Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 64

Thread: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

  1. #1

    Default Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Why there is so dominating thinking that Germany had superior military machine than other countries in WWII? Ok, superior against France`s, Poland`s etc. but not superior than Soviets. Soviets had the best military technic all war and even after that and also this country was more prepared for war than even Germany, but still there is opinion in almost every history book, that Germany had best weapons for "Blizkrieg" etc.

    Tactics and comanders were good, but that`s all.

    Your opinions?

  2. #2
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,674

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Considering the amount of support that Russia got from the rest of the allies, that it was fighting only on one front since the Japanese were busy attacking the Americans and British in the Pacific.

    Britain was fighting in South East Asia, North Africa and at home.

    Nor was Russia that prepared before or during the war given the amount of purging going on.

    Compare all of the main players with the USA and its production capacity, and despite being at War the USA's standard of living rose.

    Economically the power house by volume was the USA.

    Number of fronts fighting on was the British.

    Russia tactics of meat grinder is not really the sign of great genius. More rifles, machine guns and training while maintaining a solid NCO core and keeping the more brilliant officers would have served Russia far better.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    Considering the amount of support that Russia got from the rest of the allies, that it was fighting only on one front since the Japanese were busy attacking the Americans and British in the Pacific.

    Britain was fighting in South East Asia, North Africa and at home.

    Nor was Russia that prepared before or during the war given the amount of purging going on.

    Compare all of the main players with the USA and its production capacity, and despite being at War the USA's standard of living rose.

    Economically the power house by volume was the USA.

    Number of fronts fighting on was the British.

    Russia tactics of meat grinder is not really the sign of great genius. More rifles, machine guns and training while maintaining a solid NCO core and keeping the more brilliant officers would have served Russia far better.

    Hmm, OK Russia had only one front, but this was the main front of all war. Here was broken neck of Hitler`s army, not on secondary theatres as Africa etc.

    Soviets also had better tanks than all other in war involved countries and their amount were larger than all countries had together. More or less same with all equipment starting from infantry weapons, ending with artilery etc. OK, Germany, USA or Britain had some specific units better than Soviets, but whole system was far superior.

    Russian tactics? Hmm, it`s historical for them, especially in such type of country. One of Stalin`s aforisms says everything - "Death of one man - tragedy, death of hundreds - statistic".
    Heavy casualties in the beginning of war were only because of Soviets plans to attack Germany first. Actually this was one of the main points that Germany wrote in in oficial declaration of war which was passed by Shulenburg to Molotov in Moscow.

  4. #4
    Member Member The Electric Celt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Yorkshire,where the history comes from
    Posts
    38

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    I'm sure there will be more enlightened souls than I on this topic,however I'll chuck my tu'pence worth in.
    The Germans pioneered the concept of mechanised Blitzkrieg and this did involve new and devastating tech. advances.The dive bombers that debuted in the 1935 Spanish civil war and various fast,light panzers that only later were superceded by the Tiger and super Tiger,these were one of the reich's mistakes on the Eastern front,Hitler opting for quality whilst the Soviets were able to churn out T 34's (Cheaper, inferior but in vast quantities).Russia only had numbers on it's side not tech.
    Lest we forget superior German U boats,the V.1,V.2 and the German led developement of the A bomb.
    I'll let someone more learned take over,but as an afterthought would be interested in why you feel the German army was not so advanced,
    Cheers
    BREED MORE CONSUMERS

    Everyone's entitled to my opinion

  5. #5
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fortress of the Mountains
    Posts
    11,234

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Ahh.... One of my favourite topics...Germany in the WWII...

    Germany was a powerhouse in the Second World War... It not only had brilliant commanders( see Edwin Rommel, Hermann Goering...) and numbers but it also had great technology and scientists.... Technology like King Tiger tanks, V1 and V2 missiles, heavy water( Telemark Research Base, Rjukan, Norway), great ships( Bismarck, Tirpitz) and last but not least, the Luftwaffe, helped them very much.... Too bad that they didn't have enough numbers of them at the end of the war....

