Templar Thread

[Brutus]

The other day I was (re-)reading a book about the Knights Templar which containde both a brief official history as well as some of the myths connected to them. It struck me that the Templars always seem to be at the basis of every mystery or conspiracy theory: for example, Dan Brown's "The Da Vinci Code" featured the Templars, and recent Nicolas Cage-movie "National Treasure" also contained them. Many are the theories that surround them, and even more the questions:

-Did they really worship heads?
-Who was the mysterious Baphomet? (A wrong pronounciation of Mahomet, Muhammed?)
-Did they find something below the Temple ruins in Jerusalem, and, if so, what?
-Do they still exist? (according to some 19th century document, they still do)
-Where they part of a "Grand Scheme", just like the first crusade?
And so on.

Of course, many mysteries do come into play, mainly connected to their demise in the early fourteenth century:

-Where the accusations (sodomy, heresy, etc.) against them real or just retoric to prove them 'evil'?
-What happened to the Templar fleet that left La Rochelle in 1307 (just before all Templars in France were arrested) and was never seen or heard of again?
-Was it a coincedence that both king Philip IV the Fair of France and pope Clement V died within a year after they brought Grand Master Jacques de Molay to burn at the stake?
-etc.

As a historian-to-be (finishing study next year), I am still inclined to say these theories are all just bullocks, invented because people didn't want to understand the horrible truth behind the end of the Templars (Philip IV just wanted their money!) and see the Templars as abunch of fanatics who got too rich to be respected any longer. However, these theories arefun and quite interesting none the less. I wonder, does anybody here has any more to say on the subject?

[Templar Knight]

Templar fleet - Many Templars survived prosecution by going underground. Part of the fleet sailed to Portugal where the Templars simply took another name. The rest of the fleet set sail for Scotland where the Scottish independence movement provided an excellent cover. The Templars would repay their Scottish guardians by helping them defeating the English at Bannockburn a few short years later.

Where the accusations (sodomy, heresy, etc.) against them real or just retoric to prove them 'evil'? - They were false. It was made up so that their land and money would be siezed.

Did they find something below the Temple ruins in Jerusalem, and, if so, what? - Belived to be the holy grail which they took back to Scotland and placed under Roslyn Chapel outside Edinburgh - there are other places in the British Isles that it may have been taken to.

Do they still exist? - Yes

Was it a coincedence that both king Philip IV the Fair of France and pope Clement V died within a year after they brought Grand Master Jacques de Molay to burn at the stake? - Grand Master Jacques de Molay said that they would join him in death within a year - which came true

[Brutus]

Templar fleet - Many Templars survived prosecution by going underground. Part of the fleet sailed to Portugal where the Templars simply took another name. The rest of the fleet set sail for Scotland where the Scottish independence movement provided an excellent cover. The Templars would repay their Scottish guardians by helping them defeating the English at Bannockburn a few short years later.

I've heard so, yes. However, I've also heard some of these ships actually reached the America's. Most importantly, however, it seems this ship contained the order's treasure (see "National treasure"? ). I personally find it hard to believe this were to be the Holy Grail itself. (also, that leaves the question: what ís the Holy Grail, or, better still, is it a person instead of an object?)

Where the accusations (sodomy, heresy, etc.) against them real or just retoric to prove them 'evil'? - They were false. It was made up so that their land and money would be siezed.

I'd say so too. It would certainly explain why indeed the Portuguese and Scottish kings didn't believe these accusations, and Philip was notoriously power-hungry (ask any Fleming on the .org). However, there are some disturbing sherds of evidence that there were some strange things going on within the order. For example, one of the order's memebers confessed new members were made to defile the bible and spit on the cross during their inauguration. This was supposed to prepare them against Muslim torture, he said. This explanation sounds highly dubious to me.

Did they find something below the Temple ruins in Jerusalem, and, if so, what? - Belived to be the holy grail which they took back to Scotland and placed under Roslyn Chapel outside Edinburgh - there are other places in the British Isles that it may have been taken to.

