Russell, the IRA chief of staff, spent the summer of 1940 in a ‘very large’ villa in the leafy Grunewald, near Berlin, surrounded by extensive grounds and parks, enjoying all the privileges of a diplomat with regard to access to food, petrol and other rationed goods. His villa contained radio gramophone facilities and an ‘excellent library’ equipped with ‘special war maps’ that enabled Russell to keep abreast of Germany’s stunning military victories that summer. As a registered representative of the Irish Republic he was accorded ‘every privilege possible’, including the use of a car and chauffeur for trips around Berlin and the German countryside and the services of a young Austrian aristocrat, who was appointed as his companion and interpreter. He was given access to the high-security Brandenburg military camp to study the latest techniques in sabotage and guerilla warfare, and met leading Nazis such as Foreign Minister Joachim Von Ribbentrop. Following the fall of France, Russell urged that the German high command make use of the IRA to strike at British forces in Northern Ireland as part of a general attack on Britain. His plans were accepted and incorporated into Operation Sealion (the plan for the invasion of Britain), a mark of the ‘respect and esteem’ in which Russell was held by the German military leadership. During August Russell was to return to Ireland to oversee the implementation of these plans, but on his journey home by U-boat he became ill and died. His body was buried at sea with full German naval honours.

    The above information comes not from one of Russell’s many critics, eager to paint him as a collaborator with the Nazis, but from the republican newspaper The United Irishman of October 1951. The article was published to coincide with the unveiling of a monument to Russell in Dublin’s Fairview Park and concluded that he was a ‘worthy successor to Tone and Casement’. Quite apart from that questionable assessment, what is notable about the article is the utter lack of embarrassment that the leader of the IRA was a guest of the Nazis during a period in which the German armies invaded and forcibly occupied five sovereign nations. Yet many still dispute claims that Russell collaborated with the Nazis, painting him as a simple military man unconcerned with political matters. That this should excuse him of collaboration is of course debatable. Others have suggested that both he and the IRA could have had no knowledge of the realities of Nazi policy and were simply following the tradition of ‘England’s difficulty being Ireland’s opportunity.’ The presence of former International Brigade officer Frank Ryan on board the U-boat with Russell is seen as further evidence of lack of Nazi sympathy. The question of collaboration is more complex and wider than both sides of the argument have allowed, though, I would argue, no less damning for Russell in the end.

    Early contacts with Nazi Germany
    Russell’s contacts with Nazi Germany dated from as early as October 1936, when he wrote to the German ambassador to the United States, apologising on behalf of the Irish people for the refusal of the de Valera administration to grant landing rights to the German air service. In that letter he signalled that he would be willing to cooperate with the Germans in any future military conflicts they found themselves in. It was in the US that initial IRA–Nazi contacts were established, with the Clan na Gael leader Joe McGarrity a key figure in building these links. During 1938 the left-wing Irish Democrat noted that the Nazis were making efforts to win allies among Irish republicans in New York. Russell and McGarrity cooperated in launching a coup within the IRA during that year, overthrowing its established leadership and committing the organisation to a bombing campaign in Britain. Tom Barry, one of the ousted leadership, claimed that money from the German-American Bund, the main Nazi organisation in the US, had been promised to fund the bombing campaign. In January 1939 that bombing campaign began but, despite leading to seven civilian deaths and the execution of two IRA men, never caused the political crisis the IRA hoped for. The international situation leading up to the outbreak of the Second World War preoccupied British opinion. During the months after the outbreak of war the IRA publicly declared that it was supporting neither ‘king’ nor ‘dictator’.

    However, in July 1940 the IRA leadership issued a statement outlining its position on the war. The statement made clear that if ‘German forces should land in Ireland, they will land . . . as friends and liberators of the Irish people’. The public was assured that Germany desired neither ‘territory nor . . . economic penetration’ in Ireland but only that it should play its part in the ‘reconstruction’ of a ‘free and progressive Europe’. The Third Reich was also praised as the ‘energising force’ of European politics and the ‘guardian’ of national freedom. In response to critics such as George Bernard Shaw, who had drawn attention to Hitler’s anti-Catholic policies, the IRA countered that both ‘Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini’ proved their lack of bias by helping to establish the ‘Catholic government’ of Franco in Spain. In August the IRA confidently predicted that with the assistance of ‘our victorious European allies’ Ireland would ‘achieve absolute independence within the next few months’.

