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Thread: Which Roman Faction is Best?

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    Default Which Roman Faction is Best?

    This is a repost from a post I made within Frog's Guide thread. I was hoping to see what people thought...

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    Firstly when asked this question one must consider the differences between the factions beyond them each wearing different color tunics. (Although it bears note that the red Julii tunics are much sexier than blue or green.) These differences can be summarized as follows:

    1. Economic Position.
    2. Strategic Military Position.
    3. Temple Bonuses.
    4. Gladiator Type.

    I have listed these in descending importance according to how I view them.

    "Economic Position" refers to the provinces a faction starts with and will conquer most easily. Denarii are the basis of your empire, without them you will be a mild nuisance to be swept aside by a greater power. No matter how strong your armies you must have the infrastructure to support them. Thus having a strong economy is one's first priority. Sea trade is by far the most profitable form of collecting capital. Land trade and farming are adequate for survival but not to thrive. Mining is a dependable source of income but will always be the icing on the cake not the means of filling your treasury. Sacking cities will also gain you a tidy sum if you avail yourself of the "Exterminate" option. However, depending on this can become problematic as it becomes a circular quandary. (You will need to take a city to fund your army, you will need an army to take the city.)

    Finally you can barter state secrets (map information), trade rights and alliances to the highest bidders for another nice boost to your cash flow. Once again however this method should not be your central strategy towards gaining wealth. Firstly, because there are only so many factions to sell these goods to and once sold you must wait for a change in the political currents before they may be sold again. Furthermore as the game progresses and factions are eliminated you will find fewer and fewer potential customers. Secondly, the computer controlled factions will spend their denarii as fast as they can get it, meaning that usually any prospective negotiations will be marked by them asking you for money and not the reverse.

    So with these principals in mind it becomes obvious that the Brutii occupy the favored position with their missive to conquer the extremely prosperous Aegean Sea provinces. In general the eastern provinces as a whole are more profitable, as civilization has existed for many years in Persia, Egypt and Greece. Thus the Brutii, seeing as they lie the easternmost of the Roman factions, have the advantage in capturing these provinces. Second, the Scipii also have a good position in that they are tasked with subduing Carthage which is well known for it's trading empire. Where there is wealth for one, there will be wealth for another. By securing Iberia, the various western islands and perhaps moving across Africa into Egypt the Scipii can easily become an economic juggernaut as well. Lastly the Julii. While there is great fame to be gained in beating back the barbarian peoples there is certainly less monetary reward. The Gauls, Germans, Britons, Dacians and Spaniards are mostly poor peoples with underdeveloped settlements due to their stunted technology trees. This is not a recipe for disaster however! With careful planning and diligence the Julii can still have a healthy treasury. The Romans as a whole have an advantage in their use of highways, automatic trade rights with each other, Senate rewards, etc... By combining the above listed strategies into a strong economy the Julii will be able to support a powerful war machine.

    Lastly, it bears note that as mentioned earlier once a faction begins to maintain a treasury in excess of 50,000 denarii from turn to turn, their governors begin to exhibit deviant and poor moral traits. Thus while in the early game it will certainly be your priority to squeeze every last coin out that you can, by the mid-game you should be in a strong financial position. Before reading frog's guide I often kept treasuries above 500,000 denarii by the time I had about 15-20 provinces. So while this point is vastly important, with proper management it soon vanishes into obscurity. Any of the factions can do well financially and should.

    Conclusion: Advantage Brutii, Second Scipii, Third Julii

    "Strategic Military Position" refers to the enemies you will face and your ability to hinder your rivals expansion while pursuing your own safely.

    The Brutii will face the Greeks and Macedonians initially, followed by a push thru Thrace, Pontus and the Seleucids with the possibility of a conflict with Egypt. A particularly expansionistic ruler may seek to dislodge the Dacians, Scythians and Armenians but the rewards of such are less clear. A clash with the Parthians will occur eventually but many other foes must be defeated first. The Greeks rely heavily on phalanxes, which while powerful, are easily countered. Especially since they will be your first enemy, most likely they will field mostly Militia Hoplites and Hoplites. Both of which can be crushed by a simple flanking maneuver in a way which the later Armored Hoplites and Spartan Hoplites will defend well against. The Greek cavalry is weak and their ranged weapons ineffective. They are ripe for the plucking.

    The Macedonians on the other hand feature both halves of the powerful hammer and anvil stratagem. They also field phalanxes but a Brutii leader who delays slightly will find himself facing Phalanx Pikemen instead of Militia Hoplites. This is quite significant since Phalanx Pikemen have both a greater range (four men engaging instead of two) and lack the morale penalty the Militia Hoplites do. These troops are literally a meat grinder for your infantry and suicide for your cavalry. They will not break from a simple flank attack either but debilitating missile attacks followed by repeated charges may be necessary. Fortunately, like all phalanx based armies, once one portion of the line falls the rest is soon to follow. The Macedonians prevent this by fielding powerful light cavalry. Their horses are fast, moving to the point of crisis easily and yet still capable of a strong charge. Protracted melees will defeat them but with their greater mobility they will seldom allow themselves to be caught in this position easily. The one chink in the Macedonians armor is their lack of strong missile troops. In an engagement with a Macedonian army it is vital to avoid their slow phalanxes as long as possible while you pelt their entire army from a distance. If they attempt to end the bombardment with a charge, have your infantry ready to receive the separated cavalry elements and then bring your own cavalry in on their rear; trapping and destroying them. One must exercise caution however that your cavalry does not become pinned in turn by their advancing phalanxes. Only after you have robbed them of the crucial hammer element to their force should you pick the phalanxes off at your leisure. Always expend your missile units complete stock of weapons against them first, then mob their separated and weakened units; striking first from the rear and then when they turn, striking them with another unit in their newly exposed rear.

    After dealing with the Greeks and Macedonians you will be well prepared to face the Seleucids. That is if one attacks them quickly. If one were to wait excessively he would find that the Seleucids field an extremely powerful army. In fact the Seleucids field the most balanced and powerful combination of troops of any non-Roman faction. A quick attack is highly recommended. A late game clash will find that the Seleucids can train Silver Shield Legionaries. These men are identical to Legionary Cohorts (the unit which will form the core of your army) other than a 1 point lower charge bonus. However in addition they will have Silver Shield Pikemen which compare to your Auxilia about as well as a mastiff compares to a poodle, therefore giving them a decided advantage as far as infantry troops. Their Companion Calvary and Cataphracts will outmatch your cavalry in an even engagement. They bring Scythed Chariots and War or Armored Elephants to the table while your unique units are Gladiators and Arcani. Hardly an even trade, ehh? However you will still have the advantage of pigs, dogs and superior artillery as well as missile troops. It makes for a definite challenge. Far better to nip this potential powerhouse in the bud and burn their cities while they still face you with Levy Pikemen and Militia Calvary.

    However, the Thracians and men of Pontus field a different form of army. The Thracians will train various forms of riff raff in addition to more powerful units of the Falxman type. While formidable, these units will be no match for your troops, seeing as the Romans also specialize in flexible heavy infantry and your more powerful cavalry, and missile troops will quickly turn close victories into heroic triumphs.

