Japanese warlords.

[Kagemusha]

Yup, the plan was made by Yamamoto Kansuke. Also the importance of the Takeda's 24-generals in success of Shingen shouldn't be forgotten.

And old Yamamoto Kansuke made an suicide charge against Uesugi troops after he realized that the plan went wrong. My favourite Takeda general is Yamagata Masakage Maybe the greatest of Shingens Cavalry commanders.After the battle of Nagashino where Masakage died.It was sayd that Togukawa Ieasy sayd that he was afraid of old Masakage even more then Shingen.

[edyzmedieval]

True....

Yamagata Masakage was indeed a good commander, but Baba and Kosaka were the Marshalls of the Takeda army......

[Uesugi Kenshin]

You have to remember that the only historical document pertaining to the 4th Kwanakajima was written by the Takeda some years after the battle, and both of their deaths. You also have to remember that the very next summer Kenshin was off campaigning with a large veteran force in another of his border regions. This evidence points to a Uesugi victory, though it is impossible to say whether the clearly biased Takeda document (which IIRC states that they lost equal numbers of soldiers) is correct that they won tactically or if Kenshin won and the Takeda were just covering up a shameful battle that few living people had actually been in.

[Kagemusha]

I agree with Kenshin on 4th Kavanakajima.Gyo Gunkan is hardly an very trustable historical source.I personally think it may have been tie because if Takeda routed Uesugi why didnt they fallow them to Echigo or vice versa?

[edyzmedieval]

I agree with Kenshin on 4th Kavanakajima.Gyo Gunkan is hardly an very trustable historical source.I personally think it may have been tie because if Takeda routed Uesugi why didnt they fallow them to Echigo or vice versa?

It didn't fallow because Kenshin got himself out of the trap....

Koyo Gunkan is the only book available.... It has some evidence, after all....

[edyzmedieval]

You have to remember that the only historical document pertaining to the 4th Kwanakajima was written by the Takeda some years after the battle, and both of their deaths. You also have to remember that the very next summer Kenshin was off campaigning with a large veteran force in another of his border regions. This evidence points to a Uesugi victory, though it is impossible to say whether the clearly biased Takeda document (which IIRC states that they lost equal numbers of soldiers) is correct that they won tactically or if Kenshin won and the Takeda were just covering up a shameful battle that few living people had actually been in.

Takeda only lost 2 veterans: Takeda Nobushige, Shingen's brother and Yamamoto Kansuke.... Not a very big tragedy.... It was something, but Baba and Kosaka resisted, but the ididotic Katsuyori massacred them at Nagashino.....

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I never said it was a giant tragedy, though the loss of those generals was significant.

Also just because the Koyo Gunkan is the only book available doesn't mean it is to be trusted, it describes the strategy and tactics used fairly well it is quite possible that they changed the conclusion of the battle from defeat to a near draw. That is what makes this an interesting topic, nobody is sure so most theories are relatively valid and we can actually talk about it, not just state facts.

[Kraxis]

I have to pile in with Uesugi Kenshin as well.

It simply doesn't add up to a Takeda victory. It was a claimed victory, sure, but that does not make it so, just like both Germany and the UK claims/claimed victory at Jutland, in reality it is far from a set fact.
Since neither side gained anything from this supposedly very bloody battle it can't have been anything but a draw. Both Shingen and Kenshin were ruthless on the battlefield and in their campaigns (good virtues for commadners), but in this particular case they didn't seem to act up to their usual behaviour. It wasn't as if they had more pressing matters to attend to right away. The road was open for the victor as both sides had used up their recruiting potential for the year.

A draw... But one brilliant draw, and basically the only result these two could get.

And even if it was a loss for Kenshin I still consider him better. Why?
Well, Shingen had the larger and 'better' army, and then performed a bright maneuver (be it his not it was good). Kenshin on the other hand somehow sniffed this out and struck the exposed flanking force without the other Takeda force knew it.
Now that makes his own maneuver even more impressive.

Btw, Nobunaga said after Kenshin was killed: "Ah, now Japan is mine!" Or something along those lines. Not entirely the same comment came after Shingen's death, if there was one.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Kenshin's goal that year was to force Shingen to attack him, he accomplished that. He also may have won (though it is up for debate) and it probably helped him secure that border, as Shingen did not have a great army on that border anymore.