    And the medium level of technology was high also.... Look at the main battle tank, Panzer Kapmfwagen 4.... Very good medium tank, which was the equal of the Sherman....

    If the USA hadn't come into the war, Germany easily could have become a superpower.... They helped the URSS which was responsible for destroying Hitler's army and country..... USA helped rebuild the Russian economy, which translated in thousands of T34 tanks..... USA also helped the British, who were nearly over in 1940 and 1941.......
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  6. #6
    Member Member The Electric Celt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Yorkshire,where the history comes from
    Posts
    38

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    I don't know how to quote a segment ,but Mr Edyzmedieval did I hear you correctly:

    "Too bad they didn't have the numbers by the end of the war"

    Too bad for whom ???!!!
    BREED MORE CONSUMERS

    Everyone's entitled to my opinion

  7. #7

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Eddyz,

    Goering - briliant commander in WWII?:)))))))) Yeah, realy great. Germans can say him thanks for Stalingrad catastrophe, for bad use of Luftwaffe field divisions, bombing German cities etc.

    King Tiger tanks and V1, V2 had no large affect on war. Actually when this was developed war was ending and this armour has nothing together with german "blitzkrieg" strategy (actually this strategy borned in Lipezk maneuvres where Soviets allowed training of Germany officiers, equipment etc. which was forbidden by Versaile treaty).

    For "blitzkrieg" in East Germany had only 4000 light tanks, including Chezh 38 against Soviets 14 000 including ~1000 T-34 (medium) and KV-1 (heavy). Same was with planes, guns, manpower etc.
    Sherman tank:))) Was it really tank for normal battle? Small gun, high corpuss, low speed, bad armour protection etc.

    Therefore I`m still asking why lots of people think that Germany was military Superpower?

  8. #8
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Sometimes I am really suprised how the German equipment is overrated.

    It is usually forgotten that German planes, tanks, guns etc. were often outdated more than those of the USA, Britain or Russia or even some other countries ( France or Poland).
    It is funny, but some units were using real junk... And just see how inferior equipment was used in 1941 in Russia.
    Russian tanks or planes might be not the best in the world, but German were too - just see the number of PzII used during Barbarossa and compare them to Soviet BT or even T26. It is superior tactics, experience, commanders and luck ( suprise attack) which proved so important in the early part of the russian campaign.
    It is often forgotten that if Germany had roughly 3500 tanks and 3500 planes the SU had 22 000 tanks and 19 000 planes of comparable quality or sometimes much more modern - the 1500 T34 and KV1 & 2 might be only a fraction of Soviet equipment, but it was almost 50 % of German numbers

  9. #9
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
    Germany was a powerhouse in the Second World War... It not only had brilliant commanders( see Edwin Rommel, Hermann Goering...) .......
    but it also had a lot of bad commanders (Paulus...). Hermann Goering was one of the bad ones. He did a good job builting up the Luftwaffe, but he lost Dunquerke and Stalingrad.

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
    heavy water( Telemark Research Base, Rjukan, Norway), great ships( Bismarck, Tirpitz) and last but not least, the Luftwaffe, helped them very much.... Too bad that they didn't have enough numbers of them at the end of the war...........
    heavy water is totally overestimated.

  10. #10
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fortress of the Mountains
    Posts
    11,234

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Electric Celt
    I don't know how to quote a segment ,but Mr Edyzmedieval did I hear you correctly:

    "Too bad they didn't have the numbers by the end of the war"

    Too bad for whom ???!!!
    For the Germans, for whom.....

    If they had enough King Tiger Tanks and also V2 missiles, then I think the fate would have been different.... In my opinion, King Tiger was the best tank in the whole war.... (I'm reffering to its gun, armour.... it would have beaten the T34 easily)
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  11. #11
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    4,407

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    The German army had some serious shortcomings in the material as they still used horses in their infantry divisions throughout the war. Their tanks were also very light in the beginning of the war.