    The Pontics have the potential to field Phalanx Pikemen and Bronze Shields but rarely do, more often relying on weaker units to form their infantry core. Their danger comes in their javelin bearing cavalry and their chariots. Pontic Heavy and Light Calvary will regularly beat your own cavalry forces in even matches without close supervision. Chariots can destroy an entire army, by sending your men into a rout if a player does not know how to counter them. Rather than attempting to chase their cavalry from the field initially (an often futile exercise) attempt to counter them with foot archers who's greater numbers and range can quickly destroy entire units. As always be ready to receive a charge in protection of your missile troops. The best method to counter chariots is to put your men into a deeper formation. If it looks like a square you will be ready. Then tell a second unit to stand in the same space as the first. This provides a stalwart wall of bodies which will sap all the inertia from the chariots charge. It is not necessary that you engage the entire line of the chariots. Once even one of the men in a chariot unit is stopped the others will mill slowly about instead of breaking free and repeating the charge. When the chariots stop moving they are dead. (Defense of 1) Never attempt to counter charge chariots with your cavalry. When a chariot attacks a heavy infantry unit most of the men are knocked down but few casualties are taken. I have played games where I may rout an enemy unit and then proceed to chase them down and still have a third of them escape, merely because my chariots continually knock the infantrymen down but do not kill them. However, a horseman does not have the option of being knocked down and getting back up. Hence the chariots will decimate your cavalry unit in mere moments. Even charging them from the rear is extremely dangerous. If you must use cavalry, swarm them with four or five units at once. Sometimes the mere press of bodies can destroy them before they inflict too much damage.

    Egypt relies even more heavily on chariots, and their Desert Axemen and Desert Calvary can be dangerous due to their speed. By the time you move in their direction however you should be equipped to deal with their forces. The men of Pharaoh have a powerful and well balanced force but the key is their cities. Rather than attempting to beat them into submission in the field, send a few mid-sized armies out to distract and harass them. Then strike for their heart by seizing the vital cities of Memphis, Alexandria and Thebes. (In that order.) Once you have seized the prosperous heartland of the Egyptians they will be unable to resist you much longer. While you may press on for complete domination, a mere war of attrition will see them vanquished sooner rather than later.

    At any point a quick raid into Carthage's provinces of Northern Africa can reasonably expect success and destroy any hopes the Scipii might hold for their families ascendance. The Julii are not so easily countered and a strategy of using your superior wealth to support the Gauls can help them to contain the Julii much longer than usual.

    The Scipii will be responsible for dealing with Carthage initially with prospects against the Numidians and Spaniards as well. A Scipii leader will generally end up pursuing a two prong attack at some point as his forces in Iberia begin to meet the corresponding push by the Brutii in Gaul and he then must look to Egypt for further expansion. Conflict with the Parthians and Seleucids will follow, with the Armenians, Pontics and Scythians falling last. The first priority for any Scipii leader should be to secure the western portion of the Great Sea. This can be accomplished by sending a raiding party to grab Corsica, using your army to pacify Sicily and then moving on to crush Carthage. Carthage if left alone can produce strong troops. Their cavalry will be generally somewhat weaker than their Roman counterparts but their phalanxes can become a force. The Sacred Band is stronger than the Greek Armored Hoplite which should indicate its potency. Additionally, their trump card is elephants which, although always formidable, presents a particularly great challenge in the early game. Hand to hand engagement with elephants is never recommended. One can swarm them if you must, but you will take heavy losses. If you can manage to trap the beasts inside a city you siege, then the narrow streets and ability to put your archers on the walls while capturing towers can give you a chance at near bloodless victory. If you must meet them in the field a steady barrage of missiles can have effect eventually, however this requires a massive amount of arrows or javelins and you will most likely not be able to devote this amount of attention to one unit while ignoring the remainder of their forces. Incendiary Pigs are effective but it will require some time before you can bring these creatures with your army. The best early counter is to purchase Mercenary Hoplites and stack these men two or even three times. Even elephants cannot easily charge thru such a bristling wall of spear points, although do not think that such a formation is invincible. Occasionally because of a precise angle or a slight slope or some such factor the elephants may push thru even such a force. However, the percentages favor you greatly.

    Once the Carthagians are dealt with the Scipii will find little challenge. The Numidians are complete riff raff and the greatest obstacle to their defeat is the number of turns it takes to move from one settlement to the next rather than anything they are capable of assembling and calling an army. The Spaniards too do not offer much in the way of competition. The Romans took many of their ideas for their troops from the Spaniards and built on them. This means that the Spaniard troop lineup mainly looks like a weakened version of yours. By the time you reach the Gauls they will already be under assault from the Julii and may in fact already be conquered. If they are not, they will be severely weakened, and you will find little to prevent you from taking their last few provinces as well.

    The Scipii will thus not find a challenge again until their armies march upon Egypt. The strategy outlined in the Brutii section will work just as well for the Scipii. From there they should continue their push thru the Seleucids before any settling is done. By continuing the fight to the Parthians, Pontics and Armenians the Scipii can find that they have an empire with few borders. A small border on the north of Iberia and an equally small one running between the Black and Caspian Seas. With their superior navy this equates to a very strong position for the endgame.

    A savvy Scipii leader will snatch at least a portion of Greece before the Brutii may. The extreme southern portion with its easily defensibly isthmus and extremely useful Wonder beckons invitingly. The eastern islands also make key assets to a Scipii plan. Securing the rebel Byzantium as a launch-point for your future wars as you return from conquering the eastern world shows forethought and discretion. It is essential that the Scipii seize Corsica before the Julii. Not only does this give you complete domination of the seas but it prevents the Julii from using Corsica as a stepping stone to interfere with your campaigns in Africa. As with the Brutii the easiest way to slow Julii expansion without overextending yourself is to pump money into the Gallic and later British or Dacian economies. Only very rarely will the Germans manage to beat back their attackers on all sides enough to warrant supporting them.

    The Julii are responsible for dealing with the Gauls, followed by expansion into the Spanish, German and British realms. Further conquest can be pursued against the Dacians, Thracians and Scythians. If the other two factions are extremely tardy in their expansion a move against the Armenians, Pontics, and Seleucids may be possible.

    Gallic armies rely on masses of Spear Warbands supported by Naked Fanatics and Barbarian Calvary. None of which will present a particularly dangerous threat to your troops. The danger comes just as it did for historical Rome; yes you may destroy the barbarian horde, but afterwards what have you gained? If the Gauls are left alone eventually they will produce Forester Warbands which thanks to their temples will arise as hardened troops. Seeing as this unit is already the best foot archer in the game it can make a conquest of Gaul much more difficult, although by itself it will not turn the tide of war. The Spanish as outlined above will present little problem also.