There also seems to be the theory they also found the stone tablets containing the Ten Commandments, I believe.

Do they still exist? - Yes

Could you clarify this? I'm most interested.

Was it a coincedence that both king Philip IV the Fair of France and pope Clement V died within a year after they brought Grand Master Jacques de Molay to burn at the stake? - Grand Master Jacques de Molay said that they would join him in death within a year - which came true

Indeed. Bad luck for them?

[Templar Knight]

Could you clarify this? I'm most interested.

The order went 'extinct' in the aftermath of 1307 after they were made illegal. Many Knights Templar went underground more as a secret society rather than the great military order that they once had been. It is commonly believed that freemasonry is descended from the Knights Templar.

The Knights Templar and Knights Templar of Aberdeen are a higher part of freemasonry. (In Scotland - it might be different elsewhere)

check out: http://www.templarhistory.com

[King Henry V]

Some also fled to England, where Edward II attempted to hold off the Inquisition . For a certain time he succeeded, but in the end the pressure of the French king and the Pope meant that he had to allow the trial of Templars.
I prefer to think that the Holy Grail was the chalice from which Christ drank at the Last Supper, not the theory that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had a child with her, which seems to be the rage nowadays.

[Meneldil]

Do they still exist? - Yes

Errrr...is your claim based on any real fact ?

A lot of people claim to be templars' spiritual heirs, but all of them are just trying to get some attention from the medias.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I think some people here need to start looking at real historical evidence rather than trashy mysteries or origin myths of early modern secret societies(whom I have a great deal more respect for than the authors of the aforementioned mystery books).

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I prefer to think that the Holy Grail was the chalice from which Christ drank at the Last Supper, not the theory that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had a child with her, which seems to be the rage nowadays.

Good for you! Those evil heretics who made that up.........

[edyzmedieval]

I agree completely with King Henry V....

Stupid cathars and heretics....

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

That "rage" you are refering to KH has been going on alot longer than Dan Browns Da Vinci Code and other stuff diving on the bandwagon. I have studied much on this area and there is alot of evidence for it, much more than most of the stories from the Bible and some of the theories of the Church.

[edyzmedieval]

How many piety points do you have BKB???!!!

Just joking... It's everyone's choice to accept a different theory....

BTW, where can I find about Grand Master Jacques de Molay?

[Brutus]

I guess the problem here is that the "Holy Grail" in conventional literature laways is seen as an object, most popularly as the cup which contained the wine at the Last Supper and in which the blood of Christ was caught by St. Joseph of Arimethea. However, it never was entirely clear if the Grail indeed was this Cup (notwithstanding more popular connotations like Indiana Jones), but it could, for example, also be the lance which pierced Christs side on the Cross. (This spear, by the way, is said to be the one nowadays lying in a Vienna museum), or actually any kind of object with apparently very strange powers (I also recall a theory making it apiece of meteor).

However, the theory of the Grail being a person could indeed be just as old and just as valid. The most striking "evidence" seems to be linguistic: San Greal (Holy Grail) or Sang Real (Royal Blood)? Some apocriphic texts indeed state that Mary Magdalen was Jezus' wife, so if that were true he would most likely had children. However, to believe the Grail is a person first means believing this other evidence, which in itself is hard enough, especially as it is contrary to Christian official opinion.

By the way, Edyzmedieval, I don't think any Kathar would have believed this theory anyway...

[edyzmedieval]

I don't wanna have a fight on religious matters...

Shall we resume the topic?! Info on Grand Master Jacques de Molay please...

[Brutus]

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to start one.
Check out the site Templar Knight recommended: http://www.templarhistory.com

[Templar Knight]

Info on Grand Master Jacques de Molay:

http://www.templarhistory.com/demolay.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_Molay

[Kagemusha]

Im a right,but arent The order of knights Templar still illegal in modern France?

[Meneldil]

Quite unlikely, our laws were re-made from scratch in 1789, and I doubt someone came in and said
"Hey guys, do you remember these damn templar knights that disapeared a while ago ? Yeah ? Cause I think we should ban them aswell".

