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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Were the Indians really noble ?

    Well we alweays here how noble and in touch with nature the idians were and that it the fault of the evil whiteman that their almost gone now. Heres another take on the matter.

    Abolishing America (contd.): Thoughts On the Guilt Lobby On The Anniversary Of Columbus’ Discovery

    By L. Neil Smith

    [VDARE note: Award-winning science fiction novelist and arch-libertarian L. Neil Smith says he is the libertarian movement’s “most prolific and widely-published living writer.”It may be true. You can buy copies of his books in stores or online from his website. His latest, The American Zone, soon to be published by Tor, is unfortunately prescient: it involves a terrorist attack on a mile-high building.

    In honor of Christopher Columbus, who Eurocentrically “discovered” America on this day in 1492, we run Smith’s thoughts on the racial guilt lobby. Of course, it also shows how tolerant we are because Smith says he’s in favor of open immigration –but hedged about with crippling conditions. We don’t agree anyway, but it’s just a phase some thinking libertarians go through.

    Note Smith can definitely say “I told you so” on one point: long before September 11th, he was calling for Americans to be allowed to carry guns on planes. ]

    My nearly infinite tolerance for the foolishness of my fellow humans sometimes exhausts itself, and I find myself making statements that begin, “It’s a good thing I’m a libertarian, because otherwise ...”

    One thing that gets to me is the trendy notion that descendents of slaves ought to be paid reparations by descendents of those who owned slaves—one of the dumber ideas ever to boil out of the repellent porridge professional parasites call their brains.

    Some of my ancestors from the Old South owned slaves. My mom tells stories of her great-grandmother’s “mammy”, a role we associate today with young Irish or Hispanic immigrants working at minimum wage. Others were slaves themselves, Polish serfs who belonged to whatever genetically impoverished Cossack claimed the land they farmed—imagine Fiddler on the Roof being Catholic instead of Jewish. They wisely “followed the Drinking Gourd” to Pennsylvania, where they clawed coal from the ground under conditions that speak eloquently of how they’d hated being some inbred aristo’s property.

    If this reparations stuff ever gets beyond mere salivation and I’m forced to fork over, to my great-great-grandmother’s mammy’s great-great-grandchildren, hard-earned wealth they don’t deserve, for something I never did, does that mean some Russian owes me, or is this just a black thing? This nation literally tore itself to pieces trying (so many believed) to end slavery. If reparations are called for, they were paid in full by 620,000 victims of the War Between the States.

    Another thing that gets to me: there are few Star Trek fans more enthusiastic than I am. Despite its drooling Utopian fascism, it’s held my interest from the first time Jim Kirk told us the stardate to the moment Voyager came home. But one thing that never fails to blow my cork is the collection of stupidities represented by Kathryn Janeway’s “native American” first officer.

    I’ve never chosen my friends—or enemies—on the basis of their color. A Canadian magazine once accused me of racism. I extracted their intestines as they watched and broiled them over the World Wide Web. I choose my friends—and enemies—on the basis of their commitment to the Bill of Rights, the Non-Aggression Principle, and above all, to reason.

    I even favor open immigration, provided that the third of America—half the west—held illegally as “public land” is surrendered to individual ownership; welfare is extirpated root and branch; and newcomers are required to sign off on the first ten amendments to the Constitution. (If they later advocate violations of those amendments ... well, it’s a good thing I’m a libertarian.)

    So spare me the bilge about the wisdom and spirituality of those it’s politically incorrect to call Indians. If I hear the words “spirit guide” or “vision quest” once more, especially on a series about a 24th century interstellar spacecraft, I’m going into warp myself—backwards—propelled by vomit. The Soviets collapsed because their ideas—Hegel, Marx, Lysenko—were crap. It may be impolite to say so, but more than Springfields or Winchesters, it was the nonsense Indians believed that defeated them.

    These were folks so “close to nature” they ran herds of buffalo off a cliff so they could butcher a couple for lunch, so “in tune with the environment” that, despite claims they “used all of the buffalo” (something packing plants are vilified for), their pre-Columbian movements about the continent can be tracked by following a trail of their garbage heaps.

    True, my ancestors—the slaveholders; the serfs hadn’t arrived yet—weren’t nice to Indians. They gave them blankets from smallpox fatalities. It’s claimed my folks taught theirs to scalp enemies. But even if that’s true, it’s also true that although Robert Heinlein taught me, in a couple of books, how to cut up a dead body in a bathtub, I’ve never felt obliged to try it.

    Moral enlightenment is an invention, as surely as penicillin, plutonium, and the Pentium. If we don’t condemn our ancestors because they died like flies from diseases that could have been cured with a spoonful of bread mold, or because, lacking nuclear power, they burned every tree in Europe, or because, failing to create word processors, a million monks got writer’s cramp, does it make sense to revile them for not having stumbled across the Non-Aggression Principle?