    But their blitzkrieg tactics and superior training made up for these shortcomings in the early years. The Soviet army ended up being a good army that nearly was of the same standards but of course with a much larger army compared to what the Germans ever had. Their attack in Manchuria in 1945 was very much a typical blitzkrieg attack.


    CBR

  12. #12
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fortress of the Mountains
    Posts
    11,234

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Sorry guys.... I'm a bit dizzzy today....

    Goering was indeed a bad commander.... Paulus had the complete responsibility for losing Stalingrad......
    Brilliant commanders of the Third Reich: Heinz Guderian(not very famous, but he had invented the tank warfare in Germany), Albert Kesselring( which I admire) and Model(forgot his complete name).... Also, Gerd von Runstedt(not brilliant, but good)

    At the end of the war, they really had some technology going, although they haven't had the resources and time to make them in large numbers...... The advantage of the Germans was clearly the Blitzkrieg.... Indeed, as you say, the had inferior technology when they attacked Poland and Russia( they had many Czech light tanks of inferior quality) but as the war progressed, they made many improvements to the army.... They made new tanks to equip the army, and they were good ( Panzer Kmpfw 4 and Panzer III and IV)but I think it was a bit too late... The Soviets got their T34 going.... It was the rescue of the Soviet Union....
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  13. #13
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    4,407

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    King Tigers came way too late in the war to have made any difference. Tiger tanks were in general very expensive as they were very complicated to build. But the King Tiger was no doubt the most heavy of all tanks and its long 88 mm gun was deadly.

    V2 missiles could only make attacks on large cities and the development of the industry to build them was very costly (they could have built around 10000 more fighters during 1944 instead, for the same resources used) and it was simply not worth the effort.

    Germany had built up a good military industry before the war but amateur management of it cost them the war as it was only in 1943 they started to get it up and running and by then it was too late to catch up.


    CBR

  14. #14
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Ulrih,

    do not know what exactly your questions is. Is it only about the power at the beginning or during the whole war?

    In the beginning Germany was stronger than Poland, Denmark and Norway ... for sure. More difficult are France and GB.
    German Luftwaffe had an excellent fighter. StuKa was o.k. too; rest was medium quality. There were no heavy bombers. France was a little bit weaker but not that big difference. GB had excellent fighters, too, and even heavy bombers. German pilots were more expierienced and better trained. The tactic of airbattles and airsupport was more advanced.
    Germans Heer
    Tanks were light and fast but bad armored and only with small tanks. But they had a superior tactic and were equipped with radio. France seems to be equal at tanks. They had more heavy ones but only two independant units. Rest was devided to the infantry units. British was much smaller and could not meet the Germans.
    German Navy was much weaker that the French or the British one. Only their subs were better in quantity. However, they were still few and operating from Germany would not have been a big success. Only after having the french harbors they were dangerous. Brits unterestimated the subs because of their ASDIC. However, when the subs attacked on the surface it did not help.
    Fundament:
    German armies well built in a very short time. There was a lack of trained people and equipment. (during the battle of England GB produced more fighters and trained more pilots than Germany did). Germany production potential in 1940 was big but wasted. The industry did not work as effective as the US or Soviet.
    Russia had a big army. A German study stated that the Russian tanks were not equal to Germans and that it would take years until they could launch a better tank. This was in 1941, when the first T34 was produced. Russia had much more planes. Even though most were old, they had some new disigns that were as good as the Germans.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Franconious,

    In most history books there is said that Germany had great army, with newest equipment (better than had oponents) and that german oponents had no chances against Germany and only some luck (russian winter, late development of better equipment etc.) saved world. I want to know your opinion why there is such myth?

    And why you compare German army to France (which collapsed in very short time and had no large effect on whole war) and not Soviets?

    I really think that only ones that were ready for war were Soviets and actually it`s very big luck, that Germans striked first on Soviets, but not Soviets striked Germany. In this case Europe (and perhaps not Europe only)will know better Soviet crimes against humanity, but now Germans.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    " I want to know your opinion why there is such myth?"

