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  1. #1
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Liberals Hate Christianity

    This should be interesting

    Liberals Hate Christianity

    Liberals disdain the concepts of right and wrong, dismissing them as unscientific value judgments. Their only acknowledged virtue is what they call “tolerance.” Tolerance, however, does not extend to Christianity.

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    In an August 28, 2004 article for the Associated Press, Richard N. Ostling notes, “After years of talk about the centrality of conservative Protestants and Catholics in the Republican Party coalition, an opposite factor is gaining wider notice: the Democrats’ reliance upon non-religious voters.”

    And, “A religiously linked values clash is redefining U.S. politics, according to Louis Bolce and Gerald De Maio of City University of New York. And if Republicans are labeled the party of religious traditionalists, they assert, “the Democrats with equal validity, can be called the secularist party.”

    A University of Akron poll of 4,000 adults this spring showed that those with no religious affiliation are 17 percent of self-identified Democrats, rivaling the party’s traditional blocs of white Catholics (18 percent) and black Protestants (16 percent). The secularists favored John Kerry over George W. Bush by 57.4 percent to 27.2 percent (with the rest backing others or undecided).”

    Political maneuvering in the Presidential race so far this year has made clear that an articulate and highly vocal part of our citizenry don’t just oppose Christianity. They hate it.

    When a candidate gives witness to his Christian faith, liberals roar like wounded beasts, declaring that this will destroy American freedoms.

    All of this is cloaked as sincere devotion to the First Amendment’s establishment clause. Underneath that cloak is the real objective: to establish secular and materialistic socialism as the nation’s official religion. Liberal organizations like the ACLU don’t just want Christianity separated from legislative and executive governance. They want to destroy Christianity and elevate socialism as the governing catechism of political life.

    Maggie Gallagher, in a recent column, reports the following, fairly typical attack:

    “Robert Reich, a former Cabinet secretary, implies in a recent issue of the “American Prospect” that Christian fundamentalists are even more dangerous than people who blow up skyscrapers. And he defines fundamentalism awfully broadly: ‘Terrorism is a tactic, not a belief. The true battle will be between modern civilization and anti-modernist; between those who believe in the primacy of the individual and those who believe that human beings owe their allegiance and identity to a higher authority ... between those who believe in science, reason and logic, and those who believe that truth is revealed through Scripture and religious dogma. Terrorism will disrupt and destroy lives. But terrorism itself is not the greatest danger we face.’ “

    There are three important points to be noted: first, socialism is a secular religion, second, liberalism is the American sect of the international religion of socialism; and, third, liberals cannot be shaken from their religious faith by the unremitting evidence that their religion always fails to deliver the goods.

    For details to support these assertions, see
    Socialism: Our Unconstitutionally Established Religion

    Socialism has failed to deliver on its promises wherever it has been tried, but our liberals simply refuse to abandon it. They remain confident in their secular religious faith that, if they can just push Christians into the ash can of history, a nice, perfect new world can be created by intellectuals running the Federal bureaucracy.

    In the religion of liberal-socialism, morality comes, not from God-given natural law, but from the fevered imaginations of intellectual style-setters.

    We already know some of the marks of secular perfection in the liberals’ Brave New World: legalized abortion on demand, encouraging sexual promiscuity by distributing condoms in school and teaching young students how to use them; and same-sex marriage. The end point of secular, materialistic socialism is obliterating individuality and personal moral responsibility. We all are to be submerged into classes of more or less equally distributed income and wealth.

    As in the Soviet Union, liberal-socialistic planners like Robert Reich are certain that most of the goods and services we buy today are bad for us and bad for the environment. They want to compel us to behave in the proper manner, that is, to buy what they decide is best for us.