    The Germans can be dangerous as they at least have a balanced force with specialized troops. Their Spear Warband can assume a phalanx formation thus making them far superior to comparable barbarian infantry. Additionally their various forms of Axeman while weaker on defense than your troops possess powerful attacks. Generally speaking if you can weather the initial charge and a secondary push by them then your troops will win the day. Their Warhounds are particularly savage with greater stats than their Roman counterparts and greater numbers than any other faction except the Scythians. Their Gothic Calvary is capable of competing with similar Roman forces and their Screeching Women can have a powerful effect on morale. If they are allowed to prosper, their armies will be well balanced and strong. Conflict will rely on your tactics and superior numbers for victory. The German force has no clear weakness to exploit. Perhaps the best method for victory lies in destroying their poorly guarded settlements rather than meeting them in the dark forests of Germania. Barbarian factions cannot build walls stronger than a stockade. You can take advantage of this with a lighting fast string of attacks which will leave the German armies without a homeland and dispersed as pockets of rebel resistance. By purchasing a unit of Mercenary Elephants (which can bash wooden gates down) you can assure that you never have to wait to break straight into a settlement and pillage the surroundings. Otherwise you can bring a Ballista or Onager unit along although this will reduce your troop movement points.

    The British have a small but unique selection of units. They will use Warbands, Woad Warriors and Druids as the bulk of their army with a strong force of both speedy British Heavy and Light Chariots accompanying. These Chariots arrange themselves in smaller formations than their eastern counterparts but are particularly suited to their surroundings and fast moving, meaning that if they decide to charge your heavy cavalry you will most likely find yourself with no heavy cavalry. Head Hurlers when used properly are an extremely powerful missile unit with a missile attack of 17 which is effective against armor. However the computer will usually bring Slingers to the battle instead and if it does train Head Hurlers it will seldom use them effectively. Thus meaning you will possess the clear advantage in missile troops and infantry. This should be enough to allow you to secure the British Isles.

    Dacian and Thracian armies possess Falxmen and are otherwise completely unremarkable. Your infantry as mentioned will be capable of beating the Falxmen back and their other forces will merely serve to give your men experience chevrons. The Scythians are a horse people and their armies when controlled by a human player can routinely slaughter foes when outnumbered by as much as 3-1 with minimal losses. The Scythian Horse Archers are more powerful and have greater stamina than other faction's. The Scythian Noble Archers are a more powerful version of the Persian Calvary although the Armenian Cataphract Archers occupy their own niche. Scythian Noble Women combine the more powerful missile attack of the Noble Archer with the speed of the Horse Archer, sacrificing only a smaller unit size. The Head Hunting Maidens are fast moving as well and effective against armor, thus making them a highly mobile and powerful force. The Scythian Nobles have an extremely high charge bonus of 17 as they wield a two handed lance. All this combines to mean that an infantry force can be fired upon at will until it is severely weakened and then descended on by some of the best cavalry forces in the game. Meanwhile almost no cavalry force is capable of catching the fleet Scythians and those that can will quickly wish they hadn't. A human player can also stymie missile troops by adopting the Cantabrian Circle formation and thus becoming extremely difficult to target. In short the Scythians possess a world conquering force which while potent in the forests of Germania and deserts of Africa is almost invulnerable on their home steppe. This may sound disheartening but you have two things working in your favor. First, the computer will make errors on the battlefield that a human player would not and second, the Scythians are poor. Merely maintaining the army they begin the game with will bankrupt the Scythian economy and thus conquest will not be too difficult. Couple that with the computers failure to use the Cantabrian Circle and you have a reliable equation to dealing with them. A large force of archers will destroy their Horse Archers in no time and a few purchased Mercenary Hoplites or even merely using the heavy Roman infantry will prevent their cavalry from charging home to your archers. Without the ability to weaken your units first from the fleet Horse Archers their charges will be largely ineffective and you will be victorious. You should only bring enough cavalry to secure your flanks as attempting to flank them in turn will almost always be a futile effort. No, the strength of your army must be your archers. The Scythians have good foot archer units as well and their Axemen are not the weaklings you might suppose but they will rarely be able to afford to train these units.

    If a Julii commander wishes to he can prevent both Scipii and Brutii conquest by merely holding the Gallic forces off while grabbing Corsica and from there attacking Carthage and sending a second force thru Dacia and into Macedonia from the north.

    Lastly I will say that for a strong position it is of the utmost importance that you hinder at least one of your rivals expansion. Because of the size of the Gallic faction this becomes prohibitive as the Scipii or Brutii and thus it is recommend that a player not seek to oppose the interests of the Julii. As the Julii maintaining a border and interfering with both your rivals is much easier although this may require neglecting some Senate missions and the penalties thereof. It is further a bit easier to attack Greece as the Scipii than Carthage as the Brutii. As a Scipii player you will find that the Brutii have their hands full with Macedon and Greece and will usually make little progress beyond the first two settlements initially. While on the other hand by taking Carthage and Thapsus the Scipii player cripples Carthage and can then turn his full attention to the Greek world. A Brutii player on the other hand will not be able to crush the Greeks and Macedonians quickly and then turn to Carthage. Rather, he will have to ignore Senate instruction and hurry his men across a distant stretch to hopefully arrive at Carthage before the Scipii, or even possibly, a meddling Julii.

    Conclusion: Clear Advantage Julii, Second Scipii, Third Brutii

    "Temple Bonuses" refers to the diverse deities the three factions get and their respective bonuses. It bears note that each deity has an accompanying Priest ancillary character, of which I have not recorded the complete effects. Thus while a temple to Ceres may not seem particularly beneficial, by comparison, the Priest (or Priestess, I am unsure) of Ceres may make building at least one of these structures worthwhile. Even further, certain temples encourage the acquisition of various traits upon your Governors. I have not studied these effects in full either. In all cases I will consider the end result of these buildings as that is what matters in the long run.

    The Brutii worship Juno, Mercury and Mars.

    Juno: 25% happiness, 25% health, level 1 trade increase, +2XP
    Mercury: 25% happiness, 10% health, level 5 trade increase, +1XP
    Mars: 25% happiness, 10% health, level 1 trade increase, +3XP, +1 moral, Arcani

    Juno thus provides the greatest bonus to public order for the Brutii and is useful for troublesome settlements. Mercury provides a significant trade bonus and gives a real boost to the Brutii economy. Mars ensures that Brutii troops are well prepared and provides the Arcani special unit.

    The Scipii worship Saturn, Neptune and Vulcan.

    Saturn: 25% happiness, 25% law, +1 weapons and armor, Arcani
    Neptune: 25% happiness, 10% law, +1 weapons and armor, Corvus Quinquireme, Decere
    Vulcan: 25% happiness, 10% law, +1 weapons and armor, +2XP

    Saturn is useful for those hot spot cities and gives the Arcani unique unit. Neptune gives the Scipii complete mastery of the seas, (Normal Quinquireme 50 men, 10 attack, 5 defense; Decere 60 men, 16 attack, 8 defense) this is particularly important as naval engagements are outside of the players realm of control, all a player can do is try to make sure he has more and bigger ships at a battle. Deceres will smash a force of Quinquiremes when outnumbered 2-1 reliably. Vulcan gives the Scipii in my opinion the best troops in the game. The Brutii forces balance an additional point of XP and a point of morale against a point of weapons and a point of armor. The difference to me is that XP can be gained easily in game by simply using said troops. While no amount of use will improve Brutii troop weapons. Thus it seems to me to boil down to a point of morale against a point of weapons and a point of armor. This may still tip the balance in the Brutii favor, I am unsure as it would require a person who knows how to mod morale bonuses to compare the two bonuses perfectly. However morale is an invisible aspect, I can't see it. I can however see my troops lit up with pretty gold icons and so I prefer this.

