Swords vs Phalanx

[pezhetairoi]

Okay, here's the situation. You're playing the Brutii, you're in the early game with not even one measly unit of archers, and (if you're lucky) at most one of Cretans. You have 2 units of velites and 6 units of hastati. You've got 4 generals.

The enemy is Greek, has 3 hoplites and 3 militia hoplites, and one general in the city. How will you take possession of the breach with limited missile troops and a bunch of swordsmen who get poked to death on a bunch of long pointy sticks? Or let's increase the contrast. Instead of Hastati, let's have Iberians. Instead of Velites, try skirmishers. How would you go about winning the battles?

Right now my idea has been to shower the enemy with whatever missiles/stones/arrows/javelins/frying pans that I have, then rush my iberians into three breaches adjacent to one another, with the generals following a few seconds later. It's worked, but the casualties are not very pleasant.

Are there any better ways of doing this?

[professorspatula]

Against phalanx units, and only having weak sword infantry and basic skirmishers, you can expect heavy casualties in frontal attacks during a settlement battle. Phalanx units at their most lethal in these narrow-quarter battles.

You're on the right track though, showering the enemy with missiles. Before you enter the city, the AI often wastes its men by walking them within skirmisher range and in front of the gates. Keep firing at these idiots when they walk past. If missiles are running low, turn off fire-at-will mode, and only tell your skirmishers to throw their javelins when the enemy are walking from left to right so that their shield is on the wrong side to protect them from the missiles. (I'm assuming this is a wooden wall city and not a stone one.)

And then prepare for carnage as per usual I suppose. If you have the time, try and make one breach around the side of the enemy settlement, so that when your main army attacks through the front of the city, you have a couple of units able to sneak in and attack the enemy from behind. Won't work if the enemy keeps some units in reserve at the Town square mind. Cavalry is good for flank/rear attacks though.

You'll really rely on making on the enemy rout when attacking them in the streets. Once they rout and they have their back to you, cavalry will finish them off fast. Routing them is the tricky thing though. You need to break up the phalanx formation. Cavalry charges can work well, but if the initial cavalry charge comes to nothing, you'll take large losses. To break up the phalanx line, you could tell you cavalry or infantry to attack a unit behind the nearest phalanx unit, so that they try to run through it. This may sound suicidal, but your men will try and break through the line of the first phalanx unit to reach their goal, hopefully breaking up the rigid phalanx formation, and forcing the hoplites to use their rubbish swords which makes them easier to kill. Often if you just click on the first phalanx unit to attack, your men get stuck on the spears and struggle to get near enough to inflict damage. See near photo-realistic demonstration below:

Eg:
HHHH -- Hoplites waiting to poke your men, Attack these
HHHH -- Hoplites poking your men
IIIIIII -- Your infantry getting poked.
IIIIIII -- Your infantry waiting to get poked and possibly wetting themselves at the thought.

With Hastati, the battle is easier: have them on fire at will mode and line them up behind one another when you enter the city. Let the Hastati fire at the enemy on their own accord, and each volley should wipe out a large number of the enemy hoplites. A couple of volleys at close range might rout some hoplites too.

Try and hire some merc hoplites for battles against the Greeks. They'll help level the playing field.

And that's all the useless information I can give regarding your situation. Try bringing along some dogs or Scutarii or whatever else you can next time to give yourself more options.

[Productivity]

I assume that we're talking wooden walls here. Multiple breach points, you have eight foot units, they have seven units total.

That means that they can at best plug seven holes in their walls. So put eight (or more if you feel like going over the top) holes in their walls, and look at what hole they leave uncovered. Move that unit in, and then watch as they move their units to meet it, leaving more holes uncovered, move those units in etc. By the end you should be able to get a little maneuvering going, until you can hit one enemy unit in the back.

[Somebody Else]

Breach the walls, in at least two places - I usually go for the gate and the wall next to it. Use javelins to force the enemy away from the breach, as soon as this is done, rush the infantry in and have them deploy facing along the wall so as to receive the counter-charge. Then, move in the cavalry through the other breach and hit them in the rear. Mop up as necessary.

If you can't lure them away from a gap, and there's one phalanx unit blocking the breach, send in two units of infantry, or cavalry. They will engage the enemy - make them disengage, anr run in opposite directions - with the phalanx unit in between. Then make a phalanx sandwich.

[Franconicus]

Break the gate. They will propably block it with a phalanx. Pepper this. Then break the wall on the left and right. Let your swords attack the phalanx from the side. Maybe use javelins from the other. Use your general only to fight their general.

I once fought a unit of triarii that blocked a hole with British head hurlers. It was increadible efective. I killed 2 of 3 without casulties.

[Garvanko]

I rarely use my general in sieges, especially against factions with factions.. Usually send him in when the other troops get to the center, as a gesture of triumphalism..

[Lancome]

If I were you I would get Merc Hoplites and Poke them back. Anyways, I go agree w/ the multiple Breaches in the Gate and 2 on the walls Next to the gate. Yea, Breaching from the Flanks is a good Idea since its a free invite to your units, If you have any Cavalry rush'em to the main battle and hit those Hop's from the Rear !!!!!!!!!!

[Horatius]

The Senate gives you ten turns to complete the mission. So just starve them to death.

They will Sally forth, and just take them with missles as they move out and attack them from the side.

Try to hit the militia Hoplites with your missles and charge to the side, militia hoplites have low morale and they will route faster then the regular hoplites.

[pezhetairoi]

Ah, but we're assuming I'm not in a rush. But I work on strict campaign schedules and usually assault cities the turn after I besiege them, which negates the 'starve-out' part.

Mein gott, Ptah! Wonderful diagrams! Did you do them yourself?

[Ptah]

Yes, pez, I made them and have posted them during the early days of RTW when people were talking about a lot of ways to defeat phalanx. I've been thinking about ways to defeat Greek armies with Roman units, without numbers advantage, without siege/range weapons, without cavalry, and without elite units.

Naturally, I've arrived at the conclusion that the only way to do that is to move faster than the phalanx, throughout the entire battlefield. It was tricky at first, but I did succeed afterwards, and made these diagrams to share my experiences.

[antisocialmunky]

If you shoot at a phalanx unit from THEIR right side, they lose their shield bonus because their shields only defend their left and front... everyone being right handed and all.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Historically the weakness of the phalanx was the lack of mobility and fact that they have to walk, because once you get around their flanks they are screwed. You don't neccessarilly even need a centre. You can just attack with two flanking forces. That dirty great wall of spears is no use if it has nothing to smash into.

Ultimatly though if you are assaulting you've already lost. You lose a huge proportion of your army, usually less troops than the enemy loses and you've damaged the walls, so if you have to defend next turn you are trying to plug all those lovely breaches that you made.

a Siege is a waste of time and resources, more so than a pitched battle, but an assault is worse. So says Master Sun.