    The only thing they don’t propose to regulate is the raw sex and violence that pervades TV, movies, and the print media.
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  2. #2
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    Religious people (and ideals) holding too much power in a state is always a bad thing. Liberals are just trying to keep the christians honest (a full time job IMO). By the same tokin too much socialism will always end up strangling a successful state.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    liberals doesnt hate christianity - they just hate religion all together.
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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    The entire term 'liberal' is mishandled here. I'm a liberal, but I don't hate religion. I love capitalism. I hate communism. I'm a right-winger, but not a conservative. Yes, it's possible. In America, the term is just misused.


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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    liberals doesnt hate christianity - they just hate religion all together.
    Is that so? Did you look at my other thread?

    Socialism: Our Unconstitutionally Established National Religion
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    this article is a realistic but biased editorialization of truth
    and there is alot of that truth in it

    the only thing that i can see as wrong is the equation of socialism as secular

    it isnt - maybe modern socialism is for the most part secular, but the concepts of many versions, i believe, are based on religious morality

    the secular socialism that i fight is the one that proposes that we must all enter into some sort of huge collectivisation program because of egoism rather than altruism

    some forms of socialism are prevalent in traditional christian communities on a massive scale and a bit of government sanctioned socialism as a safety net can easily be subscribed to by christian moralists.

    to villify "socialism" as anti-religious is a serious mistake from my point of view. it is the secular kind that is absolutely self-defeating in the long run

    who knows

    i am not religious (logically, i think that it is absurd to believe in a God or moral code, yet i still seek it because there is no real alternative that is more sensible), but any government that legislates without beliefs in a superlative moral code cannot be trusted or respected. if it isnt "wrong" for me to kill or steal then it is agaisnt my interests to have anyone force me not to from a darwinian point of view. It is ok that the govt would protect me, but not ok that it would protect others

    who knows
    this is part of a larger debate of modernism and the meaning of life
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 07-04-2005 at 00:52.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    I actually disagree with this article. The Methodist church I belong to is more liberal than conservative, but there's folks of every ilk there on any given Sunday.

    I don't think Liberals hate religion, per se. They hate the the socially conservative narrow view that the Southern Baptists tend to take. They also seem to be struggling with the fact that they have a need to 'keep it in the closet'. There's a good book we're reviewing in my Sunday school class called "God's politics". I disagree with his whitewashing of important social issues as irrelevant such as abortion and gay marriage, but I also agree they probably occupy too much of our current debate on morality and what it means to be Christlike.

    The fact is, regardless of the reasons, as long as there are children out there starving to death and I'm wondering whether I want a steak or swordfish, I'm in trouble when I die. Yes, behavioral morality is important. I'm called on to follow God's commandments and push myself hard towards Christ's message on personal purity. But I'm also called on to follow the two commandments that are the greatest, according to Christ: To love my God with all my heart and all my soul, and to to love others as I love myself.

    I think we need to stop defining a life of Christian witness as being willing to go picket the neighborhood smut shop, or at least limit it to that, and understand when we didn't do all we could to help our brothers and sisters, it was though we snubbed Christ. Cause he told us that's how we was going to take it.
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    we may be missing the point of the article

    "liberals" dont necessarily have a problem with the christ-like message,
    the new problems that have arisen come from the logical and historical inconsistencies that created modern christianity in the first place

    and these are the reasons that the entire christian religion is being called to task on WHY they believe what they believe

    the idea that God did not, in fact, come up with christian morality seriously takes away from its existence as a legitimate moral code. If men decided what was right and wrong and the religion is fallacious, then it is a waste of time to believe in the various tenants

    this is where the problem comes from - not benign vs malignant versions of christianity - but from the inherent illogical and potentially man-made and false world view of christianity in general. these make the entire concept ridiculous to follow to the letter.

    i dont honestly know what christianity can do to save itself - all it can rely on to stay afloat is ignorance in the presence of certain facts relating to various church histories, blind devotion to an archaic faith and a difficult to follow moral code. when you look at how easy it is to abandon christian ideals when shown a hedonistic modern cultural alternative, it will be amazing to see if the various churches can hold out.

