Javalins

[tigger_on_vrb]

Do you get the +1 valour bonus for javalin units if you train them at a master spearmaker?
Do you still get it for jogabby even though they dont require a spear maker to make them?

[Zarax]

No, you get that only for the units that require a spearmaker...

[tigger_on_vrb]

What about the first question - for the slavs, spanish javelins who do need a spearmaker

[Zarax]

If they need a spearmaker then you'll definitely get the +1 bonus.
If I was in you I'd also build inns and wait to hire some Almughavars, who are by far the best javelins in the game, with good attack and capable to double as spearmen.

[tigger_on_vrb]

You see I always go for jogabby when playing the Hungarians, but if slav javlins get +1 valour with master spearmaker then that might make me change my mind, although it takes a long time to tech up that far.
Also it might make me tech up Ireland for spears aswell to get +1 valour kerns (I normally build straight for a master swordmaker to get +2 valour gallowglasses which are absolutely awesome)

[Patron]

What would you need to get a +1 valour bonus for knights? Do you need both a master armouerer and a master horse breeder?

[The Grand Inquisitor]

If they need a spearmaker then you'll definitely get the +1 bonus.

To be completely accurate ... If the building requirements listed in the unit production text file has a spearmaker type building as the FIRST building on the list, then a master spearmaker will give a +1 valour bonus - unless you need a master spearmaker to make the unit in the first place.

[Mujalumbo]

What would you need to get a +1 valour bonus for knights? Do you need both a master armouerer and a master horse breeder?

Assuming the requirements haven't changed, I believe Master Horse Breeder will give you +1 valour knights/cavalry. (Unless the MHB is required, in which case, it won't give you the +1 valour bonus.)

[The Grand Inquisitor]

As I said above, it depends upon the _order_ in which the building requirements are listed in the unit production file. If the first building listed is a horse breeder of some sort, then a master horse breeder gives a +1 bonus, but if another type of building is listed first, such as a court or palace, then no bonus is gained for master horse breeder.

[tigger_on_vrb]

So that means you dont need a master bowmaker to get +1 valour futuwwas? I always build the master bowyer and then the master swordsmith and only get the +1 valour after the swordsmith, but I get it without the master bowyer?

[Zarax]

I think it's something that changes on a per-unit basis.

[The Grand Inquisitor]

So that means you dont need a master bowmaker to get +1 valour futuwwas? I always build the master bowyer and then the master swordsmith and only get the +1 valour after the swordsmith, but I get it without the master bowyer?

That doesn't seem right.
Futuwwas require a Bowyer3 and a Swordsmith1 (listed in that order in the CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.TXT file ). So the +1 valour should come from having a Bowyer4. A Swordsmith4 should have no effect.

[tigger_on_vrb]

I can assure you 100% absolutely that you dont get +1 valour for Futuwwas with a master bowyer only, but you do after you also build a master swordsmith. I've never tried a master swordsmith without a master bowyer because I've always built the master bowyer first.

[bretwalda]

It would be good to get some solid evidence on this subject ;) Especially with the hybrid units. I like the Turks, so I am interested

I can assure you 100% absolutely that you dont get +1 valour for Futuwwas with a master bowyer only, but you do after you also build a master swordsmith. I've never tried a master swordsmith without a master bowyer because I've always built the master bowyer first.

[littlebktruck]

To be completely accurate ... If the building requirements listed in the unit production text file has a spearmaker type building as the FIRST building on the list, then a master spearmaker will give a +1 valour bonus - unless you need a master spearmaker to make the unit in the first place.

Does that mean that only Germany and Italy can build +1 valour knights (as only they can build baronial estates)?

[Turkish_Sipahi]

Javelins are a gift from God. Especially if you're in Iberia.


I wholeheartedly agree. Jinnettes are especially nice, as they combine the benefits of both javelins and light cavalry. They have brought many victories to my Spanish armies.

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[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I've always though of Javalins as a rather fun, but benign, diversion. That said I'm big on Longbows and Arbelasters so I suppose I never needed them.

I'll tell you what are really pointless in the Medieval campaign, dartmen. I get a kick out of using them on FMAA.

[Zarax]

Dartmen are useless as they aren't AP...

[Zarax]

Does that mean that only Germany and Italy can build +1 valour knights (as only they can build baronial estates)?

No, knights should get +1 with master horse breeder...

[Martok]

Javelins are a gift from God. Especially if you're in Iberia.


I wholeheartedly agree. Jinnettes are especially nice, as they combine the benefits of both javelins and light cavalry. They have brought many victories to my Spanish armies.