    The Julii worship Ceres, Bacchus and Jupiter.

    Ceres: 35% happiness, 10% law, 2.5% growth
    Bacchus: 50% happiness, 10% law, 1% growth
    Jupiter: 35% happiness, 10% law, Arcani

    Ceres gives a substantial public order bonus and a large growth bonus. The issue with this is that after about the 6000 population mark I find my cities growing faster than I can build to satisfy them anyway. Perhaps a plan of building temples to Ceres until the population begins to boom and then destroying them to build another would be effective? Too large of a population causes unrest and encourages plague. A city of 25,000 hardly needs an extra 2.5% growth tacked on. Bacchus gives the highest overall public bonus of any Roman faction and is thus particularly suited to dealing with rebellious peoples, the slight growth bonus might create some problem but compared to Ceres, Bacchus seems completely favorable. Jupiter provides a decent public order bonus as well and allows for recruiting the Arcani special unit. All in all the Julii gods seem uninspiring to me. Saturn does the same thing as Jupiter except he provides 5% more happiness and +1 to weapons and armor, significant bonuses. Ceres's growth bonus is counterproductive which leaves Bacchus as being the only useful one of the lot.

    Thus it becomes a matter of comparing Mercury's trade bonus with Neptune's naval power. I always, as in the case of comparing Vulcan and Mars, consider attributes in the light of supply and demand. Denarii are limitless, with many ways to obtain them. Corvus Quinquiremes and Deceres are a Scipii monopoly. While Economic Position and Strategic Military Position are more important factors at their base. The deities strongly influence a factions ability to act on those factors. In particular the Scipii's Pantheons allowing superior troop production across the board is noteworthy.

    Conclusion: Clear Advantage Scipii, Second Brutii, Distant Third Julii

    "Gladiator Type" refers to the difference in the type of gladiator each faction gets. Additionally, they receive the gladiator unit at different stages of the game. With the Brutii getting their Gladiator from the Arena, the Julii getting theirs from the Amphitheatre and the Scipii getting theirs from the Coliseum. I list this merely because it is a difference. In actuality it carries little weight.

    The Julii have the Samnite Gladiator with these stats:
    Attack: 14
    Charge: 4
    Defense: 14
    HP: 2
    Excellent Morale, Very Good Stamina, Charge w/o Orders, Sap

    The Brutii have the Velite Gladiator with these stats:
    Attack: 12
    Charge: 7
    Defense: 14 (Shield 5)
    HP: 2
    Excellent Morale, Very Good Stamina, Charge w/o Orders, Sap, Fast, Bonus vs. Elephants & Chariots

    The Scipii have the Mirmillo Gladiator with these stats:
    Attack: 12
    Charge: 7
    Defense: 14
    HP: 2
    Excellent Morale, Very Good Stamina, Charge w/o Orders, Sap

    Overall the Samnite seems to be the best, however the Mirmillo in situations where a downhill charge is possible will perform better. The Velite has both benefits and drawbacks. Their benefits being their use in engaging the always troublesome Chariot and Elephant units and performing better against such than any other unit. Additionally, their speed means they have greater mobility than either of the others. The drawback is that unlike the others a good chunk of their defense comes from their skillful use of their shields. Thus an attack to their flanks or rear, be it by missile or hand-to-hand units, will be especially traumatic to them whereas the two other gladiator units seem to generally work well regardless of the direction they are facing.

    Conclusion: Advantage Julii, Second Brutii, Close Third Scipii

    Synopsis: The Scipii occupy the middle ground as respects to both Economic Position and Strategic Military Position. The Brutii hold the advantage in one respect and the Julii a clear advantage in the other. The Scipii hold a clear advantage however in their Pantheons while the Julii lag awkwardly behind. In the lesser difference of gladiator type The Julii have the advantage with a unit with better stats and earlier availability.

    Overall Conclusion: Advantage Scipii, Second Brutii, Third Julii

    I hope this is of some assistance.

    - Nate
    Drink water.

  2. #2
    Senior member Senior Member Dutch_guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    well I didn't really read the whole post , but this is what I think :

    Brutii , since they have the best way to expand ; into greech and Macedonia and later on Asia Minor.
    You can get rich very fast, and their glad. unit is the lowest tech so you only need a arena , + the velite glad als has a bonus versus chariots and cav. perfect for fighting the damn egyptians.

    and when the civil war start you cna quikly take capua and syracuse , since you basicly start next to them.

    As the Scipii you need to worry about the senate on your left and the Brutii on your right, not to mention the JUlii up north.

    As the Brutii you have your back covered and only need to fear on side, your left ( or west )



    ps : I enjoy playing the Julii them ost though, due to the red units and the fighting against the Gauls.

    I'm an athiest. I get offended everytime I see a cold, empty room. - MRD


  3. #3
    Member Member Spartiate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    I'll have to side with Dutch_Guy on this one.The Brutii are with-out a doubt the best Roman faction as their easy access to both fabulous wealth and large and fast growing populations means they get to upgrade their cities much faster thus gaining better troops .Also their temples of Mars gain your troops a great advantage in Experience before they fight a single battle.
    The Scipii come next with their potential to take Sicily and Carthage for both trade and population growth and their access to the best naval unit in the game.
    Having said all this the Julii are still my favourite Roman faction as i am a Julius Caesar fanatic and i enjoy their early game (in the DM mod).
    "Go tell the Spartans,stranger passing by that here,obedient to their laws we lie."

  4. #4
    Vermonter and Seperatist Member Uesugi Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    Brutii take the cake.

    Velites add some nice light infantry which the Romans seriously lack, Mars and Mercury temples are all you need for strong troops and a booming economy and the Brutii have the safest starting position of them all. Besides with RTR they all wear a nice color red.
    "A man's dying is more his survivor's affair than his own."
    C.S. Lewis

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    I covered the wealth issue. All the Roman Factions are capable of wealth. I don't see the difference in having 300,000 denarii and 600,000...

    Maybe the population point is a good one. I am in the habit of exterminiting cities with more than 2,500 people as it annoys me to have to leave garrisons behind to secure hostile cities.

    In my opinion Vulcan is superiour to Mars, or at least about equal. He provides an experience bonus as well.
    Drink water.

  6. #6
    Member Member CMcMahon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    Julii are the easiest to expand quickly with, in my opinion, because of all of the small-sized territories to the north and west which are fairly easy to take over quickly (until you get to Germania, and even they're not that hard to beat). However, the make the least money, because those regions are poorer and many are landlocked.