    With this I meant opinion of everybody that writes here:)))

  17. #17
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulrih fon Jungingen
    Franconious,

    In most history books there is said that Germany had great army, with newest equipment (better than had oponents) and that german oponents had no chances against Germany and only some luck (russian winter, late development of better equipment etc.) saved world. I want to know your opinion why there is such myth?
    Germany was the strongest power in WW1. However, after the war it was so poor and his military was so restricted that no one really thought they could be a real threat to Europe. Furthermore most of the military thought that the time for offensive warfare is gone (-> France built that Maginot line)
    Imagine the surprise. Germany won easily and after the France campaign Germay seemed to be unstoppable. Why? The explynation was not that the nations that had to surrender were bad equipped, had the wrong military doctrines and poor moral. The explanation was much simpler: Bad Germany had built up a huge war machinery. France and other nations were helpless victims of this machinery. Was kind of hysteria. I think even the US expected Germans or Japanese to land at their coasts. So the myth was born.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulrih fon Jungingen
    I really think that only ones that were ready for war were Soviets and actually it`s very big luck, that Germans striked first on Soviets, but not Soviets striked Germany. In this case Europe (and perhaps not Europe only)will know better Soviet crimes against humanity, but now Germans.
    SU was not prepared to enter the war in 1941. This is a lie the Nazis told to explain that this was a good war. And many of the veterans and Neonazis still repeat it. In fact it is not true. There is no doubt that Stalin tried to take advantage of the war. He wanted to get even more territories than Hitler had agreed before. He was in the position to wait an see what would be best for him. He was well aware that the SU was not ready for a war. His order to the troops told them to avoid anything that could provoke the Germans.

  18. #18
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    SU was not prepared to enter the war in 1941. This is a lie the Nazis told to explain that this was a good war. And many of the veterans and Neonazis still repeat it. In fact it is not true.

    So I am a german veteran or neo-nazi, because I am sure the SU would attack - certainly before 1943, most likely in 1942, possibly in 1941.

    There are very many facts to see the red tide coming e.g. the Soviets were trying to create Polish 'liberational' army in early 1941.

    The 2nd WW was a clash between two mass murderers and two mad empires where the western allies had only a relatively small share of the entire fighting....

  19. #19
    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    London, innit
    Posts
    3,734

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    IMHO its because whilst its easy to get all excited whether a Tiger tank had thicker armour or a bigger gun than, say, the Sherman or the T34, its not easy to get excited about the fact that the Sherman and the T 34 were easier to maintain, operate, and actually get to a battlefield. Nor is it easy to get excited about production statistics, and the fact that whereas the total production of the Tiger was about 1400, more than 40,000 T 34's and Shermans were produced (ie over 80,000 in total).

    I take the point you are making. The Battle of Britain is another such myth, with even the British thinking it was a stereotypical story of British improvisation, courage and sheer luck overcoming German efficiency. In fact the British air defence system was exactly worked out, in detail, years in advance, and it was the Germans who improvised and had a more "romantic" view of the air war. Likewise Britain was building Spitfires faster and more efficiently that the Germans were making Me 109's and so on. But of you ask the average man in the street he'd tell you it was all won by a few dozen public schoolboys in spitfires taking on hordes of highly trained but unimaginative Germans.
    "The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that Navaros is claiming that Satan gave Man meat. Awesome." Gorebag

  20. #20
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by cegorach1
    SU was not prepared to enter the war in 1941. This is a lie the Nazis told to explain that this was a good war. And many of the veterans and Neonazis still repeat it. In fact it is not true.

    So I am a german veteran or neo-nazi, because I am sure the SU would attack - certainly before 1943, most likely in 1942, possibly in 1941.

    There are very many facts to see the red tide coming e.g. the Soviets were trying to create Polish 'liberational' army in early 1941.

