Swords vs Phalanx

[master of the puppets]

i won't attack at all, be a tactician dude! just lay seige until they starve (unlikely) or salley forth. when they salley put your skirmishers to harrass them as they walk twards your mass of hastati. when they get close hastati throw pila and run. enemy follow. during this time your general cavalry is inching around the flank of the hoplites. send one to engage and chase away there general and the restr to attack them in the back. the moment the lines are fractured charge in all infantry, even depleted velites and overwhelm them.

thats how i'd do it.

[hoom]

Multiple breaches is too cheap.

Train up some more people & take the hits.
Merc hoplites is a good idea if you can find em.
Also, make sure your swords are off defensive mode so they can get round to the flanks.

If its stone walls just scale them & chopem up.

[Oaty]

Swords beat spears

Merc hoplites is the #1 option IMO. You can use the hoplites to tie them up frontally and then hit a flank with your hastati.

But before you breach the walls have fire at will off. This way when you breach or are about to breach you can unload volleys on them causing them to back away and let you come in freely on the breech.

The killer unit is always that 1 unit that stayed at the town square and if your out of missiles you can't lure them out.

[pezhetairoi]

Great advice from all of you, thanks! But some questions... Someone Else, wouldn't making the phalanx sandwich at the walls be dangerous? What with the hoplites blocking the breach they'll take pokes at your hastati while they run to either side... Master of puppets, the problem with your idea is that I work on strict schedules so I don't like to wait out sieges...if that were the case it would take the Brutii forever to conquer the east since they're all phalanx civilisations.

I had a custom battle where the hoplites just waited in the road leading to the square from the gates, just out of velite range and just near enough to kill velites as I tried to get them through the gates to put them in range of the hoplites. That could be a problem.

And also, about the cavalry charging through a phalanx into the one behind tactics, just curious, but...what if there -isn't- a phalanx behind? Does it still work? Never tried...

Aaaaaand... dgb, your tactics may be a little timewasting :-P Firstly to make eight breaches without using the same ram, it'd take you 8 rams which correspond to 2 turns' building time even with a full-stack, and the full duration of the battle in manoeuvre... But still it's an interesting option to try in times of boredom! ^_^

I shall now go home to try out the suggestions on Corinth and Sparta... Thanks everyone! My name may read 'Master Strategist', but too bad there wasn't enough space to put in the other half, 'Mediocre Tactician'. I'm serious.

[Productivity]

Aaaaaand... dgb, your tactics may be a little timewasting :-P Firstly to make eight breaches without using the same ram, it'd take you 8 rams which correspond to 2 turns' building time even with a full-stack, and the full duration of the battle in manoeuvre... But still it's an interesting option to try in times of boredom! ^_^

You underestimate how bored I can get. I once went around and broke down every wall in a city with only two rams .

Well it would work, even if it would take a while to do it. I also fail to see why it's a cheap tactic. It's hardly exploiting the AI.

[CMcMahon]

You know what I don't get? Why phalanxes can't be used on stone walls. That and the fact that if I was guarding a fortress, I'd most definitely put siege weapons on top of those towers. And repeating ballistas on the ends of the walls.

[Somebody Else]

Someone Else, wouldn't making the phalanx sandwich at the walls be dangerous? What with the hoplites blocking the breach they'll take pokes at your hastati while they run to either side...

Yes, some will die - but hastati are cheap, just make sure they don't have another phalanx ready to come in and counter-flank. The thing is, the AI doesn't stick its blocking units close enough to the gap to actually block it. Anyway - I only do this when I've had spies open the gates for me, and I don't want to go through a siege. It actually works better using the general units - as they have a couple of hitpoints which help get past the phalanx in the first place, and a double charge from both sides should be enough to finish them off.

The double breach thing is still a better method, gives a little more room to play around, and do the crucial thing, which is to hit the phalanx units in the rear, or flanks.

[Lancome]

I agree w/ multiple breaches. Imagine Charging at a group of sparts head on in a breach. Sparts = Screwed.

[Marquis of Roland]

After you breach the enemy walls in multiple areas (don't have to be as many as 8 in my experience I usually breach 3-4 and it works well on H/H AI) don't rush your breaching units in immediately. Then see which gap they leave open, and rush your main assault force in from there (usually the AI will heavily defend the area around the gate, leaving 1 unit at the city corners to flank). If your breaching units stand in front of the breaches without attacking it would cement any AI units attempting to hold the breach where they stand, thus your main assault force can flank them. If they turn away from the breach, your breaching units can rush in and flank them. Its a good way of holding enemy units stationary without casualties (you can also throw javelins, rocks, your missile of choice at them while you're standing around).