    The Brutii allow you to become very, very rich quickly, and expand to a good number of territories fairly quickly, but have the problem of facing some of the harder factions to beat early in the game with hastati and principes (Macedon, Thrace, and Greece with their phalanxes, and some other units, such as the Thracian falxmen).

    The Scipii are more middle of the road for money, but have the problem of being very slow at taking territory, because there's only have seven territories to the south and west of them, not including Caralis, Petra, and Spain, and those territories. Although having fairly easy opposition, assuming Carthage doesn't have a lot of elephants, the territories you have to conquer are huge, and it takes a long time to get an army from Carthage to Dmmidi (or whatever it's called), and then back to take on your next logical opponent, Egypt, before it gets too strong.

  7. #7
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    SNZ, your not considering the traits/retinues that each temple line give. Happiness bonus is one thing but if the temple turns your family member/governor into a drunken, perverted, letch, or a demented, abusive, phsychotic, maniac it's not exactly a good thing. Let's look at the Roman temples with an eye on the traits they deal out.

    The Julii worship Ceres, Bacchus and Jupiter.

    Ceres: 35% happiness, 10% law, 2.5% growth -This is the temple of fertility the best reason to have one of these around other than the population growth is because it gives the fruitly trait. This increases the chances of having children. It gives a lot of mystic reitnue members, the preistess of Ceres is like a doctor with a +1 to managment and influence.

    Bacchus: 50% happiness, 10% law, 1% growth -The temple of fun, pound for pound the worst temple line in the game. The happiness bonus is over shadowed by the fact that any governor in the same city as a Bacchus temple turns into a drunken, perverted, letch. Even the retinues it hands out suck. The only good one is the preist and then just barely. The rest are of the drunken uncle type.

    Jupiter: 35% happiness, 10% law, Arcani -This is the temple of leadership. By far the best temple the Julii get. It will breed a family member that is a good balance between governor and general.

    The Scipii worship Saturn, Neptune and Vulcan.

    Saturn: 25% happiness, 25% law, +1 weapons and armor, Arcani -The temple of law. It will make a decent governor. They most of them end up with a high secruity trait and a justice trait. The fact that it also give Arcani is a big plus.

    Neptune: 25% happiness, 10% law, +1 weapons and armor, Corvus Quinquireme, Decere -The temple of the sea. This temple give traits that are similar in nature to the god it honours, bloodlust and anger. Not the best traits for a governor or a general. It's saving grace are this ships you can get.

    Vulcan: 25% happiness, 10% law, +1 weapons and armor, +2XP -Temple of the forge. It can make a family a very good miner and engineer, but ugly as the north end of a pig going south. Just like Vulcan. The retinues given by the temple and the armour bonus more than make up for that. Amrourer, mining engineer and architecht are some of the retinue Vulcan gives.


    The Brutii worship Juno, Mercury and Mars.

    Juno: 25% happiness, 25% health, level 1 trade increase, +2XP -The temple of healing. This will give a family member traits like "in the pink", or "hail and hardy". The retinues it grants are good for morale and healing your troops after battle, plus the doctor it will grant is good for having kids too.

    Mercury: 25% happiness, 10% health, level 5 trade increase, +1XP -The temple of trade. This is one of those temples that is a razors edge, a family member put here will either be an astounding governor or a really really craptacular one. No middle of the road. The retinues members it hands out all increase either trade income or managment.

    Mars: 25% happiness, 10% health, level 1 trade increase, +3XP, +1 moral, Arcani -The temple of battle, all the Roman factions have a temple that give very desirable civic or military bonuses but very bad traits this is the Brutii's. The traits it usually grants are anger and bloodlust, but with a much much higher probability than the temple of Neptune. It has some good retinue member the preist is good as is the werstler and gladiator it will give. but that doesn't quite make up for the fact that is turns your family members into a demented, abusive, phsychotic, maniac given enough time.

    As for the population growth question. You all seem to be ignoring that the Scipii have ready acess to the conquest of Carthage and Syracuse both of which sit in provinces with the grain resource. It grants a big population growth bonus.

    In galdiator units the beat one is a non-issue. The simplicity with which you can alter the data files to let all Roman factions have acess to all 3 it doesn't matter.
    Last edited by lars573; 07-03-2005 at 00:03.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    Thank you very much lars573, I was curious as to exactly what those effects may be and was hoping someone could provide that information in a concise manner.

    Your information certainly changes some of my thoughts concerning when one should build which temples where, but the end synopsis remains the same to me. The Julii's Bacchus temple is counteracted as you point out by the effects it causes. I still do not consider any bonuses Ceres may bring to be worth the 2.5% population growth which while beneficial in the early game will cause many more problems in the late game. Which leaves only Jupiter as a diety without serious drawbacks for the Julii, and both Saturn and Juno outperform him.

    On the other hand Saturn performs very well as a standard temple to build while a few temples to Neptune will give your fleet an edge that cannot be matched. Scattering temples to Vulcan on provinces with mines to serve as troop production centers leaves the Scipii with potentially the best Roman army, the best navy period and an orderly, happy populace.

    The Brutii would seem to want to alter between temples to Mercury and Juno depending on the need for finances and content citizens, while building only enough temples to Mars to provide a troop training center in each locality. Which all means that the Brutii will generally speaking be wealthy, content and have strong armies.

    As in my initial post my point being that while Mars's troops are slightly more powerful than Vulcan's, Vulcan's have more potential. Mercury provides a nice bonus but denarii are plentiful and if a player has any skill whatsoever money will not be a problem. On the other hand being able to crush the enemies navy easily and then blockade their ports means that a temple to Neptune is much more desired than one to Mercury. Juno seems to me to be slightly preferable to Saturn given the ancillary characters and traits you listed.

    Your note concerning gladiators is certainly true and I acknowledged that the difference was essentially pointless. I merely considered it because as of box version of the game, the difference existed.
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  9. #9
    Nobody Important Member Somebody Else's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    Another thing to mention about gladiators (in an unaltered version of the game anyway), The Brutii have another advantage in that their velite gladiators only require an arena to train and retrain, whereas the Julii need to tech up to an amphitheatre, and the Scipii to a Colliseum. This allows the Brutii to be able to field more of them, and more often - if so desired.
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  10. #10
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    SNZ I tend to follow a specific build pattern with my temples for the Romans.

    Julii
    Ceres -I build this temple in Segesta and Caralis first. Any others are on an as needed (for the population bonus) basis. The fruitful trait means that if you can give it to the starting sons of your faction leader the Julii will have generals out the ass in the mid and late game.

    Bacchus -I avoid this temple like the plauge. The happiness bonus isn't worth the drinking, gambling, and skirt chasing/beastiality/incest/homosexual traits that a general will (not might) end up with. If i build it it's only on the island of great britain, maybe Iuvavum.

    Jupiter -This is the main temple i build if there is no genuine need for the happiness of Bacchus or the population growth of Ceres this is what I build.

    Scipii
    Saturn -This is my Scipii main temple. The law bonus and the law traits make it a good temple to propegate as widely as possible.