    The 2nd WW was a clash between two mass murderers and two mad empires where the western allies had only a relatively small share of the entire fighting....
    Common! I said the SU was not prepared in 1941. I did not say they would not have tried to enter the war later. I think Stalin was just watching and wondering when to enter the conflict. If the Germany would have been invating GB successfully maybe he would have attacked India. If GB would have been able to defend he might have chosen to attack Germany.

  21. #21
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    On e comment on this Tiger story - this seems to be a myth, too. Some books I read have hints that there must have been a strategic decition according to the tank production after the battle of Moscow. The German leaders realized then that they could never meet the production figures of the US and the USSR. So they installed a 5 : 1 program. This meant a German tank should be able to fight 5 tanks of America or Russia. So they developed the Tigers and Panthers.
    Hitler believed until the very end that only a couple of German tanks could stop the invasion of houndreds of Russian or American tanks.
    This program failed, because
    - the US and the Russians built 10 times as many tanks with the same production capacity
    - German tanks were too slow and needed too much fuel. They were unable to 'blitz' anymore.
    - Due to the allied airpowr many German tanks never reached the front.

    I am not sure if my conclusions are right. Maybe someone else has any information.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Franconicus,

    There are lot of facts that show SU preparations for assault (concentration of Soviet forces on border, maps of Europe for Soviet oficiers, huge volume of supply materials on boarders etc.) and some historians speak even about data for attack (something like Soviet "Barbarossa") - 6th of July 1941. Soviets were waiting only for German invasion in Great Britain. In this case they could take over all Europe without any serious struggle, because main German forces would be involved in battle in UK.

  23. #23
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    If they were prepared, how could they be driven back to Moscow(almost)?
    They even had to build new factories in Sibiria to be able to produce anything. Germanyīs only chance to win anything was indeed the Blitzkrieg-strategy, because the german economy was not able to produce in such masses as Russia or the USA. If you want to know why, just compare some figures about landmass and number of people. German equipment was superior and they had plans/prototypes for even better stuff, they just didnīt have enough of it. Two nights ago I watched an old german movie(1954 IIRC) about Canaris, who was an older admiral in charge of the "Abwehr"(secret service) and gathered information for the army. He didnīt want the war and wanted Hitler to go, without bloodshed, but as some kind of patriot he still served and collected data. As the german invasion in Russia stopped due to the russian winter(yes, they werenīt prepared for that, although they knew about Napoleonīs fault, they thought they could do better just because they were Germans), the generals and Hitler just refused to listen to anything negative he found out, and in the end he was killed in a KZ because of his links to some traitors. Now as we all know, Hitler was crazy and so were many Nazis who were indoctrinated by him and his followers, they just didnīt mention or think of the possibility of a defeat and made a lot of errors due to that. How can you command your troops effectively if you donīt have any information about the enemy because thatīs too negative for you to hear?
    And donīt forget that Germany had the most fronts, they even needed troops to keep the opposition in conquered territories down.
    And as was said here already, Russian equipment was NOT superior, I donīt know where you got that myth from? Why do you think was the MG42 used as an example for the american M60 and the german MG3 after the war? The Sturmgewehr 44 was also the first assault rifle produced.
    German ships were also not bad, the Bismarck sunk the british Hood in less than 10mins and the british bombarded the unmaneuverable bismarck for 90 minutes with a whole fleet before the crew sunk the ship.(yes, I was laughing my ass off when I first heard that )
    I know thereīs a rumor of a german 4-engined bomber prototype that got unnoticed as close as 20km to New York.

    I think itīs no wonder Germany lost the war, because it was fighting several superpowers at once who had a better economy over the long term, more territory and more men. But that doesnīt mean that all german equipment was inferior.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    9,651

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Ulrih, I don't understand your point. Given how the German army outperformed the Russian one in 1941 - IIRC it captured or killed more than half of it - isn't it obvious, even a truism, that it was superior? It's no myth or speculation - the German military in 1939-41 was proven to be vastly superior to the military of all other countries in the world.