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I second your comment about the Jinnettes! While I generally hate mounted missile units (either playing with them OR against), Jinnettes really are a godsend when you're playing as Aragon or Spain. I believe (especially in the Early period) that they're what allows the Catholic Iberian kingdoms to successfully expand. Without Jinnettes, the whole peninsula would probably come under Almo/French rule.

[scozzy99]

i much prefer something like a byz cavalry to pepper with arrows. i just can't use jinnettes

[Martok]

i much prefer something like a byz cavalry to pepper with arrows. i just can't use jinnettes

I initially felt the same way about Jinnettes--until I started going up against FMAA and especially Almohad Urban Militia. While officially classified as a "peasant"-type unit, AUM's are actually closer to medium infantry on steroids than anything else! They're the bane and scourge of all Catholic Iberian armies; they have good attack and (even worse) they're armoured. Worse yet, they're also fairly cheap, so the Almos can afford to train a lot of them.

I eventually discovered that in the Early period, Jinnettes are one of the few units availabe to the Spanish that can engage AUM's effectively, and that don't cost an arm and a leg to train. Yes, it's true that most--if not all--knights can take them out as well, but of course they're quite expensive. Jinnettes are much cheaper, and with their armour-piercing javelins, they can take down a bunch of AUM's (as well as Feudal/Chivalric MAA) with just a couple volleys. And in addition to being among the fastest cavarly on the battlefield, they're not heavily armoured and so they don't tire easily. (This is particuarly nice when going up against the Almohads, as Jinnettes do fairly well in desert fighting.)

Therefore, Jinnettes can spend all day throwing their javelins into armoured units, withdrawing to a safe distance, wheel around and throw more javelins into the enemy, etc. Then, once they've expended their ammo, they can start their flanking attacks. (They're still not great at head-on charges unless it's against light/medium infantry.) Generally, by the time a battle has reached this point, my Jins attacking the enemy units (who by now usually have a bunch of dead comrades with javelins through their bodies) is all I need to break them and start them running. After that, the Jins' excellent speed makes them well-suited to chasing down routers.

All that said, I do realize that, no, Jinnettes aren't easy to manage. They do require some baby-sitting, especially as they have to get closer to their targets than horse archers/mounted x-bows. They're still absolutely worth it, though. The Spanish is one of my favorite factions, in large part because of Jinnettes. Yes, they will eventually become eclipsed by better units (and maybe even rendered completely obsolete); but in the Early period they're quite simply one of the best cavalry units available.

[tigger_on_vrb]

I think foot javelins are only really worth it for early period (except bridge battles - they can still work well for these in high and late). After early arbalesters are my anti armour choice.
Jinettes are awesome in early, yes you need to practice to use them but have patience and you will learn to love them. You need to use them against pinned units as they have a short range (switch skirmish off) or isolate 1 unit of infantry with a pair of jinettes and tear them apart! They have the same stats as a mounted sgt except the charge, but their javelins make them really versatile. After early I only generally use jinettes for desert warfare - especially when the AI sends a totally unsuitable heavy army to the desert!

[Eternal Champion]

If you have access to Jinettes then you should always have some around no matter what era as they are very useful as they can do it all. They can take down heavy armour, melee, and run down routers with the best.

[littlebktruck]

They have the same stats as a mounted sgt except the charge

IIRC, mounted sergeants aren't fast.

[antisocialmunky]

High level Jinettes will kill pinned knights from the rear or side in hth. Or, alternatively, you could lead knights on a wild goose chance and tire them, charge one Jinette behind and one from the front. All for the price of one knight.

[Eternal Champion]

IIRC, mounted sergeants aren't fast.

Same speed as Knights or most other Cav, just not in the same league as Jinettes, Steppe Cav, Alans, Mounted Crossbows and most other HA's.

[littlebktruck]

Same speed as Knights or most other Cav, just not in the same league as Jinettes, Steppe Cav, Alans, Mounted Crossbows and most other HA's.

Yeah, that's what I meant. They're 9-20-22, whereas Jinettes are 9-24-26.

[The Grand Inquisitor]

I can assure you 100% absolutely that you dont get +1 valour for Futuwwas with a master bowyer only, but you do after you also build a master swordsmith. I've never tried a master swordsmith without a master bowyer because I've always built the master bowyer first.

Looks like I'll have to play a Turkish game to confirm this.

[The Grand Inquisitor]

No, knights should get +1 with master horse breeder...

Knights just don't get the +1 valour bonus.