6 days or 5 billion years ?

[caesar44]

Then you believe the same as the christain fundementalists.

No !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
read my post's !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Red, my mom and some of my other relatives believe the same thing as you do, that it's a metaphor. Not my cousin, but she's a born again...

Thats what most Americans and I might add christains believe in fact I would say 90% or more of them. Just the opposite of what caesar44 said. Its pretty academic. Again a day is measured by how long it takes the earth to make a full rotation upon its axis. If there were no earth or sun how can you have a day? And that asumming god was refering to an earth day. Maybe he had a little hour glass to use. But then again an hour is 1 24th of a day which was not invented yet so thats out also. Its just common sense that it is indeed a metaphor.

[caesar44]

Thats what most Americans and I might add christains believe in fact I would say 90% or more of them. Just the opposite of what caesar44 said. Its pretty academic. Again a day is measured by how long it takes the earth to make a full rotation upon its axis. If there were no earth or sun how can you have a day? And that asumming god was refering to an earth day. Maybe he had a little hour glass to use. But then again an hour is 1 24th of a day which was not invented yet so thats out also. Its just common sense that it is indeed a metaphor.

I have argued that when I was 10 years old , and it is still a good argument that the believers can't managed

[Steppe Merc]

Well my grandma is very religous, worships god, and goes to church everyday. She doesn't believe that it was litteraly 6 days. Most folks are religous, but not all believe the Bible litteraly.

[caesar44]

That's a good question ( there are no stupid questions only stupid answers).

And only valid answer there is approximately 4.5 billion years (so choice b).

The first statement is true. And there's no proof of god at all, in any form or theory.

The next time the word 'nonbeliever' is thrown around they should add "of the unbelievable".

Hence, you can call me a "Nonbeliever of the Unbelievable".

You know , I have had your opinions years ago - "God...rubbish" , but now (I still think "God" is an invention made by not very smart men , no offence) I am sticking with Socrates who said "always ask questions , always say , I don't know the unswear" now , from that point of view , you can listen to science and consider - there is no God , but , I really don't know , ha ?

[Viking]

4. He who belive's in God , must belive in the Bible therefore , he belive in the 6 days creation

Err, not necessarily. I think of the bible as something that was used to explains human beings for 2000 years ago somewhat what the creation was like, not exactly what it was like, as people than would denied it like it was trash and the religion would die out.
The creation of the Earth is pretty much proved to have taken 4.5 billion years so I see no reason why people should deny that.

[caesar44]

So , you are telling me that you combine the theories , how ?

[Viking]

I do not combine. I believe the Earth was created in 4,5 billion years. Whether God created it is another question.

[ichi]

The Old Testament of the Bible is an attempt by ancient peoples to explain their creation and place in the world, and as such is a 'creation myth'.

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

When one looks at these words they seem fitting for the understanding of goat-farmers several thousand years ago, but in light of our understanding of the world today they seem less than satifying. There is no mention of when God created gravity, or electricity, nor is there an explanation of the planets, nor of the fossils of plants and animals now extinct.

The Grand Canyon, the polar ice caps, the evidence of glaciation across Europe and North America, the Himalaya all can be explained using current geological concepts much, much better than by simply claiming God created them from an idea he had.

Plant and animal diversity, speciation and adaptation over long periods better explains the world today than does Genesis.

Surely in the future many of our current concepts will be found wrong, or somehow improved by advancements in understanding, but to think that the explanation of the world as written by some folks who didn't know about genes or plate tectonics or germs is the absolute definitive explanation is lunacy (don't get me wrong, I'm sure the ancients were great guys, but . . .).