    The IRA’s statements drew angry responses from Irish Freedom, published by the Connolly Association, and Irish Workers Weekly, published by the Communist Party of Ireland, who criticised the IRA for inviting ‘German soldiers to come and devastate the country they talk of freeing’. These papers also noted how the IRA and their ‘strange bedfellow General O’Duffy’ were lauding as ‘liberators’ powers that held ‘Abyssinia, Austria, Albania and Czechoslovakia’ in subjection. The reference to the former Blueshirt leader was apt. During 1940 IRA officers approached O’Duffy and asked him to become an intelligence operative for the organisation. Irish Freedom noted with disgust how the Nazis seemed to have been able to ‘corrupt’ some of the leading Irish republicans.

    Anti-Semitic propaganda
    That this was the case became more apparent over the next year. War News, the IRA’s main publication, became increasingly pro-Nazi in tone, even claiming active IRA involvement in the German bombing of British cities. But more chillingly it began to ape anti-Semitic arguments. Satisfaction was expressed that the ‘cleansing fire’ of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe. British war minister Hore Belisha was described as a ‘wealthy Jew’ only interested in ‘profits’. War News condemned the arrival in Ireland of ‘so-called Jewish refugees’, along with unspecified numbers of ‘Albanian, Abyssinian, Mongolian [and] Tartars’. These new arrivals were not only supposedly putting Irish people out of work but also exploiting those that they employed. Belfast was said to be increasingly in the ‘hands of international Jewry’ because of this influx. ‘The Jews’, War News warned, were ‘like the English, when they are strong they bully and rule.’ In Dublin de Valera’s government was also dominated by ‘Jews and Freemasons’ who were becoming the ‘new owners of Ireland’. Fianna Fáil TD Robert Briscoe was singled out for attack.

    Given the tiny numbers of Jewish refugees actually allowed access to Ireland this logic was perverse, but it reflected a strand of thought previously expressed within the republican movement on numerous occasions by the Sinn Féin leader J.J. O’Kelly (Scelig). Throughout the 1930s Sinn Féin publications written by O’Kelly had repeatedly attacked alleged Jewish influence in Ireland. By 1940 he was praising Hitler for freeing Germany from the ‘heel’ of the ‘Jewish white slave traffic’. Indeed, by 1940 republicans and former Blueshirts were mingling in a variety of small pro-German organisations in Dublin. What is clear is that at least a section of the IRA leadership was attracted by Nazism’s successes.

    Anti-Nazism within the IRA
    Was this simply a more extreme form of the widespread ‘sneaking regard’ in Ireland for German military victories over the British during 1940? After all, much of nationalist Ireland refused to believe that any form of oppression was worse than that inflicted by the British. What differentiated the IRA from other sections of nationalist opinion, however, is that the organisation had an anti-Nazi history. In 1933 the IRA’s newspaper An Phoblacht had condemned ‘Hitlerism’ as a ‘disease’. After the Nazis came to power the paper attacked those ‘rather foolish people’ in Ireland who praised Hitler. It criticised anti-Semitism and drew attention to the similarity between the Blueshirts in Ireland and fascists elsewhere in Europe.

    An Phoblacht reviewed the Brown Book of the Hitler Terror and explained how under Nazism ‘Jews are murdered or hounded’ and ‘bloody coercion’ imposed on the German people. That the Nazis had banned rival political parties, murdered socialists and jailed thousands of their opponents was taken as evidence that the ‘Fascist state is a collection of human chattels at the disposal of tyrants’. Reports from the underground German Social Democratic Party were also published in the paper. Therefore any IRA member who cared to read his own organisation’s newspaper during those years would have been aware of the nature of Nazi Germany. Part of the key to understanding the pro-Nazi drift of the IRA in 1940 is the nature of the political struggles within the organisation during the previous decade.

    In 1933 the IRA had perhaps 12,000 members and was, in the Free State at least, a relatively open and public organisation. Yet it was divided on many levels. The dominant leadership grouping around Moss Twomey and Seán MacBride were sympathetic to social radicalism but primarily concerned with developing the IRA as a military force. An important section of the leadership was socialist, notably Peadar O’Donnell and George Gilmore. Another section—of which Russell, as the IRA’s quartermaster general, was probably the best example—were committed entirely to armed force and uninterested in political debate. A smaller group were attracted to Sinn Féin’s espousal of right-wing ‘Christian social’ policies. Divisions existed over the relationship between the IRA in Northern Ireland and its much larger and more influential southern counterpart, and over questions about religion and communism.