    Neptune -I save this for Capua, Caralis, and Palma. This where in the fullness of time the Scipii navy of doom will launch from, it consists of 2 Decere's 4 corvus quiquremes and 14 triremes.

    Vulcan -I reseve this temple for good troop producing areas. A good troop producing area is a place with 3 or more cities in 1 turns march of each other so you can build an army quickly. Some examples are Fortress Scipii (AKA Sicily) Syria (Antioch, Damascus, Sidon), North italy (Arretium, Ariminum, Segesta, patavium) south greece (Thermon, Corinth, Sparta), the nile (Alexandria, Memphis, Thebes), and to some extent Britain (Londinium, Erebricum, the one is wales).


    Brutii
    Juno -This is what I use as the Brutii general temple. Reason being it's health bonus increases population growth.

    Mercury -I limit this to cities that can have a huge trade income. They are Athens, Larrisa, Rhodes, Kydonia, Thessalonica, and Salona.

    Mars -Much like Vulcan I limit this temple to the good troop producing areas. But unlike Vulcan with Mars you have to think long and hard before putting a governor in a city with this temple.
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  11. #11
    Member Lancome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    I believe this should be a sticky since it clearly states the best descriptions On 3 of the Roman Factions. I specially like the way its describes the stats of the Temples and possible outcomes of expansion. Good Job dude!

  12. #12
    Member Member RollingWave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    Agree, Bruttis are easiest, their economic position is the best, have the easiest access to the wonders. and faces divided oppenets.

    Scipiies comes second, the difficult part is pushing on after taking Sciliy.. if you take Carthage (which is difficult) and then you push into Africa, which doesn't yield much for a while and get u into trouble with the eggies faster. ur land will be more spread, although potentially good economy.

    Jullies have the worest position, though their oppenent is weaker (not really though in game, where the AI cheats anyway) they take forever to get wealthy (usually it depends on how long the Bruttise takes the Balkans too = =)

  13. #13

    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    thank you Lancome I attempted to edit the post with lars573's new information but I don't see the button to do that...

    is that not available in this forum? I edited my post in frog's guide in any case...
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    Member Member bippukt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    I agree with SMZ. Though I haven't thought about it as statistically as SMZ, I always find playing with Scipii a lot more easy than the Brutii. And most of all, when the Civil war starts, due to my extremely superior navy, I can blockade most of the other Romans' ports and thus drain their economy. The temples are important, but not as much as the navy. So for me, it's :

    Scipii > Brutii > Julii.
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  15. #15
    Senior member Senior Member Dutch_guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    @SMZ :

    is that not available in this forum? I edited my post in frog's guide in any case...
    Maybe it's because you're a junior member , you can edit once you get your membership.


    @ bippukt

    I can blockade most of the other Romans' ports and thus drain their economy.
    Well there is no arguing about who has the best navy, Scipii without a doubt.
    However you can blockade a port with just 1 bireme and get exactley the same effect as when you blockade the port with 20 units of deceres.
    And to me, a navy is important but I'll go with the legions every day

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  16. #16
    Elephant Master Member Conqueror's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    Regarding temple bonuses: correct me if I'm wrong but I think experience bonuses are only given to those troops that are initially trained in the city with the temple, while weapon/armor upgrades also kick in when re-training units. Thus you can provide these upgrades also to units that were trained in other cities (which you might have to do sometimes) as well as to mercenary units.

    Also, about Scipii conquest of Africa: I find it a good strategy to focus on capturing coastal provinces and not venturing deeper south untill much later. Once they've lost Carthage and Thapsus, the Carthaginians will be severely weakened and they'll be more of a nuisance than a real threat. You can probably leave them be for some time and focus on attacking Egypt. Ditto for Numidians. As for moving armies: never try to crawl across the desert when you could just load your troops into ships and sail along the coast. You can even move artillery quickly this way.

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  17. #17

    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    All the discussion about starting position is nonsence in my opinion.

    As the scipii I always grab a huge chunk of greece (Sparta, Corinth, Athens always, sometime a couple more though) and beat the brutii into turkey.

    I started a Brutii game last night and my empire cinsists of:
    Southern Italy starting provinces
    All Greece and balkans except byzalore (Macedonian furthest north?)
    Carthage and Thaspus
    Palma and Spanish city to the North West

    As you see if you have any initiative you can grab the best areas with no triuble. This is because the AI factions are so slow to expand. So starting position is virtually non existant as a point on who is best. Just temples and gladiators in my opinion. I have modded the game so all factions access all of roman temples. I figure they all worship the same gods as they are the same epople at the end of the day. But before i did that i felt the brutii had the best selection of temples. As for the glads it really depends, in my brutii game mentioned above i am going to eventually come into cinflict with egypt and then i will be glad to have velitate glads available. But in gereral I prefer the scipii glads.

    But i am sure every1 has their own opinion on the factions. Every faction has its good points and bad.

  18. #18
    Bug Hunter Senior Member player1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573
    Ceres: 35% happiness, 10% law, 2.5% growth -This is the temple of fertility the best reason to have one of these around other than the population growth is because it gives the fruitly trait. This increases the chances of having children. It gives a lot of mystic reitnue members, the preistess of Ceres is like a doctor with a +1 to managment and influence.

    Bacchus: 50% happiness, 10% law, 1% growth -The temple of fun, pound for pound the worst temple line in the game. The happiness bonus is over shadowed by the fact that any governor in the same city as a Bacchus temple turns into a drunken, perverted, letch. Even the retinues it hands out suck. The only good one is the preist and then just barely. The rest are of the drunken uncle type.

    Jupiter: 35% happiness, 10% law, Arcani -This is the temple of leadership. By far the best temple the Julii get. It will breed a family member that is a good balance between governor and general.
    My motto when playing Julii. If province has high fertility (natural growth) build Jupiter temple, if not Ceres.

    As for Bacchus temple, only good thing about it is that it gives some cool retunue memebrer, including several that give bonus to spies and assassins. My strategy is to build it in some unimportant city that got 2000+ pop (segesta maybe?) and putting your worst general there. Then when when you get retinues just swap them to good generals.


    Quote Originally Posted by lars573
    The Scipii worship Saturn, Neptune and Vulcan.

    Saturn: 25% happiness, 25% law, +1 weapons and armor, Arcani -The temple of law. It will make a decent governor. They most of them end up with a high secruity trait and a justice trait. The fact that it also give Arcani is a big plus.

    Neptune: 25% happiness, 10% law, +1 weapons and armor, Corvus Quinquireme, Decere -The temple of the sea. This temple give traits that are similar in nature to the god it honours, bloodlust and anger. Not the best traits for a governor or a general. It's saving grace are this ships you can get.

    Vulcan: 25% happiness, 10% law, +1 weapons and armor, +2XP -Temple of the forge. It can make a family a very good miner and engineer, but ugly as the north end of a pig going south. Just like Vulcan. The retinues given by the temple and the armour bonus more than make up for that. Amrourer, mining engineer and architecht are some of the retinue Vulcan gives.
    My motto here, build usually Saturn, and Vulcan in strategic points (where you move army to be upgraded).