    but the death of christianity has been heralded before and, for some odd reason, it has never ceased to exist so far
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 07-04-2005 at 01:33.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    yes liberals hate Christianity

    but that is not news

    i pointed this out in my old thread that proved that everyone who does not have the wisdom to realize who Jesus is, will hate Christianity and anyone who stands up for what is good. i'd provide a link to that thread but the search function of these boards is still fubared at the moment

  10. #10
    Chief Sniffer Senior Member ichi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    yes liberals hate Christianity

    but that is not news
    well its news to me, and its not true

    i pointed this out in my old thread that proved that everyone who does not have the wisdom to realize who Jesus is, will hate Christianity and anyone who stands up for what is good.
    I realize who Jesus was, and I don't hate Christianity.

    and, anyone will be way off base thinking that only Christians stand up for what what is good. I know thousands of good people who get up every day and try to do the right thing who don't consider themselves Christians.

    This idea is why some people worry about a fundamental Christian theocracy. Not that they hate Christians, but that some Christians mistakenly believe that only they cansee and do good, and the rest of us must be brought into line.

    ichi
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by ichi
    well its news to me, and its not true



    I realize who Jesus was, and I don't hate Christianity.

    and, anyone will be way off base thinking that only Christians stand up for what what is good. I know thousands of good people who get up every day and try to do the right thing who don't consider themselves Christians.

    This idea is why some people worry about a fundamental Christian theocracy. Not that they hate Christians, but that some Christians mistakenly believe that only they cansee and do good, and the rest of us must be brought into line.

    ichi
    firstly, those people would be fooling themselves
    they are doing what is "right" based on the scale of right/wrong provided by whom? a vague notion of the "most important" parts of what they heard when they were children from people who based their ideas on judeo-christian/other Religious Ideas. If these Religions never had the authority to decide what was good/bad in the first place, how can one maintain that a byproduct of them based entirely on them is good? i'd like to know that for my own sake

    the second statement is accurate - i also fear that
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 07-04-2005 at 04:51.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
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    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    So, am I a Liberal?

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    Better question was Jesus a conservative Rabbi or a liberal Rabbi?
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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    Better question was Jesus a conservative Rabbi or a liberal Rabbi?
    Maybe he was a Pagan ......

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    boy of DESTINY Senior Member Big_John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanamori
    So, am I a Liberal?
    well, a first test would be to ask yourself: do you hate christianity? if the answer is yes, you may very well be a liberal (it's not certain though). however, if the answer is no, then you're not. easy as 1, 2, cake.
    now i'm here, and history is vindicated.

  16. #16
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    well, a first test would be to ask yourself: do you hate christianity? if the answer is yes, you may very well be a liberal (it's not certain though). however, if the answer is no, then you're not. easy as 1, 2, cake.
    If you read the article hes actually caliming that Liberal/securalists/socialists are the danger not liberals in themselves. I dont know any rightwing securlarists/socialists but I guess there are some.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    Yet another flame-bait article from Gawain with no author, no publication, no link, nada. Where exactly did this theocon screed come from? Who wrote it? Who paid for it?
    My My we get up on the wrong side of the bed today? I didnt write the title but did find it provocative and worthy of disscussion. Yes I like to use provocative titles as it gets peoples interest. Its not a flame bait.

    Gawain, as a courtesy to all of the not-as-conservative-as-you people whom you're trying to infuriate, please cite your sources.
    How long have you been using the internet? Do you know how to google?Ive just learned recently how to do it. I didnt have a computer on the internet until I joined the org. I couldnt even cut and paste till someone here taught me . So let this noob give you a little lesson. You see the name of this thread. Well type in into google like I just did and the first match that comes up is this.