    But most importantly the IRA failed to comprehend the degree to which the Fianna Fáil government was winning republican support for its constitutional politics. Violent conflict with the Blueshirts allowed the government to arrest and jail IRA members, and this violence also alienated passive support. The IRA leadership forbade its volunteers to engage in such street confrontations but was widely ignored, contributing to an image of an undisciplined, uncontrollable organisation. Differences about how to react to Fianna Fáil in government contributed to the departure of many of the most prominent socialists in 1934 to form the Republican Congress. Further violence, including murders, led to more government repression, with the eventual banning of the IRA in 1936. After Twomey was jailed that year the leadership passed to Seán MacBride, Tom Barry and Mick Fitzpatrick in quick succession. Membership fell to around 2,000.

    It was in this situation that the idea for a campaign in Britain, suggested by the American Clan na Gael and taken up by Russell, appealed to young, militant IRA officers with no prior experience of military conflict. Much of the northern IRA was attracted to the idea as well, feeling marginalised and ignored by their southern comrades. Russell and McGarrity won a bitter internal power struggle, partially through sabotaging a plan for a northern campaign and convincing their young supporters that a bombing campaign in Britain would be tolerated by the Irish government. To these men cooperation with the Germans made perfect military sense.

    The marginalisation and decline of the IRA and the loss of many of its more experienced leaders contributed to the German alliance. Contacts between the IRA and German nationalists in Dublin had existed since the early 1930s. In 1938 the Republican Congress warned how these nationalists, now working for German intelligence, were wooing the IRA. During that year Russell would claim to have ‘no more’ interest in Germany ruling Ireland than in Britain doing so, while still being happy to solicit their military aid. One jailed IRA leader expressed the view that he was ‘not greatly interested in the different interests’ fighting the war, ‘except in so far’ as to see ‘England beaten’. This view was echoed by the women of Cumann na mBan, who saw the Germans as ‘fighting Ireland’s battle and the battle of all oppressed nations within the empire’ but were not eager for them to come to Ireland. While naïve in the extreme, these views were at least in line with the republican belief that ‘England’s difficulty was Ireland’s opportunity’. A key factor in the more openly Nazi line was the military success of the Germans during 1940, which made it seem likely that the defeat of Britain was imminent.

    Anti-Communism within the IRA
    But there was more involved than apolitical militarism and opportunism. The 1930s IRA had seen bitter arguments about its social policies, especially those believed to be ‘communistic’. Criticism of the organisation by the Catholic Church had also had a major impact on the IRA, and its leadership struggled to find ways of expressing social radicalism that did not conflict with church doctrine. By the mid-1930s ideas about social credit and distributism, which included strong anti-Semitic elements, were current within the organisation, and Sinn Féin’s ‘Christian social’ policies also gained new supporters. Sympathy was expressed with demagogic figures such as Fr Charles Coughlin and Huey Long in the US.

    That some IRA volunteers fought fascism in Spain is used to absolve the organisation of charges of collaboration. But the IRA actually forbade its members to go to Spain, and those volunteers who did go went in defiance of their leaders. Similarly, the commander of the Irish anti-Fascists in Spain, Frank Ryan, had severed his connection with the IRA in 1934 and joined the Republican Congress. There were pro-Franco as well as pro-Spanish republican elements within the IRA. A number of younger officers became more open to right-wing politics. Supporters of the old IRA leadership in 1938 had accused some of Russell’s supporters, such as Peadar O’Flaherty, of ‘fascist’ leanings. The strategist of the bombing campaign, James O’Donovan, was also seen by some as influenced by fascist thinking. It was in this context that IRA officers could approach Eoin O’Duffy, who as a Free State general, Garda Commissioner and Blueshirt leader had been a sworn enemy of their organisation, and offer him a place in its leadership. Clearly a section of the leadership at least was also happy to revel in Nazi successes.

    It is important to note that the IRA in 1940 was under severe pressure and in decline. Hundreds of its members were jailed or interned in the Curragh camp. Undoubtedly a measure of desperation contributed to its thinking. Similarly, the views expressed in War News need to be put into context. Much of what was written in the journal was fantasy, especially the claims that the IRA was playing a major role in the German war effort. But the IRA clearly wanted to be seen to be doing so, and there may have been an element of hoping to impress the Nazis as well as the Irish public. Furthermore, War News was illegal and therefore written and distributed surreptitiously. A small number of people were responsible for its content and only a few IRA members could have had any input into it. Despite the violence of some of the anti-Jewish rhetoric in War News the IRA did not attempt to physically attack Irish Jews.

    But the reality was that, whether ideologically pro-Nazi or not, the IRA was committed to aiding the German war effort. By late 1940 that meant supporting a German invasion of Ireland. The IRA’s opponents in Irish military intelligence were prepared to concede that the IRA ‘would give every assistance’ to the defence forces in the event of a British invasion but would assist the Germans if they landed. Across Europe a variety of ethnic and political groups collaborated with the Nazis in order to further their own agendas. Inevitably this meant active involvement in Nazi persecution of Jews and political opponents. It also meant becoming a part of the Nazi governmental machine. Does anyone seriously believe that the IRA would have avoided playing this role?

    Furthermore, the argument that Russell and the IRA could have had no idea of the nature of Nazi policies is spurious. That Nazi Germany was a one-party dictatorship was not a secret. The banning of political organisations and the jailing and murder of opponents by the Nazis during 1933 and 1934 was widely reported in Ireland, not least in the IRA’s own press. The November 1935 Nuremberg Laws, which stripped German Jews of citizenship rights and forbade physical relations between Jew and ‘Aryan’, were not a closely guarded secret. The support given to Franco by Germany and the destruction of Basque Guernica by Nazi bombers in May 1937 was actually condemned by An Phoblacht. The Kristallnacht pogrom of November 1938 that saw the murder of 100 people, the destruction of thousands of homes, businesses and synagogues and the jailing of 26,000 Jews was international news. By 1940 the Nazis had invaded and occupied a large part of Europe. That these occupied countries did not desire foreign occupation should have given pause for thought to a movement claiming to seek national self-determination.

    IRA role in German-occupied Ireland?
    Seán Russell may have been uninterested in political debate but he was hardly unaware of these matters. That he was happy to take up residence in Berlin as a guest of the Nazis, meet their high command and propose plans for military action in support of a German invasion was collaboration, whatever his private motivation. Is there not something perverse about an Irish republican enjoying special privileges in the capital of a state that was embarked on a mission to conquer all of Europe?

    Given the experience of other occupied countries in Europe, the IRA would have found itself rewarded for its assistance by a role in the administration of occupied Ireland. IRA intelligence would have been used to arrest left-wing and other political opponents of the Nazis. The anti-Semitic authors of War News would have been put to work on helping to round up Ireland’s Jews. Old scores would have been settled by newly empowered local IRA officers. Those IRA members who had no time for Nazi ideology but wished to see a German victory would have had to face the logic of that position. A German victory meant the Nazi occupation of Ireland. Here we face the question posed by Joe Lee as to how the Black and Tans would have retrospectively looked after our occupation by the SS. Even in purely numerical terms, the Germans killed more Irish civilians in the bombing of Belfast than had died at the hands of the British during the War of Independence.

    No doubt a section of the IRA would have realised their mistake and resisted. Certainly among the internees in the Curragh there were those who came to the conclusion that German imperialism represented a graver threat to Irish freedom than British. Other sections of Irish society would have collaborated too, of course, and the European experience suggests that many of the great and the good would have found reason to do so. But, unlike these hypothetical collaborators, the IRA actually wanted a German invasion and was in a position for a period to physically assist one. That is the central problem that many still refuse to face up to.

    Brian Hanley lectures in Irish history at NUI Maynooth.

    Further reading:
    S. Cronin, Frank Ryan: the search for the Republic (Dublin, 1980).
    C. Foley, Legion of the rearguard: the IRA and the modern Irish state (London, 1992).
    B. Hanley, The IRA, 1926–1936 (Dublin, 2002).
    J.J. Lee, Modern Ireland, politics and society, 1912–1985 (Cambridge, 1989).