    As for Nepture, it doesn't really give any VnVs and looks useless before 4th level, but there is chance to get some retinunes for your admiral when buidling ships, which give command stars, so it's not total loos. Build it in city that has high growth (so it will get to higher levels more quickly) and is specialized in naval units.



    The Brutii worship Juno, Mercury and Mars.

    Juno: 25% happiness, 25% health, level 1 trade increase, +2XP -The temple of healing. This will give a family member traits like "in the pink", or "hail and hardy". The retinues it grants are good for morale and healing your troops after battle, plus the doctor it will grant is good for having kids too.

    Mercury: 25% happiness, 10% health, level 5 trade increase, +1XP -The temple of trade. This is one of those temples that is a razors edge, a family member put here will either be an astounding governor or a really really craptacular one. No middle of the road. The retinues members it hands out all increase either trade income or managment.

    Mars: 25% happiness, 10% health, level 1 trade increase, +3XP, +1 moral, Arcani -The temple of battle, all the Roman factions have a temple that give very desirable civic or military bonuses but very bad traits this is the Brutii's. The traits it usually grants are anger and bloodlust, but with a much much higher probability than the temple of Neptune. It has some good retinue member the preist is good as is the werstler and gladiator it will give. but that doesn't quite make up for the fact that is turns your family members into a demented, abusive, phsychotic, maniac given enough time.
    Build Juno in cities with low fertility, for those with bit higher fertility build Mercury for cities with good trade (for maximum gain), and Mars where you plan to build lots of troops.

    Important thing to rememeber that Mars gives bloodlust and anger, while mercury gives some good bonuses as well as some terrible vices (usually gained aftre city becomes bigger).



    All together, it's always good stragety to mix temples whatever faction you play That way you can combine all retunue memebers.


    P.S.
    Also Neptune does give any vices at all as far as I remember.
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  19. #19
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    1. Economic Position - They're all equal. Brutii are good due to location near Greece and Macedon but Greece and Macedon can be hard to break. Scipii have an advantage in quick ability to conquer Carthage and Sicily but there their advantage ends. Numidia is easy to conquer, but poor. Not until they reach Egypt or Spain do they get much money again. But a good player would secure Greece with Scipii, and then they're probably the best from an economical perspective due to both being able to conquer Carthage and Greece areas. Julii however aren't that bad either as they can conquer both Gaul and Germania at the same time, and do it fast due to the barbarians not having wooden walls and being generally easy to beat in the game. A skilled Julii player would also secure Carthage (and perhaps also parts of Sicily) before the Scipii does, and should therefore be able to get a flourishing economy easily.

    2. Strategic Military Position - The Julii can conquer MUCH from their position, although every settlement they conquer might be poorer. If they take Carthage too they should have a really good position. Also for most conquests they don't need naval superiority to win their wars - therefore their position is among the better. Scipii have a problematic position at the start due to needing naval superiority in order to transport their troops between their starting settlements. An average player would conquer Carthage and then Numidia first. When going for Numidia the strategical position is bad due to Scipii having to spread out their forces much when conquering such a large landmass as North Africa, and they might end up sharing borders with Egypt if they go to far - or if the Egyptians go too far. A better Scipii player would conquer much of Greece and Macedon too early, and then secure what's probably one of the best positions of the romans. The Brutii are in the worst starting position but can build much out of it. It's hard for them to conquer Carthage and north africa early, due to long transport distances. Their only really viable alternative that doesn't stretch their forces too thin would be the Greeks and Macs, but once they're down the Brutii have so many options that their formerly problematic position is in many ways compensated. However the northern Balkans area is a problematic area with few borders unless you stay at the Danube line or go all the way north into Germania and conquer Scythia up to the Volga, so there you have some problems again. The other alternative is to establish a foothold in Asia minor and go east - an alternativ which can also be problematic until you've taken at least 2 settlements in Asia minor. As I see it, all are quite even here as the provinces Brutii can take easily are so good that they've got an advantage over the other romans even if they're holding fewer provinces after the first game years.

    3. Temple Bonuses - Scipii have an obvious advantage in the Decere and Corvus Quinquireme. However I've personally not needed any better ships than the Quinquireme as most AI enemies seem to neglect their navies. Also most temples built have to be happiness only temples on harder difficulties, and there all 3 roman factions are equal.

    4. Gladiator Type - usually a legionary is better than a gladiator to fill a spot in any roman army, so gladiator type really doesn't matter. The julii and scipii gladiators are probably the best, but hard to access. The brutii gladiators are lighter and fill a more unique function in a roman army due to it's light equipment and strong charge unlike most roman line troops who have low charge and strong defence. I'd say perhaps Brutii are best here but I rarely ever use the gladiators, they're really not important enough to determine which roman faction is strongest.

    In conclusion I'd say all 3 roman factions are about equal in strength and difficulty.
    Under construction...

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  20. #20

    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    Ahh... thanks for the explanation about that curious state Dutch_guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch_guy
    Well there is no arguing about who has the best navy, Scipii without a doubt.
    However you can blockade a port with just 1 bireme and get exactley the same effect as when you blockade the port with 20 units of deceres.
    And to me, a navy is important but I'll go with the legions every day
    Your blockades will not last very long if the enemy has the stronger navy and can continually break said blockades. If you've destroyed all their ships first however, then you may impose a complete blockade with no hope of their ever breaking free. And true, you need the legions to conquer, marching around thru deserts and mountains however can slow your progress to a crawl. Much quicker to sail up and down the coastlines. :)

    Good point Conqueror! I had forgotten that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahrabals apprentice
    All the discussion about starting position is nonsence in my opinion.
    Hardly so! As you admit yourself, it forces you to seize certain areas rapidly. Yes the Scipii or Brutii can cut one another off, and the Julii can cut them both off. But you will have to work quickly and skillfully to do so. It shapes your gameplay for the first twenty turns or so and builds the dynamics for everything that will follow. I consider that extremely important.

    Quote Originally Posted by player1
    P.S.
    Also Neptune does give any vices at all as far as I remember.
    I was curious about that as well. However, since I hadn't kept track of ancillaries and traits provided and lars573 seemed knowledgeable on the subject I went with his notes. I'll playtest that tonight I guess.
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  21. #21
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    My conclusions about the Neptune temple are based on experience. I build the Neptune temple in Capua remember the starting Scipii capitol. Several family member mature there, after all the ones who would mature there did I took the older ones and left a fresh 16 yearold Scipii a governor. During his tenture he gained bloody and anger as traits, as the city progressed from level 2 to 4. Now disregarding the random hand of fate in his trait gathering the only conclusion is that Neptune can hand out bloody and anger as traits. Also this isn't the only time it has happened to a Scipii family member I've left in Capua with a Neptune temple long term.
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  22. #22
    Robot Unicorn Member Kekvit Irae's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    In my personal opinion, it goes by several methods.

