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Thread: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

  1. #1

    Default Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Hello.

    Ive been editing stats for shogun,
    I have ended up with this
    http://freespace.virgin.net/shambles...Sham_Stats.exe

    Its Almost the 1.03 stats,
    But its not quite,

    I edited a few of the stats, And gave mounted archers slightly better range, (after all they do have a height advantage being on horse back)

    the muskets arent as powerfull as they are in v1.02
    and I hope that it evens out the game a bit more,


    prehaps on the next tourniment these stats can be used.
    So i need them to be looked at Soo..
    Could some 1 who would relize problems with the stats try it out?

    Feed back would be nice :) (good or bad)

    Thanx
    ShambleS

  2. #2

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Post all the changes you made.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Here are the origional stats.
    Length, Frequency, Range, Speed, Accuracy, Power, Reload, Is a gun?, Is Waterproof?

    Longbow
    {
    25, 11, 5000, 150, 0.6, 0.5, 6, 0, 1
    }

    Mounted Longbow
    {
    25, 11, 5000, 150, 0.4, 0.5, 6, 0, 1
    }

    Arquebus
    {
    0, 15, 4000, 230, 0.12, 8.0, 33, 1, 0
    }

    Musket
    {
    0, 15, 5000, 230, 0.17, 4.0, 24, 1, 1
    }


    And here are the 1s ive edited,

    Longbow
    {
    35, 11, 5000, 150, 0.6, 0.5, 6, 0, 1
    }

    Mounted Longbow
    {
    20, 11, 5100, 150, 0.4, 0.5, 6, 0, 1
    }

    Arquebus
    {
    0, 15, 4000, 230, 0.12, 6.0, 33, 1, 0
    }

    Musket
    {
    0, 15, 5000, 230, 0.16, 3.6, 27, 1, 1
    }


    The new 1s use a good deal of v1.03 stats,
    And the main diferences are to
    Mounted archers,

    Who gain extra range,
    Loose some accuracy,
    And now have same power as foot archers,

    As you can see the muskets use the v1.03 stats as they seem to be best ballanced.

    I started to do this simply becous i did not see why mounted archers did not receve a slight range bonuse seeing as they were 4 feet higher in the air.

    Also alot mentioned the muskets were a problem so they did not wish to play in the tourniment.
    So i hope to fix it :)

    ShambleS





    P.S
    THESE STATS WERE MADE FOR STW WE v1.02
    Last edited by Shambles; 07-03-2005 at 17:08.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    I believe mounted longbows have the same range because they have a shorter bow (can't carry a longer bow on horseback). I'm wary of changing the 1.02 ranged stats as many were not happy with the 1.03 ranged stats. A better way to weaken musks is to lower their defense to make cav charges easier. This is what 1.03 did, but it also weakened muskets firepower.

    The real problem with 1.02 as I see it is that the h2h is resolved to fast for finesse, there is not enough time for flanking. When I was messing around with stats I managed to fix that, but I made to many other changes and it didn't work very well.

    If you are interested in a stats project we could try and work something out together. Making it required for a tournament is a sure way of getting people to try it out.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Regarding mounted archer bow length,
    The v1.02 game stats say they have the same length bow.
    25-25.

    the long bow then gets lengthend in v1.03 stats by 10 up to 35
    and mounted archers bow is shortend. by 5 to a length of 20.
    ---------------------------

    i dont wish to weaken muskets defences as They have low morrale and weakening there defences wil inevitably lead to an early rout.

    Im considering useing the v 1.01 Projectile stats for muskets,
    Being power of 16.

    v1.02 uses 24 , and thats to much.
    Im currently using 8 which is not very realistic either.

    But if i change power back to v1.0 stats then il need to think of De creasing the accuracy slightly from the 2 gun powder units,
    I.e
    from 0.7 to 0.6 (Muskets)
    and
    from 0.7 to 0.5 (abusquiters)
    archers and mounted archers also loose acuracy,

    This should help a little.

    id still prefer mounted archers to get aproximatly 4 feet of range advantage over the foot archers.
    But They should also Have considerably worse accuracy.

    I hope that will make a enjoyable and slightly more chalanging unit stat.
    Last edited by Shambles; 07-03-2005 at 18:03.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Lowering defense does not lower morale.

    Regardless of realism, there are important gameplay considerations behind the ranges of the units. Being able to fire without being shot back at is too great an advantage, and the cavalry archers are already powerful.

    I also don't see how being up on a horse (unstable platform) is going to allow you to shoot farther.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    SO standing on a hill wont let you shoot futher than a guy whos not on the hill?

    Only difrence unstable plat form makes is accuracy.

    And yari cav are what beat cav archers,
    So theres no advantage unless you do not Have the correct units to defend your land.

    and lowering defence may not lower morrale but it does mean more people will die faster and that does lower morrale.

    EDIT.

    ive edited a lil more after your earlier comments,
    here are the revized stats.