    Now if you are saying that Germany was not seen at the time as a military "superpower" in the way that the US now is, then you are right. The qualitative superiority of its army was not obvious at the time to the Allies, until it was (almost) too late. However, I am always impressed by the way Hitler and a few other German leaders do seem to have realised the strength of the hand they were holding. Hence their strikingly ambitious and successful warfighting plans. Maybe Hitler was just a gambler or had delusions of power, but some generals like Guderian and Manstein did have admirable insight into the effectivess of their military machine.

    You seem to be talking about only hardware[1], as you acknowledge the German superiority of tactics and leadership. But the striking thing about the German early war successes is how far the "soft" factors like tactics and leadership could take it. I tend to agree with Electric Celt - Germany was the powerhouse in early WW2 because of its innovative way of fighting, centred around air superiority and the panzer division. When air superiority ended and the Allies learnt to cope with (and copy) the panzer division, then numbers and hardware told and the Germans were massively outgunned.

    [1]Even in terms of the quality of hardware, the German army of 1939-41 was about the best equipped. One German infantry squad was probably worth about three Russian ones, thanks to their impressive LMGs (ok, I'm probably including soft factors here too). The Russian armour only started to clearly exceed the German armour when the T-34 came on stream - most of its stuff (eg the T-26) in 1939-41 was obsolete or clearly inferior to the German tanks. The PzIII and short barrelled PzIV were state of the art tanks for their time. The French had some heavy tanks that caused problems, but the British certainly struggled against them early on in the desert. The Messerchimdt109 was about as good as anything else flying in the same period (only the Spitfire matched it) and far better than most. The stuka was very good for the job it was asked to do. German artillery was up there with the best. Only at sea were the Germans clearly they were outclassed in hardware.
    Last edited by econ21; 07-04-2005 at 18:58.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Why is Germany considered a superpower in WWII? Because it took half the world six years to beat it (even then most of the defeats were due to Hitler's meddling, if his generals had been left to their own devices, an allied victory would be far from certain).

    Between 1939 and 1921, British and French tanks were actually superior to German tanks, it was just that the Germans had better tank doctrines than the Allies.

    Going off-topic for a second, but I really think you guys are being too harsh on Paulus. He had a brilliant military career up to this point. He repeatedly requested permission to withdraw, and was always told that the Sixth Army would be relieved shortly. He told Hitler he could only hold out if he got 500 tons of supplies per day, and Goering told him that he would get them (in the event, the most that ever reached him was 50 tons per day). Manstein and Paulus had worked out plans for a breakout that had a good chance of success, but Hitler overruled them and ordered that the Sixth Army fight to the death.

    I just do not think it is right to blame him of a catastrophe that his superiors created.
    Last edited by Grey_Fox; 07-04-2005 at 19:26.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Why there is so dominating thinking that Germany had superior military machine than other countries in WWII?
    A lot has been said about equipment and blitzkrieg, but the simple fact is German soldiers were clearly superior to Russian soldiers.

    Now in this day of political correctness, putting one group of people over another is a no-no, but its the truth.

    Germans during ww2 were better trained, better motivated, braver, smarter, more capable, more organized, and more willing to fight hard. This was the case in both the officer corps and the ordinary infantry.

    Tasks that Russian commanders wouldn't dream of giving an entire regiment were given to undersupplied, undermanned German units and accomplished.

    Besides the utter brilliance of German commanders, who argued against Hitler on almost every decision he made including Stalingrad and Kursk, some of the missions completed in Russia were astounding. (See: Manstein's retaking of Kharkov)

    The reason the history books, which you seem to be arguing about, talk about Germany's great army is because historians realize that with any sort of equality in numbers and supplies, the Germans would have easily defeated the USSR. And lets not forget about the West and the Mediterainian.

    Sometimes Germany had the technical edge, sometimes Russia did - but German troop quality was generally always better than Russian... and thats no insult. There are many reasons for that.