Here's some other examples that have no more (or less) validity than the Bible in explaining the origins of this world

In the beginning there were only two: Tawa, the Sun God, and Spider Woman (Kokyanwuhti), the Earth Goddess. All the mysteries and the powers in the Above belonged to Tawa, while Spider Woman controlled the magic of the Below. There was neither man nor woman, bird nor beast, no living thing until these Two willed it to be. In time they decided there should be other gods to share their labors, so Tawa divided himself and there came Muiyinwuh, God of All Life Germs and Spider Woman divided herself and there came Huzruiwuhti, Woman of the Hard Substances (turquoise, silver, coral, shell,etc.). Huzruiwuhti became the wife of Tawa and with him produced Puukonhoya, the Youth, and Palunhoya, the Echo, and later, Hicanavaiya, Man-Eagle, Plumed Serpent and many others. Then did Tawa and Spider Woman have the Great Thought, they would make the Earth to be between the Above and the Below. As Tawa thought the features of the Earth, Spider women formedthem from clay. Then did Tawa think of animals and beasts and plants, all the while Spider Woman formed them from the clay. At last they decided they had enough, then they made great magic and breathed life into their creatures. Now Tawa decided they should make creatures in their image to lord over all the rest. Spider Woman again formed them from clay. Again the Two breathed life into their creations. Spider Woman called all the people so created to follow where she led. Through all the Four Great Caverns of the Underworld she led them, until they finally came to an opening, a sipapu, which led to the earth above.

In the beginning, heaven and earth were not divided. Then, from the ocean of chaos, a reed arose, and that was the eternal land ruler, Kunitokotatchi.

Then came the female God, Izanami, and the male, Izanagi. They stood on the floating bridge of heaven and stirred the ocean with a jewelled spear until it curdled, and so created the first island, Onokoro. They built a house on this island, with a central stone pillar that is the backbone of the world. Izanami walked one way around the pillar, and Izanagi walked the other. When they met face to face, they united in marriage.

Their first child was named Hiruko, but he did not thrive, so when he was three, they placed him in a reed boat and set him adrift, he became Ebisu, God of fishermen.

Then Izanami gave birth to the eight islands of Japan. And finally Izanami began to give birth to the Gods who would fashion and rule the world -- Gods of the sea and Gods of the land, Gods of wind and rain. But when Izanami gave birth to the God of fire, she was badly burned and died.

Izanagi was furious with the fire God and cut him into three pieces. Then he set out to search for Izanami. He went right down into the Land of Gloom looking for her. He called her, saying, "Come back, my love. The lands we are making are not yet finished!"

She came to him, saying, "You are too late. I have already eaten the food of this land, But I would like to return. Wait here for me, and I will ask permission from the spirits of the underworld. But do not try to look at me."

At length, Izanagi got tired of waiting, so he broke off a tooth from the comb he wore in his hair to use as a torch and followed her. When he found her, he saw that she was already rotting and maggots were swarming over her body. She was giving birth to the eight Gods of thunder.

Izanagi drew back, revolted. Izanami called after him, "Shame on you." She commanded the foul spirits of the Land of Gloom to slay him.

The spirits pursued Izanagi, but he managed to escape. He threw down his headdress and it turned into grapes, which the spirits stopped to eat. Then he threw down his comb, which turned into bamboo shoots, and once again the spirits stopped to eat.

By the time Izanagi reached the pass between the land of the dead and the land of the living, Izanami herself had nearly caught up with him. But Izanagi saw her coming and quickly blocked the pass with a huge boulder that it would take a thousand men to lift, so making a permanent barrier between life and death.

Standing on the other side of the boulder, Izanami shouted, "Every day I will kill a thousand people, and bring them to this land!"

Izanagi replied, "Every day I will cause one thousand five hundred babies to be born."

Then Izanagi left Izanami to rule the Land of Gloom, and returned to the land of the living.

ichi

ps please add the Gah! option to all polls

[caesar44]

I do not combine. I believe the Earth was created in 4,5 billion years. Whether God created it is another question.

I can live with that

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Originally Posted by caesar44
4. He who belive's in God , must belive in the Bible therefore , he belive in the 6 days creation

So only christains and Jews believe in god?

[King of Atlantis]

I personally believe that the old testament really teaches us lesson, not history.

not even 80-90% of americans are christian, and few christians take the bible literaly.

I hate when people try to disprove religion by science. The to go hand in hand. Sure, i believe in evultion and the possiblity in the big bang, but i dont see why could couldnt have started it all.