    Longbow
    {
    25, 11, 5000, 150, 0.5, 0.5, 6, 0, 1
    }

    Mounted Longbow
    {
    25, 11, 5100, 150, 0.3, 0.5, 6, 0, 1
    }

    Arquebus
    {
    0, 15, 4000, 230, 0.6, 6.0, 24, 1, 0
    }

    Musket
    {
    0, 15, 5000, 230, 0.7, 3.6, 16, 1, 1
    }


    Please note.

    MOUNTED LONGBOW RANGE,
    I dont know how much futher they are able to fire,
    I want them to fire around 4 feet futher than foot archers.
    But i will aslo concider reducing there rate of fire slightly.
    Last edited by Shambles; 07-03-2005 at 18:07.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Quote Originally Posted by Shambles
    SO standing on a hill wont let you shoot futher than a guy whos not on the hill?

    Only difrence unstable plat form makes is accuracy.
    3 feet is not a hill



    And yari cav are what beat cav archers,
    So theres no advantage unless you do not Have the correct units to defend your land.
    Your mp inexperience is showing through here. Perhaps we can play a game and you can show me how you will catch my ca with your yari cav

    and lowering defence may not lower morale but it does mean more people will die faster and that does lower morrale.
    Defense does not protect against bullets...they will die faster from cavalry which is what I said.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    3 feet is not a hill


    Your mp inexperience is showing through here. Perhaps we can play a game and you can show me how you will catch my ca with your yari cav
    Yes please

  10. #10

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Well, I'm online.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Well, your hon4 yari cav killed 15 and 16. My hon0 cav archers killed 87, 38, and 27.

    When you play a game and kill 174 while losing 816...you are not ready to make a stats mod. You have to know how the game works and be good at playing it.
    Last edited by Sasaki Kojiro; 07-03-2005 at 18:49.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    So If you cant drive. You cant designe a new car engine?
    Interesting.

  13. #13
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
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    Zen Garden
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    2,715

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Peace bruthas . Modding stats effectively is a difficult thing to do. So much to balance, and as Puzz3D has pointed out many times, some of the parameters that really should be taken into consideration are hardcoded and cannot be modded (cost etc.). It's also a bit subjective, as has been demonstrated in this exchange.

    Making your own stats can be fun and enlightening Shambles m8, and I can see why you'd want to give it a shot. The thing is, I wouldn't expect a whole lotta people to want to use them. It's been done time and time again, by teams of exceptionally visual meets math-oriented players with years of TW experience behind them, and a dominant modded stat still hasn't emerged. Some believe (and I tend to lean towards their opinion), that the "perfect" stat is not attainable because required elements are not moddable. Experiment with your stats m8, just be realistic when you present it to the community.

    For me personally, 1.02, 1.03, and 1.05 provide enough flexibility and decent gameply to enjoy myself with my m8s who like to play, and that's all that matters to me at this point.

    Lol Sasaki, sometimes you come off like such a meanie ... . But I understand where you're coming from.
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


    misc kanryodo

  14. #14

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Quote Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin
    Lol Sasaki, sometimes you come off like such a meanie ... . But I understand where you're coming from.
    I don't want to come online for a game and find the only 3 people there using a crapass stat which for some arbitrary reason switched the gas and the brake pedals and added a "horn" pedal while putting the turn signal on a clapper, one clap for left turn and 2 claps for right, too use Shambles analogy

    Personally I think there could be an improved stat. But it would take a lot of time and knowhow to make it.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    :P In that case i can keep on trying :)

  16. #16

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    We did experiment with longer ranges for archers when developing v1.03 for STW/MI. For v1.02, it wasn't an option to change the range from 5000. The archers were carefully balanced against the muskets in v1.02, but that balance was disrupted when the muskets were changed from power 3 to power 4 late in the testing because there wasn't enough time to rebalance the archers which would have, in turn, affected other aspects of the gameplay.

    For v1.03, we ended up leaving the archers the same range as muskets and brought the muskets back into balance with them by reducing the power to 3.6 and increasing the reload by 3 seconds. The reason we didn't go with lesser effective but longer range archers was that, in practice, all the player with the muskets had to do was run up within range of the archers and he would win the shootout. So our idea was that muskets and archers would more or less offset each other, although, some players don't think they should necessarily offset. The problem with having one longer range than the other is balancing it because if one is even slightly more effective than the other, that one is all you will ever see in MP.

    The history of the muskets is as follows. The range is 5000 for all versions except v1.05 in which muskets are 4800 and archers are 5200.

    STW v1.12: speed = 250, accuracy = 0.12, power = 4, reload = 21, don't fire in rain.
    STW/MI v1.01: speed = 250, accuracy = 0.12, power = 16, reload = 21, do fire in rain.
    STW/MI v1.02: speed = 230, accuracy = 0.17, power = 4, reload = 24, do fire in rain.
    STW/MI v1.03: speed = 230, accuracy = 0.16, power = 3.6, reload = 27, do fire in rain.
    STW/MI v1.05: speed = 230, accuracy = 0.16, power = 4.2, reload = 25, do fire in rain.