    LINK

    Now dont act is if you didnt know that. The same can be said of any thread I post. This aint calculus. I dont see where it came from is going to make any differenve though. Now calm down annd try a little pateince all you need do is ask or use the enormous Lemurmania brain you have. I could likewise accuse you of being lazy and baiting me but I wont go there.
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 07-04-2005 at 04:52.
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    Chief Sniffer Senior Member ichi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    they are doing what is "right" based on the scale of right/wrong provided by whom?
    by their parents, by their society, by their own internal sense of right and wrong. Religions, including Christian religions, have asked people to do some pretty awful things. To be honest, I'm comfortable making my own decisions about good and bad.

    It's rather a nice feeling, to do whats right, and to do it because its right, and you know it to be right, not because someone told you to do or because if you don'tdo it you'll burn in hell.

    and we'll just have to disagree about who is fooling themselves

    ichi
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by ichi
    by their parents, by their society, by their own internal sense of right and wrong. Religions, including Christian religions, have asked people to do some pretty awful things. To be honest, I'm comfortable making my own decisions about good and bad.

    It's rather a nice feeling, to do whats right, and to do it because its right, and you know it to be right, not because someone told you to do or because if you don'tdo it you'll burn in hell.

    and we'll just have to disagree about who is fooling themselves

    ichi
    so, you believe that inside you know what is right and wrong?

    then what about me? do i know, inside, what is right and wrong?

    i believe that abortion is wrong
    this is a core belief of mine

    you may believe that it is right

    if "deep down" we both know what is right - and we disagree - chances are that one of us is wrong. and deep down right and wrong wouldnt be worth too much. if one person says murder for ones own convenience is ok and another says it is the worst possible thing to do - how can both be right or wrong?

    how can we have a government that protects both what is right and wrong based on everyone's individual beliefs? wouldnt there be serious conflicts of interests there? some people believe that human sacrifice is ok - those being sacrificed probably do not.

    who are we then to tell the sacrificer that, even though, deep down, they believe that human sacrifice is right, we have the right to stop them?

    im just looking to someone who believes so firmly that they know the way to give me some guidance here, ichi - if you would be so kind

    because i am sort of lost
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 07-04-2005 at 05:09.
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  20. #20
    Chief Sniffer Senior Member ichi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    so, you believe that inside you know what is right and wrong?
    I believe that I am as qualified as any to seek the truth, and that I can be as right or wrong about things as much as any religion can be. Some questions can be very difficult, perhaps too difficult.

    then what about me? do i know, inside, what is right and wrong?
    I don't know you, but my guess is that you have a moral framework that tells you whether a certain thing is good or bad. Like me, you may not get it right each time.

    i believe that abortion is wrong
    this is a core belief of mine

    you may believe that it is right
    I actually find abortion to be abhorrent, but believe it is not the responsibility of the State to dictate whether a woman must carry a child to term (unless it is so late in the pregnancy that the fetus would be able to survive independently)

    if "deep down" we both know what is right - and we disagree - chances are that one of us is wrong. and deep down right and wrong wouldnt be worth too much. if one person says murder for ones own convenience is ok and another says it is the worst possible thing to do - how can both be right or wrong?
    You mistake my contention that moral values exist independent of the Christian religion with a purely subjective morality. Murder for one's own convenience is always wrong, because it violates the rights of the murdered and would lead to a collapse of society.

    how can we have a government that protects both what is right and wrong based on everyone's individual beliefs?
    We can't. As a society we must define some common ground, which can be done independent of any religious values. The principles of fairness and equality can help us find this, as it has in the US.

    wouldnt there be serious conflicts of interests there? some people believe that human sacrifice is ok - those being sacrificed probably do not.
    Human sacrifice without the consent of those being sacrificed is clearly a violation of the concepts of fairness and equality. Each individual is entitled to some basic rights, one of which is not be killed for another's convenience or to appease someone else's god.

    who are we then to tell the sacrificer that, even though, deep down, they believe that human sacrifice is right, we have the right to stop them?
    Since I, for one, do not wish to be sacrificed to any god, then not only do I have the right, but the obligation to protect those being sacrificed. We do that by banding together as free and independent people, sacrificing our ability to murder others in order to protect ourselves from being murdered.