    Oh and your claim that Russia had better tanks is somewhat misguided. In actuality Russia had tank superiority for only a very short time between the introduction of the Pz.IV and the Pz.V. Before and after that German fielded much stronger tanks, and im not even mentioning Tiger units.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Going off-topic for a second, but I really think you guys are being too harsh on Paulus. He had a brilliant military career up to this point. He repeatedly requested permission to withdraw, and was always told that the Sixth Army would be relieved shortly. He told Hitler he could only hold out if he got 500 tons of supplies per day, and Goering told him that he would get them (in the event, the most that ever reached him was 50 tons per day). Manstein and Paulus had worked out plans for a breakout that had a good chance of success, but Hitler overruled them and ordered that the Sixth Army fight to the death.
    Great analysis. The mess at Stalingrad was Hitler's creation.

  28. #28
    Bosna Member PittBull260's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    322

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    germany had the best trained soldiers, and very smart commanders

  29. #29
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,674

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulrih fon Jungingen
    Hmm, OK Russia had only one front, but this was the main front of all war. Here was broken neck of Hitler`s army, not on secondary theatres as Africa etc.
    Sorry this is one of my pet peeves and shows typical arrogant eurocentric thinking that the only place in the world is europe.

    The British Empire at the time covered a 1/4 of the globe. Some of which was in East Asia and at war with Japan, a major power given what they where doing in China, Singapore and Hawaii. Japan was a very credible threat and was on the verge of taking over the whole of the Western Pacific.

    If the Japanese had attacked the Russians instead of the Americans and British, Russia would have had its back against the wall. No American aid, and a two way front. Very hard to relocate factories to Siberia if it was flying the Japanese flag.

    Germany was fighting a multi-front war, it was up against the British Empire and the USA eventually (minus that fighting Japan). That was not a good position to be in given the British Navy, Radar and the British 'lucky' ability to read the codes faster then the enemy commanders got them (first by mathematicians later by actually having the machine, some of the first computers).

    Russia on the other hand was against one foe on one front, with the backup of two major players keeping the Japanese from them.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Why so much speculations about Germany in WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    A lot has been said about equipment and blitzkrieg, but the simple fact is German soldiers were clearly superior to Russian soldiers.

    Now in this day of political correctness, putting one group of people over another is a no-no, but its the truth.

    Germans during ww2 were better trained, better motivated, braver, smarter, more capable, more organized, and more willing to fight hard. This was the case in both the officer corps and the ordinary infantry.


    German's greatest strenght lay with her (his :D) commanders. The infantry might have been better than the Russian one but they were not nearly as superior as you're making them out to be. The Germans developed superior tanks but late and not enough of them because they lost resources to build them. It wasn't the technology or the training as much as it was leadership. Rommel was outmanned and outgunned and he still managed to fight the Brits. His soldiers were tough but he was the main reason behind the German success in Africa.

    Sorry this is one of my pet peeves and shows typical arrogant eurocentric thinking that the only place in the world is europe.

    The British Empire at the time covered a 1/4 of the globe. Some of which was in East Asia and at war with Japan, a major power given what they where doing in China, Singapore and Hawaii. Japan was a very credible threat and was on the verge of taking over the whole of the Western Pacific.

    If the Japanese had attacked the Russians instead of the Americans and British, Russia would have had its back against the wall. No American aid, and a two way front. Very hard to relocate factories to Siberia if it was flying the Japanese flag.

    Germany was fighting a multi-front war, it was up against the British Empire and the USA eventually (minus that fighting Japan). That was not a good position to be in given the British Navy, Radar and the British 'lucky' ability to read the codes faster then the enemy commanders got them (first by mathematicians later by actually having the machine, some of the first computers).

    Russia on the other hand was against one foe on one front, with the backup of two major players keeping the Japanese from them.
    You're talking about number of fronts, why not talk about number of men. Japan could have attacked Siberia but it didn't. When it comes to the war with Germany, the Soviet Union was key. The US provided an incredible amount of vehicles and weaponry to the Soviet Union. When the Allies invaded in 1944, there were about three times as many German troops in the east compared to the west. This is after whole German armies had been destroyed (Stalingrad etc.). With American industrial aid, the German threat was stopped and destroyed in Russia.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO