Multiplayer standards

[khelvan]

Hi guys, we over at EB are starting to look at balancing our mod for multiplayer. I had a few questions - are there any standard rules you use, such as denarii amounts?

Or, if not, what about averages?

Thanks!

[CBR]

My advice would be to use a nice and simple number like 10k per player, easy to remember and easy to adjust for the various types of games 1v1-4v4=10k-40k


CBR

[NimbleNota]

Right now most games for tournaments are around these rules:

12.5k for money
8 max combat cav
No art or limited amount
No elies or limited amounts
max 5 on unit types

[Loinnreach]

M8 if you are interested how multiplayer interferance should be like, then check Chivalry mod for RTW.
There you don't need almost no rules to play quality multiplayer games.

I suggest you Khelvan to contact Adherbal on this, becaus he also managed to made two different systems for units. One for SP (suites more to SP players) and another for MP players. (if my info is correct here)

VorCid

[CBR]

RTW allows for two different cost for units, one for SP and one for MP/custom battle so cost changes can be made without effecting SP.


CBR

[tibilicus]

Mine normaly is 1vs 1= 10k, No egypt, 5 max combat cav and thats about it.

[Cheetah]

Right now most games for tournaments are around these rules:

12.5k for money
8 max combat cav
No art or limited amount
No elies or limited amounts
max 5 on unit types

or:

12500 denari
no art, no egypt
max 5 per unit types
8 max cav (ele, chariots, HA included)

[khelvan]

Thanks - I was interested in the monetary values and such, it is much appreciated.

Yes, we're aware of how to adjust costs and the like, we just wanted to understand what standards were out there.

Cheers!

[CBR]

AFAIK the EB mod stands for realism and historical accuracy, so its up to you to make a standard for MP if you want the same type of gameplay there


CBR

[Wishazu]

As long as youve fixed egypt there shouldnt really be any major problems :)

[khelvan]

Fixed Egypt? Oh my, are you in for a treat...

;)

[Loinnreach]

Only standard is 12,5k denari.

All other ''standards'' are not standarts in word it self, becaus this rules were raised of RTW unit imbalance and cavalry killing speed.

You are doing good job.

[Puzz3D]

Using CBR's idea you raise the morale of the units so that you don't need upgrades, and raise the base price of the units so that upgrades are not cost effective. Then you can set the money level such that it limits the number of elite units that can be purchased, and that becomes the standard money level at which the mod should be played.

[Orda Khan]

Hello Khelvan,
Whereas I agree that 12,500 is a denarii level that some players use, ( the game seems to play well at this level ) it is far from being a 'standard'. From what I see there is no standard, with 1,000,000 denarii games being hosted as often as 60,000 or any other amount.

In MTW days there were basically two schools, one for 10,000 and the other for 15,000. There were of course the 99,999 'big mani' games but thankfully they were not the norm.

With the initial MP problems associated with RTW a lot of disillusioned vets gave up on the game which has only compounded the 'standard' level.

7,000 denarii ( IMO ) was an interesting level gameplaywise ( providing honourable play was undertaken ) but there is still the underlying desire of the masses to want to field only elite units. This dilema will still exist with EB for MP. If you set the standard at 10,000 denarii I can assure you there will be 1,000,000 denarii 3v3 situations. ( This is why the 'vet exodus' was more damaging than the MP problems that exist with RTW ) As you can see by some replies, certain rules have been introduced to try to remedy these issues. The Code of Honour movement was created for the benefit of those who prefer tactical, enjoyable battles over Praetorian cav blobs. With more players playing this way I think the 'issue' would have been less of an issue.

EB has removed the nonsense from the game and creating a standard denarii level would be relatively easy. The hard part I fear, will be getting players to use this standard now that things are so way off track.

For simplicity sake I would go for 10,000 or 15,000 ( purely because the increments are easier to work out )

........Orda

[Puzz3D]

Adjusting denari level can't fix several gameplay issues such as cav beating phalanx head on, excessive speed, excessive delay in response to move commands, creating superunits by overlapping, the runthrough exploit on spears, unbalanced units such as desert cav and overpowered artillery.

[Orda Khan]

Adjusting denari level can't fix several gameplay issues such as cav beating phalanx head on, excessive speed, excessive delay in response to move commands, creating superunits by overlapping, the runthrough exploit on spears, unbalanced units such as desert cav and overpowered artillery.

Oddly enough when I tested 4 cataphracts against 4 silver shield pikes, the conclusion was much less one sided. The spears were set on phalanx formation and nothing else. One unit of cats routed in a very short time, another was reduced to very few that also routed and the other two cats eventually won. The whole test concluded with only 32 cataphracts total remaining. Now I would agree that the spears should win this but the result was far from overwhelming and I think the guy using pikes would have turned his unit that routed the cats in on the flank of the next? This would have produced an entirely different outcome IMO.

Basically all of these issues are irrelevant in Europa Barbarorum

........Orda

[Mongoose]

i agree. Stacking and small battle maps might be a problem though.


Too bad that SJ's method would take too long to implement.

[Puzz3D]

Oddly enough when I tested 4 cataphracts against 4 silver shield pikes, the conclusion was much less one sided.

Did you use the cataphract's secondary weapon? It gives the cataphracts more of an advantage since their secondary weapon is better than their primary weapon.

Basically all of these issues are irrelevant in Europa Barbarorum

That's true, but the vets left because you can't correct the gameplay just by changing denari level. That was my point.

[jacked]

Did you use the cataphract's secondary weapon? It's very onesided when you do, but I don't have the results readily available.

Didn't know the cataphracts had secondary weapons

[CBR]

Several cavalry units have a secondary weapon that has higher attack rating than the spear/lance. As a quick rule just use Alt click to attack when using cavalry as its either the same as the lance or better.


CBR

[Puzz3D]

Didn't know the cataphracts had secondary weapons

Good luck playing online then. They have a very effective armor piercing mace as a secondary weapon. Play Samurai Wars for MTW/VI. It doesn't have tricky stuff like secondary weapons. Samutrai Wars is WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get).

[CBR]

Yeah depending on the armour of the unit they are fighting they could have up to 8 more in attack when using their mace. Very powerful indeed.


CBR

[Orda Khan]

Did you use the cataphract's secondary weapon? It gives the cataphracts more of an advantage since their secondary weapon is better than their primary weapon.

Yes

That's true, but the vets left because you can't correct the gameplay just by changing denari level. That was my point.

Leaving the MP lobby completely will not solve anything.

.......Orda

[Puzz3D]

Leaving the MP lobby completely will not solve anything.

It solves the frustration of playing the game the way it is. The players who can see the flaws in the basic gameplay aren't going to hang around for a year or more to see if CA will adjust it. Mods might make the gameplay acceptable to veteran players, but none of the mods are ready.

I ran the cataphract vs silvershield pikemen replay that I have in RTW v1.2, and the silvershields got wiped out by a frontal charge. It's 4 cataphracts charging 4 silver shield pikemen who are in guard mode 8 men deep. The silver shields lost 121, 121, 120 and 94 men. The cataphracts lost 42, 31, 35 and 39 men. That's a 3 to 1 kill rate in favor of the cataphracts which are about half the size of the pike units.

[jacked]

isn't the cataphracts scondary weapon its sword

[Jochi Khan]

Secondary weapon is a mace.

Jochi

[jacked]

its a mace always thought it was a sword

[Orda Khan]

This has no relevance to a thread about denarii levels in EB, it is obvious that this will just go on and on. I'm not going to hijack this thread

.....Orda

[Puzz3D]

Rules and denai level for a mod are determined by the mod's design not the unmodded game.

[Jammin]

Just for everyone's interest these are the rules I play by:
It may seem different and restrictive to other rulesets but the people I play with agree that it makes for a better battle experience and reduces cav and archer spamming.

13,500 denarii.
Max 4 archers
Max 4 elite infantry (urbans, spartans, sacred band).
no fire artillery
Cavalry, Elephants and Chariots are determined by a point sytem.
Heavy cav, eles and chariots = 2 points, and light cavalry = 1 point.
For your army, you're allowed 6 points of cav - so you can mix and match as you sit fit for the cav you want to bring.
(potentially 6 light cav or 3 heavy).
We made a list of what is heavy and light.

The battles are fun because it makes the battles determined more on infantry (which is the way it should have always been) and allows every unit in the game to be brought without having limits.
Like with a limit of 5 cav for instance - you would always see heavy cav being brought because 5 light cavalry will seriously put you at a disadvantage.