    If there’s anything more insane than holding ancient people to moral standards that hadn’t been invented yet, it’s holding modern people responsible for the acts of ancients who didn’t know any better. Next time I run into one of those professional “Native American” crybabies, it’s going to be hard to resist grabbing him by the squash blossoms and saying, “My ancestors and yours both believed in the right of conquest. Yours lost. Get over it!”

    A final embarrassing historic—make that prehistoric—fact is that they’re not native Americans. There are no native Americans. They may have arrived here thousands of years before my ancestors, but there’s growing evidence that somebody got here first.

    Ancient remains have been found in the Pacific Northwest, the Carolinas, and South America, of non-Indian people. Attempting to preserve its victim status, today’s Indian political establishment struggles to claim these remains and literally bury them before they get full scientific scrutiny. Maybe what I oughta yell at Mr. Squash Blossom is, “What did you do to Folsom Man, you genocidal monster?”

    What I’d rather do—what anybody rational would rather do—is learn from the past and set it aside. It has much to teach us—it informed the Founding Fathers—and heaven knows we have much to learn from it. But we aren’t going to learn anything from spirit guides or racial demagogues.

    That’s why it’s imperative to tell the Guilt Lobby to get a life, and convince every senator, congressman, legislator, councilman, commissioner, and dogcatcher that any who vote for reparations will be found the next morning – well, won’t be re-elected.

    L. NEIL SMITH is the award-winning author of more than 20 novels about individual liberty and the right to own and carry weapons. You can read his essays, or check out his books at the Webley Page.

    October 12, 2001
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  2. #2
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    I've been reading John Keegan's The Book of War. It's a compilation of 2000 years of military writings. In the section concerning the American Indians, the writer describes horrendous torures used by one tribe against the other. Really nasty. Being tied down and covered with red hot axe heads and things like that. Yeesh.

    Yet during the night, the victims were cared for with a strange gentleness. At least until the next day's tortures. Very odd.
    Unto each good man a good dog

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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    One word: Scalping.

  4. #4
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    One word: Scalping.
    Not an exclusively Native American practice:
    http://home.comcast.net/~burokerl/scalping.htm

    For some North American tribes, a European tradition, adopted.

    And a translation:

    Gawain of Orkeney wrote: Well we alweays here how noble and in touch with nature the idians were and that it the fault of the evil whiteman that their almost gone now. Heres another take on the matter

    "Well, we always hear how noble and in-touch with nature the Indians were, and that it (is) the fault of the evil whiteman that they're almost gone now. Here's another take on the matter."
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 07-01-2005 at 02:12.
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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    One word: Scalping.
    Not limited to Native Americans. The British and Americans would actually PAY bounty hunters for Native scalps.

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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    Quote Originally Posted by evil_maniac from mars
    Not limited to Native Americans. The British and Americans would actually PAY bounty hunters for Native scalps.
    Your slightly off on this one you missed a country- Both the English and French paid bounty to Native American's for the scalps of the opposing side.

    White Americans - paid money also for scalps

    The Spanish - well they were actually a little worse then either Britian or France.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    Scalping was no by limited to Native Americans. Turks (at least before Islam, not as sure after their conversion) took the hair of their enemies, as did other cultures, especially those of the steppe.
    Also, many frontiersmen took scalps as well.
    And he speaks of buffalo jumps. First of all, only the Plains Indians did so, so it's not like all tribes did. Second of all, I'm pretty sure they only did that before they got horses. Once they got horses, I'm pretty sure they started killing only those that were needed.

    It may be impolite to say so, but more than Springfields or Winchesters, it was the nonsense Indians believed that defeated them.
    How so? And I see nothing to suggest it was any more nonsense than Christianity or Judiasim or Islam. Or were they speaking of the nonsense that they believed in when they assumed the American government would uphold their treaties?
    Last edited by Steppe Merc; 07-01-2005 at 02:05.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    And he speaks of buffalo jumps. First of all, only the Plains Indians did so, so it's not like all tribes did. Second of all, I'm pretty sure they only did that before they got horses. Once they got horses, I'm pretty sure they started killing only those that were needed.
    And you would be wrong - the Plains Indians also ran them off of cliffs after they got horses. Buffalo were extremely hard to kill with Bows and Arrows, and Spears. Makes for good Hollywood pictures though doesn't.