    im just looking to someone who believes so firmly that they know the way to give me some guidance here, ichi - if you would be so kind
    looking past the sarcasm I'll try to do the right thing and respond as best I can. First, I do not think that I have all of the answers. I believe that a religion can be just as misguided and wrong in it's beliefs as any person or government, and that by continuing to strive to do what is right, and learning from my (and others) mistakes and successes, I can continue to improve and better life my life doing what is right.

    The difference between this philosophy and the theological imperative is that I make decisions for myself, in the context of my society, rather than doing what someone tells me is God's will. The person telling me what God's will is has no more of an insight than I do.

    because i am sort of lost
    Kepp working at it mate, it'll come to you

    ichi
    Last edited by ichi; 07-04-2005 at 05:53.
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    boy of DESTINY Senior Member Big_John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by ichi
    by their parents, by their society, by their own internal sense of right and wrong. Religions, including Christian religions, have asked people to do some pretty awful things. To be honest, I'm comfortable making my own decisions about good and bad.

    It's rather a nice feeling, to do whats right, and to do it because its right, and you know it to be right, not because someone told you to do or because if you don'tdo it you'll burn in hell.

    and we'll just have to disagree about who is fooling themselves
    well.. one should certainly examine why they would "know [something] to be right". otherwise, why should you pass the judgement implicit in the statement, "Religions, including Christian religions, have asked people to do some pretty awful things"? how do you decide what is awful? that ethic is coming from somewhere.. and barring people that grew-up outside of society, that ethic is going to be at least somewhat (if not heavily) influenced by the ethical frameworks surrounding the person as they mature. for almost anyone, that's going to involve the influence of some religion.
    now i'm here, and history is vindicated.

  22. #22
    Chief Sniffer Senior Member ichi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_John
    well.. one should certainly examine why they would "know [something] to be right". otherwise, why should you pass the judgement implicit in the statement, "Religions, including Christian religions, have asked people to do some pretty awful things"?
    Burning people at the stake for failing to recant their religious views is by almost any view, awful. The thing speak for itself.

    how do you decide what is awful?
    Because I know that being burned at the stake is horrible, and that I wouldn't want to be burned at the stake, I can say that it is wrong to do such a thing to others because of their religious beliefs.

    that ethic is coming from somewhere.. and barring people that grew-up outside of society, that ethic is going to be at least somewhat (if not heavily) influenced by the ethical frameworks surrounding the person as they mature. for almost anyone, that's going to involve the influence of some religion.
    I concur, and I've said elsewhere many times that I try to live a Jesus asked us, love each of my brothers, turn he other cheek, etc. The influence of religion is evident throughout our society.

    That said, I'll continue to believe that the light shines as brightly on me as does on you, or some self-proclaimed holy man. Society can enforce behavior based on standards of fairness and equality and the common good.

    ichi
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    boy of DESTINY Senior Member Big_John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    ok, thanks for clearing up your stance for me.
    now i'm here, and history is vindicated.

  24. #24
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Liberals Hate Christianity

    Maybe I should throw in that one of the worst things that happened to Christianity was the Catholic Church. I don´t call the Catholic Church christian because it simply isn´t.
    Jesus never sid one should crusade, he never said one should burn infidels, instead he said one should love his enemies. And tell me where the bible said that there should be any pope who represents God and is elected by men after more than one poll. If God would know who shall be pope, why would they need more than one poll? Can´t the Catholic god decide or what? Now where did the bible say one should pray to holy people who are dead? Doesn´t it say we should let the dead rest?
    The bible also says one shall not make pictures of God, but yet the Catholic Church painted old men with beards everywhere.

    Don´t take them as an example for Christianity please, I could probably come up with more things like that, but I think that´s enough for now.


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