    Sam Wars 10b for MTW/VI v1.2:
    Portuguese teppo: speed = 250, accuracy 0.12, power = 4, reload = 21, don't fire in rain.
    Japanese teppo: speed = 250, accuracy = 0.16, power = 4, reload = 21, don't fire in rain.


    The STW/MI v1.01 musket is a misleading stat because power above 8 doesn't increase effectiveness. I believe that the power on guns was increased from the original value of 4 by Creative Assembly because they accidentally added +12 morale to all units in STW/MI v1.0. That +12 morale was removed in STW/MI v1.01, but then the overpowered guns became apparent. So, CA allowed a team of community players to make a v1.02 rebalanced stat. The trouble was we didn't know what stats the guns had in STW v1.12, and many players wanted the back kills in STW reduced anyway. So, we did reduced the back kills after a huge amount of testing to determine how the guns worked by decreasing the speed of the projectile which makes the trajectory a higher arc. I've come to realize that those back kills in STW v1.12 are an important part of the gameplay. It means you can't bring supporting units up close behind your guns. So, the guns are more exposed and subject to being charged by cavalry unless you are on your toes and quick to react to the threat. The gameplay is a result of a balance between distances and movement speed, and also how long units fight.

    The muskets in STW v1.12 produce an average of 1 kill per volley on a YS unit at range 5000 when firing in 3 ranks (20 gun volley). The muskets in STW/MI v1.02 are more than twice as effective getting an average of about 3 kills per volley under the same circumstances. That difference means that while cav can charge muskets in STW v1.12 it can't do it in STW/MI v1.02. This is a drastic change in the tactics of the gameplay. In STW/MI v1.03, the tactics return to one where cav can charge muskets, and the fighting time between units was lengthened, by shifting one combat point from attack to defend, to bring back infantry flanking tactics which had been lost due to a slowing of infantry footspeed in v1.02. We could have done that by keeping the original infantry movement speeds, but some players thought the game then played too fast since a fix to the network code in STW/MI had made the online game run faster than STW v1.12.

    I can't comment much on the gameplay of STW/MI v1.05 because I haven't played it enough. The increased power on muskets to 4.2 looks suspicious to me eventhough the range is slightly less than 5000 since the muskets were already substantially more effective than archers in v1.02. The reload of 25 seconds is a mistake because reload is supposed to be in multiples of 3 for the 3 rank fire timing.

    This brings me to Samurai Wars 10b for MTW/VI v2.1 which is an attempt to get back to the gameplay of STW v1.12. Parameters you can't control in STW/MI such as unit cost and anti-cav bonus are controllable in MTW/VI. The Portuguese teppo are back to the original stats of muskets in STW v1.12 including not firing in the rain and the original velocity which affects the range and ratio of the back kills to target kills. They give the same kills per volley as the muskets get in STW v1.12 which is 1 kill per 20 gun volley on YS at 5000 range.

    After extensive testing, it was determined that the gameplay could support a musket which was 1.5 times more effective than the original muskets, and not be overpowering vs archers. In fact, the original muskets are somewhat weak. So, instead of having the even weaker arquebusier, we made the more expensive Japanese teppo give 1.5 kills per 20 gun volley on YS at 5000 range by increasing the accuracy from 0.12 to 0.16. This accuracy of 0.16 is very close to the accuracy of muskets in STW/MI v1.02, but the kills per volley are only about half of what you get in STW/MI v1.02 possibly due to the difference in the speed of the projectile which changes the trajectory.

    The Japanese teppo unit can still be charged frontally by HC or NC. Using YC for that is extremely risky due to it's lower morale. A full 60 gun volley at close range will drop about 15 cav which will rout a YC, but not an NC or HC. Although you can succeed, it's costly to charge unweakened guns since HC cost 20 koku per man and 15 men cost 300 koku while the whole Japanese teppo costs 300.
    Last edited by Puzz3D; 07-04-2005 at 14:22.

    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


    Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2

  17. #17
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Chushingura
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    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    When you play a game and kill 174 while losing 816...you are not ready to make a stats mod. You have to know how the game works and be good at playing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    Your mp inexperience is showing through here. Perhaps we can play a game and you can show me how you will catch my ca with your yari cav
    Sasaki, you're the best MP player there is, remember? And shambles hasn't been playing mp for that long. Please be a little more gentle with him, as he's the one who is running the server where we all play now.

    besides, if shambles would create 'crap-stats' then no one would use them.

    Good luck shambles!
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  18. #18

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    The Japanese cav archer was given the lbow with less ammo so that the sbow could be used to represent the compoound bow that the Mongol cav archers used. Neither v1.02 or v1.03 successfully balanced the Mongols against the Japanese. The v1.05 was an attempt to improve the Mongols relative to the Japanese, but the extremely skewed prices of the Mongol cav units makes it very hard to balance.

    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


    Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2

  19. #19

    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Muskets are able to shoot at a range of. 5000

    That is in units of what?
    5000 feet, Yards, meeters, pixels?

  20. #20
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats For shogun Need to be checked,

    Each map tile is 2000 x 2000. 5000 = 100 meters.


    CBR

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