    Financially, the Brutii are the best because of their early war with Greece and Macedon. The problem is that you will be fighting a good number of heavy infantry, and early Romans do not have much in the way of cavalry units to combat this.
    Strategically, Scipii are the best because they have a foothold on Sicily (which is manned by a paltry garrison of Carthagians and Greeks), especially if you take the walled city of Syracuse early.
    Expansion-wise, Julii are the best because their primary enemy is the under-developed Gauls, which easily fall prey to Roman arms. The only problem about this is the low income you will recieve from the poor cities you conquer.

  23. #23
    Bug Hunter Senior Member player1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573
    My conclusions about the Neptune temple are based on experience. I build the Neptune temple in Capua remember the starting Scipii capitol. Several family member mature there, after all the ones who would mature there did I took the older ones and left a fresh 16 yearold Scipii a governor. During his tenture he gained bloody and anger as traits, as the city progressed from level 2 to 4. Now disregarding the random hand of fate in his trait gathering the only conclusion is that Neptune can hand out bloody and anger as traits. Also this isn't the only time it has happened to a Scipii family member I've left in Capua with a Neptune temple long term.
    And my conclusions are based on txt data files for moding that spell out exacly what trait can temple affect and what ancillaries can be gained.
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  24. #24
    Bug Hunter Senior Member player1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    Whenever I played it always happend that with Julii I alwasy spend all my money in single turn, while in case of Brutii I was swimming with gold. I even started using expensive bribing so all that money would not go to waster (and to prevent having reserve higher then 50,000 which makes govenrons corupt).

    So yes, Julii do have worst ecenmony, but best expansion potential.
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  25. #25
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    I have to say that last time I checked, did the Jupiter temple give a higher bonus to law than 10%. I think it's 25%.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  26. #26
    Bug Hunter Senior Member player1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    Only in BUG-FIXER...

    Seriously, Jupiter temple drops its law bonus from 20% to 10% at last level. And I don't think it was deliberate, if you ask me...
    BUG-FIXER, an unofficial patch for both Rome: Total War and its expansion pack

  27. #27
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    Quote Originally Posted by player1
    Only in BUG-FIXER...

    Seriously, Jupiter temple drops its law bonus from 20% to 10% at last level. And I don't think it was deliberate, if you ask me...
    Aaahh, took the inofficial patch from here before I played my first game.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

    Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
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  28. #28
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    Did not read the post's , just unswearing - the romans (in RTR)
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

  29. #29
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    I prefer the Julii....

    The economic situation is quite bad, although you have rich things awaiting up top( the Gauls).... Also, if the Julii conquer Illyria and Dalmatia and fight with the Macedonians, you cand send a full stack army to Athens and conquer it... Also, when you have enough stacks, attack Sparta and Corinth.....

    Temple bonuses are good....Haven't got to the Pantheon yet...

    Gladitators - The number 2 gladiators.... Scipii have the best.....
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

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  30. #30

    Default Re: Which Roman Faction is Best?

    First of all, grats on an excellent post!
    Although all 3 roman factions are quite easy, my personal experience is Julii>Brutii>Scipii. Of course let's not forget we are playing vs the AI and not against a human opponent.
    My reasoning stands on the following facts:
    Money are never a problem for romans. Maybe Brut's get more than Jul's in the early game but the difference isn't really that important and with some good planning it can even become quite unimportant. In the later stages of the game there is, as you also said, no difference between 300k and 600k gold.
    As far as gladiators go, i think you've made a misjudge there and to say the truth you left a very important factor out of your, otherwise, excellent post.
    City size.
    Velites can be trained in the lvl1 arena, which needs a lvl3 city (a minor city) and you can get that easily, while the Samnites need a lvl4 and the Mirmilos a lvl5 city respectively. Although you can get to lvl3 easily, the next 2 lvls are a bit tough, although exrta grain regions such as Carthage-Syracuse and Egypt main provinces can get there faster, it doesn't really matter since by that time you will have Legionary cohorts which are better than Samnites or Mirmillos. Let alone you need not to slaughter Syracuse or Carthage to be able to get them to lvl4+ easily and in the starting rounds of the game (Egypt is still a bit far) this would mean maintaing a large garrison = depleting your other towns in order to built 4+ peasents (120 men unit size) and of course paying that extra money for the extra peasents. So, for me, only velites have some use, even in the later stages as they have bonusses vs chariots and elephants. The fact that you get them much easier is a big+, tho princeps are 1 turn and about equal with them in combat. The good thing about velite glads are they are only 40 men a unit, thus exping faster.
    All in all tho, i don't consider gladiators to be a big concern in determining the best roman faction.
    As far as temples go, you dont have to built a temple and stick with it. I feel +growth is the most important in the early game. There are 2 kinds of them. The simple +growth and the +health. Health gives also growth in the same % as the regular growth temple, but also provides extra happiness and also reduces the chance of your cities getting the plague when they reach higher populations. Of course since the romans have all these water facilities they get all the +health they need . So +health is better than mere +growth, but these are the best for giving your towns an early +% pop boost, which in turn means you get to the next lvl faster and you can now train better troops. Sure, EXP and all that is usefull and i love it, but you need nothing more than Hastati to take down your starting opponents. For later stages tho, stronger units are needed. What to built when you've reached a lvl where you don't need extra growth from your temples? Well for Jul's built the law temple (+ obedience and - corruption) while for the other faction either law or war temple as u see fit.
    I agree that Vulcan > Mars, only that Mars gives bigger bonus faster, Vulcan lags a bit behind in the starting producer quality, but in the end it gives better troops. Of course getting +1 exp troops means more kills to get the 2nd exp point, while Vulcans 0 exp guys can get to exp1 faster and retaing their better weapons. Choice is clearly Vulcan, early game or late, let alone the fact that a unit can only be retrained for higher exp when it has casualties, while for better weapons it can be at 100% strength. Thus if u built an exp1 unit and a couple of turns later u built the exp2 temple u can't retrain them at that lvl, which isn't the case with vulcan.
    So my choice here is Health then Growth then whatever.
    A special note on Neptune. I find it unimportant. Not only do you need a lvl 4 city (large city) to get any benifits from it, but also the stronger ships are not that important vs the AI. Tririmes will serve you well 100% of the time and they only need 1 turn to built.
    Finally starting position: I think the Julii have the best because both their starting towns can support with troops their campaign, while the Brutii must ship them from south italy and the Scipii have Capua (their capital and biggest of the 2) quite far away for starters. So as i see it, the Julii have it easier in the sence of supports. Also capturing patavium and mediolanum gives them 2 decent sized cities from which to expand at leisure as they are cut off from the rest of the Gauls.
    Arcani and not too important either. By the time you get them, you have a won game. Good lucks tho
    To sum up, for me its Julii>Brutii>Scipii mainly cos of the starting pos and enemies they face.
    Btw, the temples should be considered at all lvl's and not only the Pantheons.
    A Pantheon is a bit too far away on the tech tree to be considered as a decisive factor. Early development is much more important than later, in my book at least. I mean, the romans are strong because of Hastati and not cos of freaking Urban Cohorts.

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