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Thread: Musketeers vs. Naginata Cavalry: who will be the victor

  1. #1

    Default Musketeers vs. Naginata Cavalry: who will be the victor

    Before the game rudely booted me off the server and didn’t allow me to log back on for a while somebody had asked me this question: can a unit of h3 Musketeers beat an h2 unit of charging Naginata Cavalry on flat (or semi-flat) ground? Naturally I said ‘no.’ It goes against my military logic to believe that something coming in that fast can be stopped by a one volley of shot. Maybe if the chargers were infantry, then the gunners would be fire two volleys, one at close range, and break the charger’s moral, but not against cavalry. My questioner assured me that they can. He offered we play a test game to prove the truth, but unfortunately the game kicked me off right then. What do you guys think? Is it possible?

    I also noticed that you guys include a lot of Muskets in your armies, usually 4 units. Why so? I know that they nearly never run out of ammo, scare people, and over time can do quite a bit of damage (at least the kills are actually noticeable, unlike in Medieval), but they can also go very wrong. What if it rains? Your investment will be rendered useless, providing you only with some of the crappiest hand-to-hand fighters in the game. Why not Samurai Archers. They’re more expensive, but they have a higher accuracy and get rid of their ammo faster (more kills in last time), not to mention better hand-to-hand fighters and can shoot over friendly units. One of these days I’m going to buy all Samurai Archers and make sure that we’re played on a rainy day.

  2. #2
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musketeers vs. Naginata Cavalry: who will be the victor

    1 unit of H2 muskies vs. 1 unit H2 NC? Well, I think it depends on how many NC are killed before they impact the muskies. H2 is low for NC on MP (H3 or 4 is most common)--particularly if you plan to use them to raid muskets. H3 muskets are on the high side as well; usually it's new folks who bring H3. Most "vets" spend the koku elsewhere and bring H2, except under specific circumstances that warrant otherwise.

    This scenario isn't really demonstrative though. The power of muskets lies in a front line of them, supported closely (but not too closely) by an infantry line and flank cavalry. In this setup they are formidable. The additional troops nearby provide much-needed protection and morale boost.

    Rain will not render muskets useless in MI as it did in the original Shogun. It does severely reduce their effectiveness, however. Arquebusiers are rendered useless.

    As you've already pointed out, Archers run out of ammo (and they seem to do so very fast im MP unless you micromanage their fire). They also have a lower armor stat than muskets if I'm not mistaken. Furthermore, units with armor resist arrows much better than they do bullets (even the heaviest armor has only a marginal effect in stopping bullets). The biggest weapon of muskets is their effect on morale--and rain doesn't reduce this. As I put forward in a previous thread, it's breaking enemy morale that wins most games. Hence, the extreme value of muskets. A -6 morale penalty rocks over a -2 penalty (bullets vs. arrows, etc.).

    I use archers (usually 2 at H0, sometimes H1) to compliment my musket line (4 at H2) in several armies that emphasize the ranged war. One in particular, which is one of Kansuke's competition armies, is amazing effective in most situations (but more so under his command than mine ... ). The archers do well on the flanks of the ranged line, usually doubling the enemy's flank muskets or dealing with harrassing CA. When their arrows have been expended, I withdraw them behind my infantry line to fill gaps or flank during the main melee, or use them to soak up any arrow fire (not musket fire--that's pointless because of the large amount of ammunition that muskets have).

    Bring on your archers m8 (just remember most of us play with a 4 max rule ...). The best way to learn MP is through dialog, experimentation and applied experience.
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  3. #3
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musketeers vs. Naginata Cavalry: who will be the victor

    I object to the "unlike in Medieval" part. Try getting a unit of arqubuses next to an already-engaged heavy armour unit. Then you see damage. Like once I had 60 arquebusers behind a English King with 15 Royal Knights in his bodyguard. 1 volley, all 15 dead.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Musketeers vs. Naginata Cavalry: who will be the victor

    A unit of nag cav will indeed defeat a unit of muskuts, but the point is that you have your own spears and cav behind your muskets. On a rainy day muskets will still beat archers. The archers will get the musket unit down to half strength pretty fast but then they will be out of ammo and the muskets will still have a lot of time to destroy the archer unit.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Musketeers vs. Naginata Cavalry: who will be the victor

    Yes one on one, the NC can beat the muskets, but, when the NC try to charge a musket which is backed by several supporting units, the NC gets an added morale penalty because it's in the proximity of many enemy units. That morale penalty when combined with the morale penalty due to casualties from a volley plus the morale penalty from being fired upon by guns will probably rout the NC. This was an oversight when doing the testing for v1.02 since the preliminary balancing was done with one on one matchups, and the guns were increased in power late in the testing when there wasn't enough time to do proper battle testing. In addition, we forgot to lower the defend value of the muskets, so, when they are used in hold formation, they don't break fast enough even if the NC manage to make contact. The intent was to make HC and NC cav defeat guns quite easily and they did up until the last 3 days of the v1.02 beta, but that's not how the v1.02 stat plays. The effectiveness per volley of the muskets in moderate rain is how it was supposed to be in dry weather. Moderate rain produces 50% misfires. Light rain produces 25% misfires and heavy rain 75% misfires.

    The muskets are overly effective. A single unit can kill 300 men. That's 5 enemy units which is way too much for the game. The ammo was reduced in v1.02, but should have been reduced by half again, and the casualties per volley should be half of what it is. That would bring the killing potential at max range down to 75 infantry which is much more reasonable in a game with a unit size of 60, and it would bring the muskets into more of a balance with archers. I tried many times to use archers against guns in v1.02, but they aren't effective even if the archers are kept in loose formation.

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