Cult or Religion

[King of Atlantis]

At twcenter, there is an intereting debate about wheter cults and religions are the same thing. I personally believe that cults are religions that tend to be violent. Others would argue that accepted religions can be much more dangerous than cults. So, what are your guys opinions?

[Lemur]

A cult is a religion without political power.

[King of Atlantis]

hmmmm... that is actually probably a perfect answer

[Big_John]

A cult is a religion without political power.

that's about the weight of it. however, semantically speaking, a cult is a collection of people, whereas a religion is a belief system. a cult is pretty much always (and may be defined as?) a group of people united by a belief system. now, one can certainly define a religion as a belief system, and as such, cult members practice some form of religion.

also probably part of the practical definition of a cult is the situation that the beliefs of the cult are in some way antithetical and/or threatening to the society under which they exist. this goes back to the "without political power" observation. in order for any ol' like-minded gathering to be considered a cult, in the pejorative sense of the word, it needs to gain the attention (read: ire) of the powers-that-be. normally this is done by the cult trying to co-opt or disrupt the power of a society over the cult members (e.g. maintaining massive arms stockpiles, not paying taxes, drinking the poison kool-aid).

[Don Corleone]

Duh, I not so smart as yous guys. I still believe in God. I do as told. I can't say good or bad. Sorry, maybe my boss, uh, minister can tell you what I think.

There, does that fit your smug little definition of what we crackpot neanderthals that are still stupid enough to believe in God sound like? Cause I do, and I find the question, as well as the responses thus far, a touch on the insulting side. If you can't distinguish between Heaven's Gate and Mother Theresa, there's nothing else I can say then what I did at the beginning.

[PanzerJaeger]

I see them in terms of numbers. A religion has hundreds of years and billions of people behind it. A cult is relatively new (usually but not always), but always has a small number of members - compared to a religion.

[Lemur]

I find the question, as well as the responses thus far, a touch on the insulting side. If you can't distinguish between Heaven's Gate and Mother Theresa, there's nothing else I can say then what I did at the beginning.

I had no intention of insulting anyone with my answer. In fact, I was trying to come up with the most neutral response possible.

Until Constantine converted, Christianity was seen as a cult. Afterwards, it was a religion. There's no assessment there of how true or untrue its core beliefs may be -- that's for the faithful to decide.

From your perspective, isn't it possible for a religion to be just as wrong as a cult? Meaning to say, if the only path to salvation leads through Jesus Christ, isn't an established religion such as Buddhism as theologically wrong as, say, Scientology? Or as wrong as Heaven's Gate, to use your example.

If you want to discuss which religions are theologically and spiritually sound, that's a different subject. King of Atlantis was asking for a distinction between "cult" and "religion." Pretty straightforward.

[Don Corleone]

Well, if I'm being a bit thin skinned, I apologize. Hearing religion and cults equated tends to get my goat.

Has it ever dawned on you wizards of philosophy that perhaps the answer lay in the results achieved? When was the last time a cult opened a soup kitchen, or started a home for unwed mothers, or a battered woman's shelter? Or an AIDS clinic? Most mainstream religions are proud of the fact that they offer ministries in all of these areas and more.

[Lemur]

Hearing religion and cults equated tends to get my goat.

"Cult" just means that a group has a religious belief and no political power. That's all it means. It's seen as a negative word because it's applied to every nutjob with a compound and some Kool Aid. But remember, every religion would have been considered a cult when it began. Not by believers, of course, but by society at large.

No group would ever label itself a "cult" -- to do so implies that they're on the fringe. It's a term used by society at large to diminish people with minority religious views. As soon as that group gets some money and some clout, hey presto, they're a religion.

People with jungle compounds and persecution complexes do form cults, correct. But they're not the only ones -- any (relatively) powerless religion falls into the category.

Would somebody with better Latin than mine step in here? Didn't the Romans repeatedly refer to Christianity as a "slave cult," since it preached the socially unacceptable idea that slaves had souls and could be saved? Again, the early Christians would not have accepted the label, but that hardly matters -- it's a term the established and powerful get to use against the upstart and powerless.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

"Cult" just means that a group has a religious belief and no political power.

I think that pretty much sums it up. Most religions are considered cults untill they are accepted by the masses. In fact didnt ancient religions have cults within them just as we have different sects of Chritains , Jews and Muslims?

[King of Atlantis]

Don, i didnt mean for this topic to offend you(im christian )

The argument at twcenter was that some people were considering any religion a cult. I always think of a cult as something that ends in mass suiccide and i dont know any religions that teach this.

[Big_John]

Don, i didnt mean for this topic to offend you(im christian )

The argument at twcenter was that some people were considering any religion a cult. I always think of a cult as something that ends in mass suiccide and i dont know any religions that teach this.

well, it would be incorrect to assume everything we define as a cult practices ritual- and/or mass-suicides, or conversely, to assume that such practices are confined to "cults". famous examples like the "people's temple" or "heaven's gate" justifiably get all the news, but one could argue that luddite sects of 'non-cult' religions (e.g. the amish) are certainly responsible for many deaths due to negligence at least. also, martyrdom, a very specific class of suicide is certainly acceptable in many religions, iirc.

