What are you thinking for TURKS

**The Wizard** · 07-02-2005, 23:23

The Turks (well the western ones as far as I know) are the nicest people of the Mediterranean.

~Wiz

**antisocialmunky** · 07-03-2005, 01:31

Kill everything.

**lilljonas** · 07-03-2005, 04:40

What I think of the Turks? Well, it's like a roller-coaster. Great military power with astonishing dynamics for a great while, but also one of the most degenerated nations ever at the fall of the Ottoman Empire. At the same time that it is one of the more secular places in the middle east, it is also a country of regular humanitarian catastrophies, with a pitch-black record of ethnical cleansing from even a couple of decades before the Armenian Holocaust which was on the same level of evil as the one that would later be performed by Nazi Germany, complete with mass gassing of children. Half of the armenian population of Turkey were massacred, it is considered the second largest and best documented genocide, and sadly, it's completely denied by the Turkish government. The holocaust in Germany was worse, but at least the germans have taken their share of the blame and undergone a collective catharsis afterwards, trying to come to terms with the bloody stains on their history. Turkey, however, hasn't. That, together with the continuous persecution of Kurds and other minorities makes modern day Turkey anything but a place to admire for me, you don't even have to throw in the facts that prisoners are tortured to death on a regular basis or the invasion of Cyprus. So yes, I got a bit surprised that anyone would call current Turkey "a great place". Guess they are not a kurd. Or an armenian. Or a greek-cypriot. Or a political dissident. Or...

So while I've met quite a few nice turks, current Turkey is far from something nice IMHO.

(great faction in MTW, though. Massed formations of troops that can both fire arrows and fight at least decently at melee makes for a kick-ass army, and they usually get great troops from their jihads. Also, the Middle East has some of the best territories when it comes to finances, giving them an easily achieved power base)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_holocaust
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds#In_Turkey

**Martok** · 07-03-2005, 08:11

My knowledge and opinion of the Turks is generally limited to the fact that they're fun to play as in Medieval, and that they should be crushed as quickly as possible if you're anyone else--especially the Eggies or the Byz.

**King Henry V** · 07-03-2005, 09:43

Being a Byzantophile, my historical opinion of them is not very good. However, I have never known any Turks.

**edyzmedieval** · 07-03-2005, 10:19

I'm also a Byzantophile, and I also have a quite bad opinion about the Turks....

But, I've met Turks, and they're friendly and hospitaller....

**Patron** · 07-03-2005, 12:32

I think the Egyptian caliphate was more awesome, they fought off the Mongols and built loads of universities and represented a large chunk of arabic culture. The Ottomans generally didn't do much for history, except play the colonisation game with the rest of europe and annoy eastern europeans. Militarily though they did great, they were the first to use cannons effectively, Janissaries and Sipahis are by far the most elite middle eastern troops that have ever existed and they started off as an obscure tribe which managed to tear down an empire and turn Byzantium into Turkey.

**caesar44** · 07-03-2005, 16:53

Originally Posted by The Wizard

The Turks (well the western ones as far as I know) are the nicest people of the Mediterranean.

~Wiz

Including the Maltese and the corsicans ?

**The Wizard** · 07-04-2005, 21:42

Originally Posted by caesar44

Including the Maltese and the corsicans ?

Never met them, so I am hesitant to include them in my not-quite-perfect opinion of certain Western Mediterranean peoples.

Advocatus Sanctis Sepulchris: I wholly disagree. The Byzantine Empire was a shadow, a very sad shadow, of its former self when the Ottomans launched the final assault upon it. When the Ottomans took over what had once been part of the ancient eastern Roman empire, they reinvigorated it in a way that the decrepid old empire never could have after 1204. There were men that were capable, willing and worthy -- Manuel II Palaeologus comes to mind almost immediately -- but they were simply unable.

Take into account what the beating heart of the old empire was: Constantinople. What was Constantinople in the late Byzantine empire? A mirror of the state of affairs. In that sense, its inhabitants numbered no more than 10,000, it was robbed of all trade, its people were demoralized and tired, and all the while, the nobles and other potentates of the city plotted ceaselessly over nothing -- i.e. whatever remained of the empire.

The Turks took that sad state of affairs and blew life into it. The city of Istanbul of the 16th century was one of the greatest cities in the world, just like it had been in past ages. The Turks created a beautiful culture with great interest in knowledge and the arts (although it must be said some arts were ignored, such as the composing of music). Istanbul may not be the greatest city in the world now (albeit it is one of the largest, and the only to span two continents), but it is a wonderful city and I prefer it to Rome, and find it equal to Rotterdam -- which is quite a feat.

~Wiz

**Idomeneas** · 07-04-2005, 22:08

Originally Posted by The Wizard

Never met them, so I am hesitant to include them in my not-quite-perfect opinion of certain Western Mediterranean peoples.

Advocatus Sanctis Sepulchris: I wholly disagree. The Byzantine Empire was a shadow, a very sad shadow, of its former self when the Ottomans launched the final assault upon it. When the Ottomans took over what had once been part of the ancient eastern Roman empire, they reinvigorated it in a way that the decrepid old empire never could have after 1204. There were men that were capable, willing and worthy -- Manuel II Palaeologus comes to mind almost immediately -- but they were simply unable.

Take into account what the beating heart of the old empire was: Constantinople. What was Constantinople in the late Byzantine empire? A mirror of the state of affairs. In that sense, its inhabitants numbered no more than 10,000, it was robbed of all trade, its people were demoralized and tired, and all the while, the nobles and other potentates of the city plotted ceaselessly over nothing -- i.e. whatever remained of the empire.