I'm still waiting for evidences that the templars still exist...

And the "the Grail is Jesus' son theory" is known since the beginning of the middle age I think. And cathar believed to that faithfully.

[Templar Knight]

I'm still waiting for evidences that the templars still exist...

I cant give you any evidence on a plate but the 'Knights Templar' exist only in the higher parts of freemasonry, obviously not as the military and religious order that they were before 1307.

Masonic Knights Templarism: http://www.templarhistory.com/masonic.html

[Watchman]

I think the blighters are still around and have been since their demolition in much the same form as the Hospitallers and sundry other Orders (including the ubiquitous national "trophy orders") - a teeny-weeny little organisation that gives assorted medals, crosses and so on to people considered to have earned it. The Pope at the time reputedly wasn't initially all that hot about obliterating the Templars, but then again French kings often held the holder of said office literally hostage too and otherwise tended to have a lot of clout over them. Politics. Often a matter where the Pope was treated like a damn doormat or neat tool. Anyway, whereas the the Order was annihilated and dissolved as a military, political and economic organization a small vestige was retained for ceremonial purposes.

Or at least that's the basic gist on the topic I read in a book about medals, honorary knightly orders and suchlike.

As for some odd practices they may have had, well, they did send small expeditions all over the Middle East and even into Africa in search of various things, including the ever-elusive Prester John. It'd be curious indeed if they didn't pick up some funny ideas on the side. And, for what it's worth, they had extensive if not exactly cordial contact with the Syrian branch of the Assassins (who essentially paid them and sporadically also the King of Jerusalem rent for a few castles), certainly a potential source of some pretty strange ideas if there ever was one.

As for why they feature so prominently in silly conspiracy theories, well, they were closely associated with the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem from the start (their full name actually reads "the Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon" or thereabouts - and they were pretty poor in the beginning too), you know, the big one the Palestinians and Israelis still squabble over down there. There were some pretty strange rumours circulating about them already back in the day, and King Philip's little propaganda campaigns or the fact they weren't all that liked in many circles didn't help any. They met a pretty dramatic end under fairly shady circumstances, unlike for example the Johannites or Teutonics who more like slowly and ignomiously decayed (Napoleon dismantled the sorry remnants of the former still puttering about on Malta on his way to Egypt, whereas the latter first became a state of their own and were then gradually gobbled up by Lithuanians, Poles, Swedes and Russians) or the numerous Spanish ones that seem to have virtually disappeared once the Reconquista was over. Died in style, as it were. Oh yeah, and while we're at it the Assassins apparently feature prominently as the builders of the Illuminati or somesuch...

Plus they've a cool and catchy name to go around.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't think that Freemasonry is connected to Templars. I think Freemasry is connected to Mithraism. An Eastern cult ruthlessly supressed by Roman Christianity in the 4th Century AD.

[Watchman]

By what I know of it it's connected to the engineers, architects etcetera who made a living building cathedrals during the Middle Ages. I know enough basics of how people thought back then to see how the symbolism of building "houses to God" would not be lost to a corps of already fairly esoteric specialists who no doubt networked heavily across the whole continent.

That the rich and mighty seem to later have partially taken over the show for their own purposes (as if such people didn't otherwise gather into exclusive, snobby societies and "old boys' clubs" to hobnob and network...) is somewhat beside the point. Such people and the people who want to become like them have always had a marked tendency to cluster and seek each other out, no doubt at least partly in hopes of pursuing possible common interests, seeking "partners in crime" in private or just hang around their elevated peers and feel real good.

[Afonso I of Portugal]

I've heard so, yes. However, I've also heard some of these ships actually reached the America's. Most importantly, however, it seems this ship contained the order's treasure (see "National treasure"? ). I personally find it hard to believe this were to be the Holy Grail itself. (also, that leaves the question: what ís the Holy Grail, or, better still, is it a person instead of an object?)