The AI will also have at least two of his better units in the city square (and posibly his general as well) at all times and 1-2 units in the streets further into the city so by units you will locally outnumber him possibly 2-1. Hastati should take on militia hoplites with relatively acceptable losses and AI will only have 1 hoplite if he keeps two hoplites in the city center. Make judicious use of your general's cav, take advantage of the fact that all your units can move faster and react faster than theirs (since they're in phalanx), you should be alright.

[Ptah]

Here's the basics of anti-phalanx maneuvering I've posted quite some time ago.
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1. The failure of the standard battle line against phalanx lines

Deploying one's forces parallel to enemy lines is pretty much the standard tactic in most every occasion. This method is literally 'standard', and has no serious drawbacks, but possibly, the fact that it is "standard" is itself a drawback in that against highly 'specialized' enemy forces, it does not offer any kind of real mobility. Most often the initiative is lost, and you are forced to fight the enemy at their own terms - because, you are being passive.

For example, look at the following picture:



Typically, assuming equal numbers, a standard battle line against the phalanx is ineffective at best, with often catastrophic results. The basic principle of tactical maneuvering is to surround and destroy, while avoiding being surrounded yourself.

However, with equal numbers deployed on the battle field, the chances are, against phalanxes whatever forces you send to flank will not be able to get the job done in time. The phalanx is immensely powerful in its frontal areas. When a collective of enemy center advances, your center just will not be able to hold line long enough until you flanking attacks meet some kind of success.


2. Strengthening the center is NOT an alternative

The situation is pretty self evident.



In response to the problems of the center being pushed, what happens if you strengthen the center lines with more units? The attempt to flank enemy units will not work at all. And still, your center will be eventually driven back.


3. The Epimenondas Alternative

Deploying your forces in an echelon pattern, with one side stronger and the other side weaker, is a classic response to fighting enemy forces with superior frontal attack.



Your objective is to hit one corner of the enemy line with all your strongest section('forward wing'), while the weaker rear section('rear wing') remains ready to react.

The problem with the standard, parallel battle line, is that holding the battle line is in fact, sacrificing your best advantage against enemy phalanxes - mobility. There is no reason to think that all of your forces have to be nearly arranged in a single line. As long as you can react, and control your forces fast enough, a battle formation split into multiple numbers can become a quite powerful alternative.



When your forward wing hits one corner of the enemy line with all its might, the phalagites are forced to react.




If they break the phalanx line to engage your forward wing, disengage your forward wing and lure enemy phalanx units to the forward wing. At the same time, your rear wing begins to react and hits the few rear units of the enemy phalanx, picking them off one by one. If you observe closely, you will notcie that by hitting one corner of the enemy line, and forcing them to react, you are able effectively "surround" individual enemy units with ease. By grabbing the initiative and striking the first blow, you force them to react in a certain way you expect - and this, is the key importance of aggressive tactics, as opposed to the 'standard' methods of tactical formations which are inherently defensive and passive.




If the enemy phalanx lines chooses to temporarily ignore your flanking attacks, and advances to your weaker, rear wing in an orderly fashion (hoping to deal with the rear wing first), then you can keep attacking its same corner with the forward wing, gnawing and tearing apart the corner units one by one. Your rear wing will continuously retreat in an orderly fashion, luring the enemy centerline to it... while the forward wing gets its job done.




If the enemy phalanx units choose to retaliate your flanking maneuver in an orderly fashion, disengage your forward wing and regroup them nearby enemy advancement as quick as possible. At the same time, your rear wing moves to the opposite corner of the phalanx line. This rear wing, now becomes a new forward wing.


...

The essentials of such tactical maneuvering is; a) always move faster than the enemy, b) always make them react. Don't wait for them to make the first move. Try to be aware of what happens in the battlefield as a whole, and keep moving your units into positions that matter.


In the end, with equal number of units, a standard swordsmen unit has no chance to beat a phalanx unit if you fight them on their terms. They are hard spears - they need the battle formation to stay intact. They need to face you to attack. Always move around, and force them to break battle formation as much as possible.