[King of Atlantis]

I know not everything classified as a cult is bad, but i think religions like that should be considered religions, instead of cults.

[Samurai Waki]

I always though that Religion was the formation of a massive spiritual movement and a cult was formation of a radical spiritual movement.

I.E. We Can all Agree Money is Good (religion) but all of our money should be spent on making the infrastructure of our society better (cult)

[Colovion]

After reading numerous books about secret societies, cults and being raised in a Christian home all my life I have come to the following conclusion:

People want to belong to something. People enjoy organisations of people; in that we strive to communicate in more than verbal and physical ways. People like power. People like to think about supreme beings and spiritual entities because it gives them a feeling of comfort.

it's all the same basket - people being humans and using their minds to find other descriptions for the goings-on of the environment they inhabit. Esentially all religions, cults and secret societies have the same ideologies and they are listed above.

I don't believe that religion can be sectionalized into the constraints of modern religious doctrine, I feel it's on a much broader spectrum.

[Beirut]

As I've mentioned several times, I work with Jehova's Witnesses and I know plenty more of them. They most certainly do not consider themselves a cult. They do consider the Catholic church a cult. While I find the Jehova's have many cultish practices, I find the Catholics have just as many if not more.

They are both cults and religions. In reality, what is the difference? They all adhere to one simple and overwhelming belief; I'm right and you're worng.

[Duke Malcolm]

Tempted by the offer of free food, I went to a popular cult church just along the road, called the Gate. I left after half an hour for fear that I would be brain washed and forced to join a mass suicide... so I think I'll send an e-mail to the Inquisition...

[Big_John]

hey man, free food is free food.

[Pindar]

In academic circles cult can refer to an emerging sect or outgrowth of an established devotional system. Sect would be the more common usage.

In common parlance cult is a pejorative typically used to deride a belief system. The idea being the system is somehow dangerous. Cults are typically seen as containing at least the following traits: a charismatic leader, tendencies to remove from or disassociate with society at large, coercive conversion techniques which include difficulty in leaving the group and financial strains on membership. The term remains a fairly subjective label however.

[bmolsson]

In academic circles cult can refer to an emerging sect or outgrowth of an established devotional system. Sect would be the more common usage.

In common parlance cult is a pejorative typically used to deride a belief system. The idea being the system is somehow dangerous. Cults are typically seen as containing at least the following traits: a charismatic leader, tendencies to remove from or disassociate with society at large, coercive conversion techniques which include difficulty in leaving the group and financial strains on membership. The term remains a fairly subjective label however.

A religion only based on faith ??

[ichi]

I am part of a church, everyone else is part of a cult

[King of Atlantis]

you must have a small church then.

[Zalmoxis]

Guys, do you think if say Bush converts to some cult that has a million members, does that cult become a religion?

[bmolsson]

I am part of a church, everyone else is part of a cult

Are you a brick or something ??

[Navaros]

original poster has a good point

really, the word "cult" is usually just thrown around in order to denote a religion that is perceived to be evil. hence cult & religion are pretty much the same thing.

of course, that is only because the word "religion" has now become so skewed and lost it's credibility over the years as a direct result of all the cults who have "upgraded" their cult to "religion" status

[Quietus]

Jesus Christ was cult leader because of the status of christianity back then (as Lemurmia has already pointed). Just as George Washington was a rebel.

Personally, I believe all religion are still a cult since a lot of their "teachings", particularly on the 'afterlife', 'god', 'creation', 'praying' etc. has no basis for truth at all.

Lastly, Jesus Christ was patterned after another older religious figure, Zoroaster (or Zarathustra).

[King of Atlantis]

I really dont see jesus in common with any other figure. His teachings are far differnt from the teachings common of the day.

[Hurin_Rules]

Linguistically, cult can mean either the group of people or the belief system. The word itself derives from the past participle of the Latin 'colere' (to cultivate), cultus ('worship'). So semantically, there is very little difference between religion (derived from the Latin 'religio', meaning 'bond', i.e. that tied one to the Gods). Hence, as Pindar has noted, in academic circles the words are synonymous. It is not an insult there to call Christianity a cult.

Its hard to open an AIDS centre when you have no political power.

I would agree that the usage really depends on size of the cult/religion and the extent of its political power.

[Hurin_Rules]

I really dont see jesus in common with any other figure. His teachings are far differnt from the teachings common of the day.

I'd have to disagree with you there. The Manicheeans, Zoroastrians, Neoplatonists, Stoics and Hebrews of the day all had beliefs that were similar in many respects to Christianity; I mean that few of the ideas expressed by Jesus and his followers cannot also be found in one or another of the other religions of the day. Brotherhood of man? Stoics talked about that first. Logos and Holy Spirit? Again, talk to the Stoics. Messiah? Hebrew prophets. Monotheism? OT Jews. I don't know of any other prophet, on the other hand, who emphasized Love so heavily as Christ.

[ichi]

Are you a brick or something ??

I am the steeple (oh, and little stained glass window)