[lars573]

better to believe a "fairy tale" from God than a fairy tale made up by foolish men who think of themselves as all-knowing intellectuals when in reality they no idea what they're talking about

oh yeah, the correct answer is 6 days

If that let's you sleep at night them fine believe it. Just know that I don't, can't, and won't. And nothing you say will make me. If you believe in the judeo-christian bible without question your a fool. How can you take the fairy tales of a desert people from 3000 years ago seriously.

[King of Atlantis]

If that let's you sleep at night them fine believe it. Just know that I don't, can't, and won't. And nothing you say will make me. If you believe in the judeo-christian bible without question your a fool. How can you take the fairy tales of a desert people from 3000 years ago seriously.

actual many christians are incouraged to question their religion.

So do think jesus's concepts are bad, loving your enemy, turning other cheek, being chartitable, keeping the commandments, etc...

[Big_John]

I hate when people try to disprove religion by science. The to go hand in hand.

while i don't think they "go hand in hand", necessarily, certainly it is foolish to use science to try to prove the non-existence of god(s) (which i assume you meant by "disprove religion"). science deals solely in the physical world, and therefor wouldn't be able to make any statement about metaphysical reality (e.g. god), unless it manifests in some way in the physical world. some people believe that the metaphysical does indeed manifest in the natural world (e.g. miracles), and scientific inquiry into such can certainly yield results.

i have seen people use formal logic to try to disprove the possibility of a being such as an omnipotent/omniscient/etc god. i don't know enough about formal logic to follow such proofs, though.

If that let's you sleep at night them fine believe it. Just know that I don't, can't, and won't. And nothing you say will make me. If you believe in the judeo-christian bible without question your a fool. How can you take the fairy tales of a desert people from 3000 years ago seriously.

well, at least you are open-minded about it.

[sharrukin]

If that let's you sleep at night them fine believe it. Just know that I don't, can't, and won't. And nothing you say will make me. If you believe in the judeo-christian bible without question your a fool. How can you take the fairy tales of a desert people from 3000 years ago seriously.

Do you believe in the equality of man? Human rights, the Rule of Law, the Dignity of Man? How much of this is objective reality? We have Capitalists, Marxists, Fascists, Libertarians, Democrats, Rationalists, Anarchists, Totalitarianism, Monarchists, etc. A lot of people claiming to be Jesus, IMO.

The various ideologies like Marxism, Fascism, Liberalism, Democracy, Rationalism, are they not the 'new and improved' fairy tales we tell ourselves? How exactly are ideologies any different than religions?

[Big_John]

How exactly are ideologies any different than religions?

generally speaking, the difference is that not every idealogy makes statements about metaphysical realities.

[Don Corleone]

The creation of the universe was what physicists refer to as a naked singularity. That means that regardless of what happened before it, there is no way to possibly theorize, as all laws of physics cease to exist at that point as you keep moving back in time.

Those of you who proudly proclaim yourselves all knowing and declare that the Big Bang theory, (which I do hold, as a working theory ) is fact shame the theorist, Stephen Hawking. The idea of scientific theories is that it is the best working model until we know more.

Anyone who answered anything other than "I don't know" is letting somebody else do their thinking for them. Be it the scribes in David's royal court (Genesis), or Stephen Hawking (A Brief History of Time) is irrelevant, to assume you KNOW is foolhearty.

[ichi]

So do think jesus's concepts are bad, loving your enemy, turning other cheek, being chartitable, keeping the commandments, etc...

actually I agree with all the Christian virtues you mention, and a few more. Unfortunately too many have done exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught, and done it in his name.

There's a difference between morality and what sharrukin aptly describes as fairy-tales

ichi

[Gawain of Orkeny]

There's a difference between morality and what sharrukin aptly describes as fairy-tales

No thats the difference between true christains and christians in name only.

[ichi]

No thats the difference between true christains and christians in name only.

I not sure, but I think I understand what you're saying. True Christians would never sin in God's name.

I was referring to the distinction between following Christian principles and believing in the Old Testament creation myth, something that you've referred to in earlier posts as metaphor.

ichi

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I was referring to the distinction between following Christian principles and believing in the Old Testament creation myth, something that you've referred to in earlier posts as metaphor.

