Swedish roster for OiM

[cegorach]

THe thread is to present my ideas for Sweden in OiM mod. THe roster is detailed, because the OiM TW gives more entries for each eastern european faction.

I am waiting for your reviews.

Many units will be used in PMTW2 - most notably its graphics.

MOre later - but not units, unless you want to propose something.

The timeframe of OiM is 1569-1700.



QUOTE


Swedish roster

THe roster is divided into two parts before and after Gustavus Adolphus.

NOTES

Swedes vs. Finns

I believe these units should be available only in some regions, so Finnish units shouldn't be possible to recruit in Sweden and opposite.

Besides some qualities should give them more interesting character or flavour.

Finns should get better than Swedes bonus in fighting in snow and woods and have better attack value, but their firepower should be smaller than swedish and recruitment are would be smaller. In addition they woudn't use pikemen, which were not popular amongst the Swedes anyway.


UNITS PRE-GUSTAVUS

Swedish militia pikemen
Swedish militia musketeers or rather arquebusiers

- both weak morale and generally weak quality. BOTH recruitable in Sweden and Finland - no differences.

Kungliga Majestäts Drabanter - royal court unit, armed with halberds - the only really good swedish infantry at that time.


Lapp Ski Archers - infantry on ski !
These guys were Lapp tribesmen armed with compound bows and using skis to travel quickly attacking their foes during winters i.e. almost always.
Small numbers, horde formation, loose formation. Armed with daggers and bows. Rather good morale.
Very high bonus to when attacking in snow, vulnerable to cavalry and should be rather weak when fighting somewhere where is no snow - simply give them massive bonus to attack in snow, but pathetic usual stats. VERY fast.

I believe you should prepare the model in two versions. One with ski for custom battles - to allow their use correctly during winters. I hope the players will not use them too often in summer or non-winter weather.
The second model should be used for the campaign - these gus should move quickly, but without skiis to avoid funny comments.

Anyway the unit is worth to be added - it is like these Cossack herd of bulls interesting to use and certainly unique.

++++++++the rest of infantry were mercenaries used e.g. at Kircholm and in other battles.

CAVALRY

Landsryttare

Basic swedish cavalry of that period. Weak morale and pretty bad quality were its main problems.

Svarna Ryttarna

Black reiters of the court cavalry. Pretty good cavalry, but no real comparision to the later Gustavus' reiters.

REFORMED ARMY

Swedish Light Reiters ( Latta Ryttare) - basic swedish cavalry after the reforms.

Disciplined, very good morale, powerful charge, but no or almost no armour, so had problems with enemy armoured cuirassiers e.g. Lutzen 1632.

Pistols and swords.

Swedish Cuirassiers

Rare unit. Were lighter armoured than Hapsburg Cuirassiers - wearing back and breastplates + helmets ( often Polish type - like Polish Husaria). Certainly better in combat than the previous unit, but mostly due to the armour they were wearing.
IN battles usually first ranks were made from these cavalrymen - in theory at least - usually not really.

Pistols and swords.

Livland Cuirassiers

First real cuirassiers in the army of Sweden. Armourde like the Hapsburg cavalry. Very good units, but recruitable only in german speaking Livonia.

Pistols and swords, heavy threequarter armour.

Finnish Hakkapelitta

Finnish light cavalry with terrifying reputation ( no mercy).

Fast, light cavalry, better than ordinary swedish reiters, maybe warcry ability ?
Usually not armoured.

Pistols & swords - but sometimes polish sabres or warhammers.

Swedish Dragoons

Mounted infantry, so bad light cavalry - not good vs. other cavalrymen.

Muskets & swords, no armour.


INFANTRY

Swedish Pikemen - very unpopular unit amongst the Swedes, but essential.

Smaller units than in Imperial armies, 5 meter pikes ( shorter pikes in a myth ! not real), armoured lighter than the Imperialists, but stll well.

Swedish Musketeers - high firepower, good close combat assault value - the core of swedish armies.
Ofter wearing helmets.

Muskets + swords (in theory) - often using musket butts. MUskets with fork rests - again the lighter muskets in swedish armies were not very popular - so they will need it too.

Commanded Musketeers

Smaller units of musketeers supporting swedish cavalry. Should have better firepower than the ordinary swedish or finnish musketeers.

Musket & sword, no armour, no musket rests- lighter muskets were popular amongst them.

Djurskyttar ( Gameshooters) or Swedish Jeagers

Swedish marksmen. They were mounted infantry, but it is impossible to recreate in the RTW engine, so should be light infantry with high firepower ( accurate as well), swedish snipers using cover - so could be experts in hiding in woods and able to hide in long grass, but rather not everywhere.

Musket ( no rest) & sword, no armour.


Yellow Regiment Pikemen

Swedish elite mercenary unit's pikemen - better than ordinary - advanced, elite unit from Sweden.

Pike, sword, armour. YELLOW uniforms.

Yellow Regiment Musketeers

as above, but musketeers.


OLd Blue Regiment Pikemen

as above, but in German areas - LIvonia - german mercenaries, but again elite of the swedish army. BLUE uniforms

OLd Blue Regiment

as above, musketeers.


Lapp Ski Archers

The unit survived reforms, still in use.

Finnish Ski Infantry

Musketeers on ski.

Certainly better than Lapps. Better morale and firepower ( muskets), better attack - used in Livonia and Russia to harass Russians and Poles.

Hakkapelitta Infantry

Finnish Musketeers. Like Swedish ones, but Finns so certain changes. Different uniforms - described later.



ADVANCED

Line INfantry

New flintlock muskets with bayonettes.

Grenadiers

Elite infantry - not granade throwers.

Regards Cegorach

[Radier]

"Swedish militia pikemen
Swedish militia musketeers or rather arquebusiers

- both weak morale and generally weak quality. BOTH recruitable in Sweden and Finland - no differences."

What is this?? Weak morale and quality Swedes are brave!

"Svarna Ryttarna" shall be spelled Svarta Ryttarna (Svarta = Black)


"Swedish Pikemen - very unpopular unit amongst the Swedes, but essential."

Are you sure they were so unpopuluar. The main weapon against the polish nobility were these pikeregiments holding a wood of long spears, or am I wrong In the battle of Warsaw after the swedish invasion 1655 our infantry massacred the way bigger polish army.

Maybe this is just a sake of nationalism but I think Sweden shall be a strong nation. We were feared all over northern Europe when Gustav Adolf arrived in northern Germany with a strongarmy. Ever heard the words:
"Bet Kindchen, bet. Morgen kommt der Schwede..."

I whish PMTW 2 and OiM the best of luck. You are definetly the best!

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=Radier]"Swedish militia pikemen
Swedish militia musketeers or rather arquebusiers

- both weak morale and generally weak quality. BOTH recruitable in Sweden and Finland - no differences."

What is this?? Weak morale and quality Swedes are brave!


>>>>>>>>>>> Before GUstavus reformed the army Swedish and Finnish national troops were really weak. Swedish armies consisted mostly of mercenaries ( that is why the swedish army at Kircholm 1605 in PMTW 1.0 is mostly mercenary ), it changed slowly...

"Svarna Ryttarna" shall be spelled Svarta Ryttarna (Svarta = Black)

>>>>>>>>>> Thanks !


"Swedish Pikemen - very unpopular unit amongst the Swedes, but essential."

Are you sure they were so unpopuluar.

>>>>>>>>> Yes. There are many complains that pikemen were throwing away their pikes or shortening them, so pikemen were not really numerous, never. Many recruits saw serving in pikemen units like a death sentence - usually only 30 % of their number survived a war if Swedes were unlucky, sometimes even less...

The main weapon against the polish nobility were these pikeregiments holding a wood of long spears, or am I wrong In the battle of Warsaw after the swedish invasion 1655 our infantry massacred the way bigger polish army.

>>>>>>>> Losses - Poles 2000-3000, Swedes & Brandenburgians 1000-1500. Hardly a massacre.
The swedish musketeers were the real problem - pikemen were not so important - especially because Husaria shattered their formations anyway.

Maybe this is just a sake of nationalism but I think Sweden shall be a strong nation. We were feared all over northern Europe when Gustav Adolf arrived in northern Germany with a strongarmy. Ever heard the words:
"Bet Kindchen, bet. Morgen kommt der Schwede..."

>>>>>>> It is obvious, but after the reforms.

Regards Cegorach

[Ironside]

Looks quite well, although some lack of units in the pre-reform era.

Some comments.

I assume that we base the reformed army on GIIA late armies and not the later Carolins as it would be messy for the amount of units and simular. Why I check is because the Carolins used pikes (offensivly that is) much more than any counterpart in Europe, esp during Karl XII.

The ski units are there for flavour right? But it works well to symbolize the Swedish tendencies to run thier campaigns longer into the winter than the continent armies and getting advantages out of that.

Djurskyttar isn't a word used in Swedish (correct spelling though ), so unless you seen this word used at the time I would recommend a change to Svenska Jägare (Swedish Jeagers or hunters) or something simular.

Radier, cegorach1 is correct the Swedish army was weak before the reforms, but very strong afterwards.

[Radier]

">>>>>>>> Losses - Poles 2000-3000, Swedes & Brandenburgians 1000-1500. Hardly a massacre.
The swedish musketeers were the real problem - pikemen were not so important - especially because Husaria shattered their formations anyway. "

Oh sorry I have heard an overdriven story

In the battle of Kirkholm.. What kind of merceneries were there? Germans?

And I agree with Ironside. Go with Swedish Jeagers.

">>>>>>>>MOre later - but not units, unless you want to propose something."
What do you mean? You are planning further developement of PMTW 2.0?

">>>>>>>>Yellow Regiment Pikemen

Swedish elite mercenary unit's pikemen - better than ordinary - advanced, elite unit from Sweden."

For whom did they fight? Germans? In that case I think my grand-grand (...) father were in and that is why my last name is Stedt (fit in with the germans)

Regards

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=Radier]">>>>>>>> Losses - Poles 2000-3000, Swedes & Brandenburgians 1000-1500. Hardly a massacre.
The swedish musketeers were the real problem - pikemen were not so important - especially because Husaria shattered their formations anyway. "

Oh sorry I have heard an overdriven story

In the battle of Kirkholm.. What kind of merceneries were there? Germans?

>>>>>>>> Germans, Scots, English + mixture as usual at that time. The same was at Klushino 1610.



What do you mean? You are planning further developement of PMTW 2.0?

>>>>>>>>>> This is for OiM TW - more detailed mod when it comes to this part of Europe.

">>>>>>>>Yellow Regiment Pikemen

Swedish elite mercenary unit's pikemen - better than ordinary - advanced, elite unit from Sweden."

For whom did they fight? Germans? In that case I think my grand-grand (...) father were in and that is why my last name is Stedt (fit in with the germans)

>>>>>>>>> It was an integral part of Swedish army - created as far as early 1620s - one of the first reformed units in Sweden.

Regards Cegorach

[Kapten Kampf]

Lapp Ski Archers - infantry on ski !
These guys were Lapp tribesmen armed with compound bows and using skis to travel quickly attacking their foes during winters i.e. almost always.
Small numbers, horde formation, loose formation. Armed with daggers and bows. Rather good morale.
Very high bonus to when attacking in snow, vulnerable to cavalry and should be rather weak when fighting somewhere where is no snow - simply give them massive bonus to attack in snow, but pathetic usual stats. VERY fast.

Might I ask why a unit like this is needed ? it is not like they played any major roll during any of the wars sweden took part in.

no or almost no armour, so had problems with enemy armoured cuirassiers e.g. Lutzen 1632

But in the earlier part of the thirty years war the hasburgan cavalry still fought in a "spanish" formation (sorry I can't rembere the correct name for it now) when it would ride forward close too the enemy and then the first rank would fire off there pistols and them ove too the last rank while the second rank would fire and them move back too the last rank and etc when they tried too do this against the swedish cavalry the swedes would just charge on them and beat them in close combat.

Swedish Pikemen - very unpopular unit amongst the Swedes, but essential.

I have seen no mentione anywere about the swedish pikes beeing unpopular by the general atleast sure it might be a unit type that recived the highest number of casualties but the swedish pike units showed time and time again that they were well disicplined and brave. The smaller swedish units tottaly devestated imperial pikmen in "spanish formations" and after some battle against the swedish army the hasburgan army changed too the same formations as the swedish used as it was so superior.

Cannons? Adolf the great introduced smaller mobile cannons that were used in a close support of the infantry units are the any plans to simulate this?

Well too tired tght now but I belive it is important to reconise the swedish army for what it was duriing most of the 17th century: a well oiled killing machine that used for a long time superior tactics and organisation then it's foes.

[Keyser]

I have seen no mentione anywere about the swedish pikes beeing unpopular by the general atleast sure it might be a unit type that recived the highest number of casualties but the swedish pike units showed time and time again that they were well disicplined and brave. The smaller swedish units tottaly devestated imperial pikmen in "spanish formations" and after some battle against the swedish army the hasburgan army changed too the same formations as the swedish used as it was so superior.

I would guess it wasn't the pikemen who devastated the imperial infantry formed in bastion-like formation (like the spanish used) but the more concentrated and efficient musketry of the swedes. The linear formations they used didn't give them an edge in melee over the large square they faced, however it gave to their musketeers more firepower.

The french musketry also devastated the spanish tercios at Rocroi, so i think we can see that the swedes better understood technical evolution and the power of fire over shock but not necessarily that their pikemen were superior (or their formation more efficient in close combat).

[cegorach]

Might I ask why a unit like this is needed ? it is not like they played any major roll during any of the wars sweden took part in.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Played small part, but were quite useful in eastern 'small war', besides the unit will represent similar Finnish units as well.





But in the earlier part of the thirty years war the hasburgan cavalry still fought in a "spanish" formation (sorry I can't rembere the correct name for it now) when it would ride forward close too the enemy and then the first rank would fire off there pistols and them ove too the last rank while the second rank would fire and them move back too the last rank and etc when they tried too do this against the swedish cavalry the swedes would just charge on them and beat them in close combat.



>>>>>>>>>>>>> MYTH. It is more than exaggeration which appears in mostly Protestant sources of this period. The truth is that caracole was abandoned before the Swedes entered the 30 years war, but some imperial charges degenerated into caracole, because of lack of discipline or courage.
Better imperial units ( commanded by Piccolomini, Gotz, Pappenheimer and similar) were lethal to Swedish cavalry which had weaker steeds and almost no armour.
Imperial cavalry relyed on weight and armour not shock and speed as Swedish or Polish ones, for this reason it was easier for the Swedes to defeat Polish Husaria than Imperial elite cuirassiers.
The problem was that only some imperial units were good enough...
Nonetheless remember that Gustavus Adolphus himself was killed by Imperial Cuirassiers after his Smaland cavalry was routed.

The smaller swedish units tottaly devestated imperial pikmen in "spanish formations" and after some battle against the swedish army the hasburgan army changed too the same formations as the swedish used as it was so superior.

>>>>>>>>>>> Again. Imperials didn't use Tertio at Breitenfield or Lutzen. This tactic died out earlier and it was the shock of Swedish three-rank salvo which was more important than Swedish pikemen, of course it didn't work at Lutzen.

Cannons? Adolf the great introduced smaller mobile cannons that were used in a close support of the infantry units are the any plans to simulate this?

>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, but is more generic than fection related stuff.

I belive it is important to reconise the swedish army for what it was duriing most of the 17th century: a well oiled killing machine that used for a long time superior tactics and organisation then it's foes.

>>>>>>>>>>> It will be, although I don't think that it was so good 'killing machine' as it is believed.
Rather veteran force forged in the heat of constant warfare, but on feet of clay of small population.

Anyway.

If you have something to propose for Swedish armies past GUstavus Adolphus
I will be glad to learn.

Regards Cegorach