I'd say so too. It would certainly explain why indeed the Portuguese and Scottish kings didn't believe these accusations

Concerning to the Portuguese, it's true that King Dinis didn't believe those accusations of heresy, and he simply founded the Order Of Christ to replace the portuguese templars and many others knights who fled to Tomar. However, the Kings of Portugal have many reasons to support the Templars, because:
- Their presence dates back to 1128, when Portugal was just a county of Leon-Castile.
- The Templars support Portugal's independence in 1143.
- They were given extensive possessions and castles in frontier land, during the "reconquista".
- They built the Tomar Castle, one of their major strongholds in Europe.
(see "Order of Christ" in wikipedia)

Part of Templar fleet did reached portuguese ports, however the order's treasure seems to have disapeared...or not?
In fact, the first ages of the Order Of Christ were indeed prosperous and they launched the first great wave of expeditions of the period of discoveries; with templar ships and money? well, there are no conclusive evidences and we just may guess...

[Watchman]

Not with the ships, that's for sure. The Templars got wiped in very early 1300s; the Discoveries started in mid-late 1400s and really only got underway a while late.

During the time inbetween there were some pretty major advances in European shipbuilding.

[Templar Knight]

Templars discover America?

http://www.templarhistory.com/1578633176.html

After the Pope officially disbanded the Knight Templar organisation, those remaining fled principally to Scotland and Portugal, two nations who refused to accept the Pope's authority. Most of their confiscated wealth was redistributed to another religious order, the Hospitalliers of St John, thought to be linked with the Vatican.

The secrecy of the order has intrigued many, as inconclusive evidence points to holy artifacts such as the Holy Grail, and the Ark of the Covenant and whatever else they may have found under the Temple of Solomon. Treasure hunters have tunneled 200 feet deep into the recesses of Oak Island in search of what may be the final resting place of the Templar legacy. Did they discover America before Columbus (who flew the Templars red cross on his sails) and take an instrumental part in the American independence? (Most of the American leaders of the time were Masons) Did the Templars hold an ancient knowledge, and did they find powerful sacred artifacts that caused their swift rise?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A203554

[Franconicus]

Quite unlikely, our laws were re-made from scratch in 1789, and I doubt someone came in and said
"Hey guys, do you remember these damn templar knights that disapeared a while ago ? Yeah ? Cause I think we should ban them aswell".

I'm still waiting for evidences that the templars still exist...

And the "the Grail is Jesus' son theory" is known since the beginning of the middle age I think. And cathar believed to that faithfully.

There is a tale that say when the king was killed someone of the crowd called: REVENGE FOR JACQUES DE MOLAY.

Did you ever read the book of UMBERTO ECCO?

[Afonso I of Portugal]

Not with the ships, that's for sure. The Templars got wiped in very early 1300s; the Discoveries started in mid-late 1400s and really only got underway a while late.

During the time inbetween there were some pretty major advances in European shipbuilding.

Yes that's true, but i didn't say that the templar ships used in 1312 were the same used one century after! their tecnology could be used and improved.

In Portugal and Spain, the religious-military orders were major sponsors of the first expeditions to overseas, improving shipbuilding. For example, the caravel, was a mercant ship used mainly in the mediterranean, but was readapt with new sails and equipment to navigate in the atlantic.

I think the huge crosses in sails used by Portuguese (cross of Christ) and Spanish (Cross of Santiago) ships in the beginning of the discoveries could be a sign of their sponsor or a sign to be recognized by fellow christians in distant lands.

[Ironside]

For example, one of the order's memebers confessed new members were made to defile the bible and spit on the cross during their inauguration. This was supposed to prepare them against Muslim torture, he said. This explanation sounds highly dubious to me.

As all confessions came out of torture and was then later denied, those confessions are of questionalbe quality.

About them who fled to Scotland, they merged with the Hospitaliers there, the Hospitaliers got even a name change to the Templars of St John or something like that.

I think the huge crosses in sails used by Portuguese (cross of Christ) and Spanish (Cross of Santiago) ships in the beginning of the discoveries could be a sign of their sponsor or a sign to be recognized by fellow christians in distant lands.

It worth noticing that the reconquista was still more of less active at the time. Grenada fell 1492.