So am I. To me true christains follow the teachings of Christ. What religous cermonies they attend, what church they belong to or what other beliefs they hold are irrelevant.

[Big_John]

Anyone who answered anything other than "I don't know" is letting somebody else do their thinking for them. Be it the scribes in David's royal court (Genesis), or Stephen Hawking (A Brief History of Time) is irrelevant, to assume you KNOW is foolhearty.

what if i didn't vote at all? would that make me uber-wise??

[Papewaio]

Those of you who proudly proclaim yourselves all knowing and declare that the Big Bang theory, (which I do hold, as a working theory ) is fact shame the theorist, Stephen Hawking. The idea of scientific theories is that it is the best working model until we know more.

Anyone who answered anything other than "I don't know" is letting somebody else do their thinking for them. Be it the scribes in David's royal court (Genesis), or Stephen Hawking (A Brief History of Time) is irrelevant, to assume you KNOW is foolhearty.

Can I claim that I know that the Earth is at least 4.4 billion years old based on the age of zircons found in Western Australia?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Can I claim that I know that the Earth is at least 4.4 billion years old based on the age of zircons found in Western Australia?

Those were either planted there by satan or he has been leading scientists astry all these years. Take your pick.

[sharrukin]

Actually I believe lars573 was the one to first use the term 'fairy-tale'.

If that let's you sleep at night them fine believe it. Just know that I don't, can't, and won't. And nothing you say will make me. If you believe in the judeo-christian bible without question your a fool. How can you take the fairy tales of a desert people from 3000 years ago seriously.

We all have our own favourite 'fairy-tales', it is just that the religious ones are more logical in using an unassailable, unprovable god as the first authority. The ideologies attempt to use rationalism to prove their 'fairy-tales' and it seems largely inadequate for the purpose.

My point was that we should have a little more respect for religion as we, with our modern ideologies, are not really that far from it ourselves. A little humility wouldn't hurt.

[bmolsson]

The question is actually asked incorrectly. Just as pointed out by Redleg it's clear that the bible is using a metaphore. We don't really know how a day was 5 billion years ago, even 10,000 years ago can't really be proven.
The important thing for all parties is to see things objectively and try to understand WHY people in the bible wrote 6 days. Is there any basis for this or not ?

My largest problem in all discussion on evolutionism and creationism is that both sides lacks respects for each other. Scientists and preachers of today are stubborn, rude and fundamentalistic in their views and stands. One of my most important lessons in my dealings with different ethnic groups around the world is to respect them regardless what you think or believe. It's makes things easier and your own mind broader. My discussions with Pindar on creationism is very stimulating and I actually have more or less his position in another discussion with some fundamentalistic muslims. Just don't tell him that....

[lars573]

actual many christians are incouraged to question their religion.

So do think jesus's concepts are bad, loving your enemy, turning other cheek, being chartitable, keeping the commandments, etc...

Lets see. Turning the other cheek is bullsh*t, if someone slaps me I pull a knife and gut them. Charity is weakness. The commandments are a fairy tales and thus not unworthy of being practiced.

Do you believe in the equality of man? Human rights, the Rule of Law, the Dignity of Man? How much of this is objective reality? We have Capitalists, Marxists, Fascists, Libertarians, Democrats, Rationalists, Anarchists, Totalitarianism, Monarchists, etc. A lot of people claiming to be Jesus, IMO.

The various ideologies like Marxism, Fascism, Liberalism, Democracy, Rationalism, are they not the 'new and improved' fairy tales we tell ourselves? How exactly are ideologies any different than religions?

There are some fairy tales that I enjoy, monarchism being one of them. I believe that republicanism is a stain that needs to be wiped from the face of the earth. Equality of man ha, the sad reality is that all men are not created equal. I not entirely convinced that Jesus even existed.

There is only one thing that I truely believe in, human nature.

[Papewaio]

Human nature is to be a gregarious social creature that helps each other... we are not predators like the tiger which can hunt by ourselves.

[Big_John]

Human nature is to be a gregarious social creature that helps each other... we are not predators like the tiger which can hunt by ourselves.

that's a bit simplistic, don't you think?