The Turks took that sad state of affairs and blew life into it. The city of Istanbul of the 16th century was one of the greatest cities in the world, just like it had been in past ages. The Turks created a beautiful culture with great interest in knowledge and the arts (although it must be said some arts were ignored, such as the composing of music). Istanbul may not be the greatest city in the world now (albeit it is one of the largest, and the only to span two continents), but it is a wonderful city and I prefer it to Rome, and find it equal to Rotterdam -- which is quite a feat.

~Wiz

nice bait

**Advo-san** · 07-05-2005, 14:01

Originally Posted by The Wizard

The Turks (well the western ones as far as I know) are the nicest people of the Mediterranean.

~Wiz

You should read some United Nations GA Resolutions, and then tell me whether the Turks are the nicest people on the mediterrainian.. Or you can ask ask the Cypriots.. Boy, do they know turkish kindness.....

**The Wizard** · 07-05-2005, 15:40

You obviously don't know any Turks. Do I care much for their politics? Yes, enough to be very careful in regard of their wanting to enter the EU. But do I care enough for their politics to point out each and every Turk as barbaric and evil? No.

Open your eyes, if you dare to -- I know Turks from both the west (Edirne, Istanbul) and from the east (Trabzon); developed Turkey (west) and undeveloped, agricultural Turkey (Anadolu, Trabzon, east); and I can easily say they beat any other Mediterranean people hands down, and I know. They just have that great South American latino vibe that no other Mediterranean people has. And, oh, I've lived in South America and the Caribbean half my life, hell, I was born there, so I know what a latino vibe is.

Please, do not be biased towards people from another culture. It is the lack of this which puts Turks on number one amongst Mediterraneans for me. Although it must be said that Turks from the country (Anadolu, Trabzon) are far more prone to such activity than Turks from the western, developed part of Turkey.

Life is too short to spend hating people based on prejudice rather than experience, my friend.

The historical debate will come later... I have a birthday to enjoy and an EB preview to post first.

~Wiz

**Steppe Merc** · 07-05-2005, 16:53

Have no doubt, turkish dresscode was Arabian-style, their stateship Byzantine-made, their fighting skills kurdish-powered (remember Saladin).

Dresscode, incorrect. Most Turks continued to wear the kaftan that they wore on the steppe, and their armor was also steppe style. Some of the upper classes adopted Arabic styles, but most of the horsearchers would have dressed the same as their brethren still on the steppe.
Statesmenship, well each Turkish government was different. As for the Kurds, no way in hell. The Turks were excellent warriors, and again, not all moved into Asia Minor! They were excellent warriors before Sala Al Hadin took over for a brief time, and continued to be. I don't know how the hell the Kurds have much of anything to do with the Turk's military powers...
And I have never understood why people are so close minded about the history of a piece of land that they live on.

**Advo-san** · 07-06-2005, 12:10

Originally Posted by The Wizard

You obviously don't know any Turks. Do I care much for their politics? Yes, enough to be very careful in regard of their wanting to enter the EU. But do I care enough for their politics to point out each and every Turk as barbaric and evil? No.

Open your eyes, if you dare to -- I know Turks from both the west (Edirne, Istanbul) and from the east (Trabzon); developed Turkey (west) and undeveloped, agricultural Turkey (Anadolu, Trabzon, east); and I can easily say they beat any other Mediterranean people hands down, and I know. They just have that great South American latino vibe that no other Mediterranean people has. And, oh, I've lived in South America and the Caribbean half my life, hell, I was born there, so I know what a latino vibe is.

Please, do not be biased towards people from another culture. It is the lack of this which puts Turks on number one amongst Mediterraneans for me. Although it must be said that Turks from the country (Anadolu, Trabzon) are far more prone to such activity than Turks from the western, developed part of Turkey.

Life is too short to spend hating people based on prejudice rather than experience, my friend.

The historical debate will come later... I have a birthday to enjoy and an EB preview to post first.

~Wiz

How can u be so sure I don't know any Turks? The last 4 years I ve been 5 times in Turkey, not that this is any of your business, and I met a bunch of them.
U obviously don't know what the words invasion, occupation army, refugees, violation of international law and human rights mean. For you "this is all politics"; well it is not. It is every-day life for 200.000 Cypriots, not to mention Kurds and Armenians, and you 're talking about "latino-vibe" s***. As long as they are latino, they are fine people, is that so? Even though most of them, not all of them, agree with northern cyprus occupation. And what do you say about this? "Je m'en fou, this is all politics, they are latino, let's party!!"

I m not debating any longer with a man who thinks latino-vibe does good for all wrong. Or thinks that another nation's suffering is "JUST politics", for crying out loud....

**Advo-san** · 07-06-2005, 12:12

Originally Posted by The Wizard

You obviously don't know any Turks. Do I care much for their politics? Yes, enough to be very careful in regard of their wanting to enter the EU. But do I care enough for their politics to point out each and every Turk as barbaric and evil? No.

Open your eyes, if you dare to -- I know Turks from both the west (Edirne, Istanbul) and from the east (Trabzon); developed Turkey (west) and undeveloped, agricultural Turkey (Anadolu, Trabzon, east); and I can easily say they beat any other Mediterranean people hands down, and I know. They just have that great South American latino vibe that no other Mediterranean people has. And, oh, I've lived in South America and the Caribbean half my life, hell, I was born there, so I know what a latino vibe is.

Please, do not be biased towards people from another culture. It is the lack of this which puts Turks on number one amongst Mediterraneans for me. Although it must be said that Turks from the country (Anadolu, Trabzon) are far more prone to such activity than Turks from the western, developed part of Turkey.

Life is too short to spend hating people based on prejudice rather than experience, my friend.

The historical debate will come later... I have a birthday to enjoy and an EB preview to post first.

~Wiz

Happy birthaday though