    How so? And I see nothing to suggest it was any more nonsense than Christianity or Judiasim or Islam. Or were they speaking of the nonsense that they believed in when they assumed the American government would uphold their treaties?
    I suggest reading a book entitled The Long Death it will give you a little more insite into the conflicts surrounding the Plains Indians
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    I was wrong, then. I wasn't entirely sure. And I'll check out that book, I've been looking for a book actually.

    edit: Just out of curosity, do you happen to know if they still ran them off cliffs after they started to aquire firearms? Probably so, but I was just wondering if anyone knows...
    Though it does speak to their hunting practices that they were running bison off of cliffs for many years (I believe since they migrated to the area, though I may be wrong), while the hunting of bison by whites wiped them out far quicker, especially since the fur traders just skinned them.
    Last edited by Steppe Merc; 07-01-2005 at 02:15.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

  10. #10
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    We will rid you of this evil revisionist history these liberals have been feeding you all these years. Theres hope for you yet.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    Heh, I don't know much of the history of the Plains Indians, but I'd be really interested in the true history of them, from both sides of the story. Just as long as it isn't conservative revisionist history.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

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    Member Member KafirChobee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    We will rid you of this evil revisionist history these liberals have been feeding you all these years. Theres hope for you yet.
    Is always a treat to see so many back slapping revisionist historians grab one anothers asses.

    Now, can we talk reality? Or, do we continue with this lovefest of yours? Not. America was (is) the first modern day (in terms of time) genecide. It is estimated that 8 million indigenace natives were murdered by their invaders - the new Americans. Now, I confess my ancestors were involved in a part of it (fought in the "Revolution". you know?). They settled Kentucky and Southern Illinios. But, they did so out of greed and ignorance. Not out of some noble purpose or vision of America.

    It is disgusting to me to think there are some whom still honor the autrocities of that era. That some how console themselves with the idea that the American Indian deserved being betrayed, deceived, slaughtered, and that the stealing of their lands gives any honor to those that did it. [btw, one of my ancestors married a indian girl - back around 1800 - not that it has anything to do with your lovefest]

    The Conservative Club, somehow never ceases to amaze me. How, they conceal their prejudices by using history as an example of the righteousness to their cause. How, they perceive that any that oppose them are wrong simply because they are human - that their opponents contend that all humans are equal (and always have been) must drive them crazy.

    How unfair. How ignorant. How absolutely bigoted is this thread. Still, it proves a point, ignorance ... breeds ignorance. Showing compassion to the past would breed it for the future. Can't have that. Stay dumb, be dumb, and believe all that others tell you that conforms with what you have previously been told. Yep, makes alot of sense. Is easier that way. Why challenge anything When it is simply easier to blend in with the guys you like .. sort of.

    Were the Indians Noble? They still are. They survived the genecide. That some tribes are now prospouring is what pisses the editorial above off.

    As for starting a thread like this? Only a person that believes in genocide would do it. Only a person so just in his own contempt for those that beleive differently from him and his confidence that those of like minds would defend him - would post such an absurd assumption.

    Noble Indians? Damn right!

    To forgive bad deeds is Christian; to reward them is Republican. 'MC' Rove
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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    I was wrong, then. I wasn't entirely sure. And I'll check out that book, I've been looking for a book actually.

    edit: Just out of curosity, do you happen to know if they still ran them off cliffs after they started to aquire firearms? Probably so, but I was just wondering if anyone knows...
    Though it does speak to their hunting practices that they were running bison off of cliffs for many years (I believe since they migrated to the area, though I may be wrong), while the hunting of bison by whites wiped them out far quicker, especially since the fur traders just skinned them.
    From what I have read - damn what is the past tense for read, I can't remember - most of the major herds where decimanted before the Plains Indians had the firearms necessary to overhunt them. But yes I believe once they accquired firearms they used them instead of running them off of cliffs.

    Now don't get me wrong many tribes did indeed use horses and spears to kill the buffalo on the plains - but it was extremely hard and dangerous.

    There is a cliff in Montana that I know of was used up until a whiteman set up his ranch there in the the 1870's. As a child we went there to collect arrowheads and flint knives that were spread across the site. The ranch foreman said there was records from the beginning of the ranch that indicited that it was used as late as then because of the journel entries.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  14. #14
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    Now don't get me wrong many tribes did indeed use horses and spears to kill the buffalo on the plains - but it was extremely hard and dangerous.
    Heres a little something people forget. No whiteman no horse no guns. Makes hunting buffalo a whole bunch easier for everyone including the indians. They never had it so good for a short while
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    Member Member Productivity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    From what I have read - damn what is the past tense for read, I can't remember
    "read", although it is pronounced red.

    Looks for Pindar et al. to come in and start correcting him.

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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    I was wrong, then. I wasn't entirely sure. And I'll check out that book, I've been looking for a book actually.
    Here is all the information on the book

    The Long Death: The Last Days of the Plains Indian by Ralph K. Andrist.

    A pretty honest book that deals with the subject from a primarily Native American Perpective.

    Unlike the accusation that Kafir just made - some of us know our history both the good and the bad - however it seems someone can't get over his own politics to have an honest discussion on the subject. Really sad.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  17. #17
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the Indians really noble ?

    I think the Native Indians where just plain Americans. They believed they where better and stronger than everyone else and refused diplomacy.......

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