    Don't forget , self-righteousness is twisting your mind....
    Last edited by caesar44; 06-30-2005 at 20:58.
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

  26. #116
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Yes, there were some jewish guards "working" for the Nazis, but all they gained by doing that was that the jewish people were pushed around by their own men and not by SS-people who would probably have been more brutal. And those jewish guards had a chance to survive longer. From what I know these people were forced by the Nazis to do what the Nazis wanted in order to survive. In the end, they would probably have been killed as well, because there was no way for a jew stay alive, the Nazis wanted them all. It´s sad, but that´s the way it was, if these people hadn´t "collaborated", there would probably have been more dead jews.

    What would you do if you were living in a ghetto/KZ with people starving everywhere around you and a Nazi comes and says that if you take that stick and be some kind of policeman, you won´t be killed directly and get something to eat. Well, you can disagree, but that will only result in the same dead people+you.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  27. #117
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by caesar44
    Unbelievable , the Jews were helping the nazis , there is nothing to say...
    Indirectly, they were. Obviously it sounds outlandish, but you tell me then, why, when the Nazis were killing so many Jews and British soldiers were killing Nazis, were Jews killing British soldiers? Seems a bit retarded don't you think?

    And why, years later, were the same Jews who were killing British soldiers elected as Prime Ministers of Israel? And where did those Prime Ministers get the gall to berate the rest of the world about the Holocaust while they themselves were killing the very soldiers who were fighting the perpetrators of the Holocaust?
    Unto each good man a good dog

  28. #118

    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    *Jumps in*

    There was no Jewish SS unit - Muslim unit(s) did exist and fought well actually.

    *Jumps out*

  29. #119
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut
    Indirectly, they were. Obviously it sounds outlandish, but you tell me then, why, when the Nazis were killing so many Jews and British soldiers were killing Nazis, were Jews killing British soldiers? Seems a bit retarded don't you think?

    And why, years later, were the same Jews who were killing British soldiers elected as Prime Ministers of Israel? And where did those Prime Ministers get the gall to berate the rest of the world about the Holocaust while they themselves were killing the very soldiers who were fighting the perpetrators of the Holocaust?

    1. "Jews were killing British soldiers" - what the hell the British were doing in "palestine" ? they were foreign conquerors , and I was thinking you are against imperialism , ha ?
    2. "elected as PM's..." aha , as you know , in pro election debates , in Israel , the candidates named the British soldiers they killed in 1944 and the one who killed the most is elected
    3. "killing" , not fighting ?
    4. "fighting the perpetrators of the Holocaust" - again , you forgetting , not a single bombing on the camps , not one ! why ?
    5. Another quotation for you from Ben gurion - "We should fight the Nazis as there is no British rule , and we should fight the British rule as there is no Nazis"

    Btw - remember the "Exodos" ? the "white book" ? the "black Sabbath" ? the persecutions of the "ETSEL" and "LEHI" ?

    As I told you , the truth....the truth...
    Last edited by caesar44; 06-30-2005 at 23:46.
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

  30. #120
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by caesar44
    1. "Jews were killing British soldiers" - what the hell the British were doing in "palestine" ? they were foreign conquerors ,
    Same as the Zionists.

    Quote Originally Posted by caesar44
    4. "fighting the perpetrators of the Holocaust" - again , you forgetting , not a single bombing on the camps , not one ! why ?
    I agree. I do not know why they did not bomb the camps or the railroads. On the other hand, my father fought the Germans in Italy with the Canadian Army and he did what he had to do and just because there was no bombing of the camps, that does not take away from his effort to defeat the Nazis in any way. The end result, however indirect, led to the end of the camps.

    Quote Originally Posted by caesar44
    5. Another quotation for you from Ben gurion - "We should fight the Nazis as there is no British rule , and we should fight the British rule as there is no Nazis"
    It has been well established that Ben-Gurion didn't give a **** about anything but Israel. Including the Jews of Europe, who he said, in 1942, "are not my concern", as well as the Jewish children of Europe of whom he said, also in 1942, that he would sacrifice the half of them in order to send the half to a future Israel instead of the whole to different countries at the moment in order to save them. For single minded determination, give the man a cookie. For his humanity, well...
    Last edited by Beirut; 07-01-2005 at 00:19.
    Unto each good man a good dog

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