!!BAD!! the assault weapon ban may come back!!

[Xiahou]

However you made it debatable (SP) when you challanged my positon as hype. I base my opinion on concealed carry on how I envision the founding fathers meet for the 2nd Ammendment to mean - not what the NRA or the Bradley Campaign attempt to tell me it means. And when you challenge my thoughts and views concerning the 2nd Ammendment what did you expect - you made it a Constitutional issue.

Nope, what I challenged as hype was your implication that legal concealed weapons carriers are some great danger- the statistics don't back that up. At best, they reduce and prevent crimes, at worst they have no net effect- it depends who's numbers you want to believe, but even in the worst statistics put forth by the gun-grabbers there is no clear evidence of harm. That's pretty compelling evidence against banning it, imo.

Look at studies of soldiers in warfare - less then 10% aimed their weapons when firing at the enemy.

I think warfare is a different situation. Things such as supressing fire do not need to be carefully aimed to achieve their purpose. Often you just want someone to duck their head.

Situational awareness goes much father in protecting one's self from harm then packing a weapon. Which is the driving point behind never allow teachers to carry concealed weapons to school - train them on the signs to look for concerning possible danger developing from a student. The FBI and even the Secret Service reports on School Shooting indicate that students were aware at least a day in advance that the even could happen, and that other signs of manifestation of violence by the kids was present if the teachers had been trained on what to look for. That is a whole lot better then packing weapons into the school by teachers.

Being aware of your surroundings can go a long way, but it's meaningless without being able to act on it. If you suspect your in a bad situation, obviously the first thing you need to do is remove yourself from it, but occasionally that isn't an option for people.

There's not much point in carrying if you're not going to be aware of surroundings. But, if you are aware, armed and prepared to defend yourself should the need arrive you're in a better position than just being aware.

Nor am I afraid of people who have concealed carry permits

Im glad you're now saying this. You gave me a very different impression earlier when you said you didnt trust them.

The accuracy of police in shoot outs with criminals is more then enough testimony for me, in that regards.

Myself and other CCW advocates often discuss in disbelief the stupidity displayed by some police officers when it comes to handling weapons- it makes the news all too often. Many officers take it upon themselves to become proficient with their weapons, unfortunately, too many also do not.

About schools, I guess you haven't been to as many as I. Particularly inner city schools. There are schools that are in neighborhoods were you are told your life will be in danger if don't leave the school by dusk. There are schools, that when you arrive, you are instructed to never be in a hallway during class changes because you could be assaulted or shanked- some have acloves with closable gates for people caught in that situation. There have been teachers raped and murdered in their own classrooms- by students. I'd never allow a child of mine to attend such a school- but apparently some people don't have a choice.

[Redleg]

Nope, what I challenged as hype was your implication that legal concealed weapons carriers are some great danger- the statistics don't back that up. At best, they reduce and prevent crimes, at worst they have no net effect- it depends who's numbers you want to believe, but even in the worst statistics put forth by the gun-grabbers there is no clear evidence of harm. That's pretty compelling evidence against banning it, imo.

In a class room full of kids was the context of that statement. And in that context its not hype. The worse thing you can do is put a firearms in the public school system as a means of security.

I think warfare is a different situation. Things such as supressing fire do not need to be carefully aimed to achieve their purpose. Often you just want someone to duck their head.

And in a stressful situation where accuracy is important because of innocent people being in your immediate surrounding.

Being aware of your surroundings can go a long way, but it's meaningless without being able to act on it. If you suspect your in a bad situation, obviously the first thing you need to do is remove yourself from it, but occasionally that isn't an option for people.

some times its not an option - and I still don't advocate carrying a concealed weapon to protect yourself from that odd occurance when you can not avoid the situtation.

There's not much point in carrying if you're not going to be aware of surroundings. But, if you are aware, armed and prepared to defend yourself should the need arrive you're in a better position than just being aware.

And I would counter that there is no need to carry a concealed weapon if you are aware of your surroundings.

Im glad you're now saying this. You gave me a very different impression earlier when you said you didnt trust them.

Trust and being afraid are two different things.

Myself and other CCW advocates often discuss in disbelief the stupidity displayed by some police officers when it comes to handling weapons- it makes the news all too often. Many officers take it upon themselves to become proficient with their weapons, unfortunately, too many also do not.

And I would expect most CCW permit holders - not advocates - would have similiar statistics if a study was done. Slightly smaller on the careless handling of weapons - but on accuracy under stress - it will most likely be similiar or worse for the CCW permit holder.

About schools, I guess you haven't been to as many as I. Particularly inner city schools. There are schools that are in neighborhoods were you are told your life will be in danger if don't leave the school by dusk. There are schools, that when you arrive, you are instructed to never be in a hallway during class changes because you could be assaulted or shanked- some have acloves with closable gates for people caught in that situation. There have been teachers raped and murdered in their own classrooms- by students.

Still doesn't mean we should arm our teachers in the classrooms. Better counselling and discpline procedures to throw students out of the education process when they demonstrate their unwillingless to learn. If a school is that dangerous and disruptive - close it down and bus the students who want to learn to other locations - and arrest those who want to be disruptive animals for their behavior as it comes up.

To many states have the laws stated that a child must stay in school until they turn 18.

Hell throw them out of the education process when they become a disruptive distraction to the other students. Ie situational awareness. You might see the need to arm teachers with conceal carry firearms - however I think if that is the case shut down the whole school system and let me have my tax dollars back to educate my child in my own way.

[Xiahou]

Still doesn't mean we should arm our teachers in the classrooms. Better counselling and discpline procedures to throw students out of the education process when they demonstrate their unwillingless to learn. If a school is that dangerous and disruptive - close it down and bus the students who want to learn to other locations - and arrest those who want to be disruptive animals for their behavior as it comes up.

To many states have the laws stated that a child must stay in school until they turn 18.

Hell throw them out of the education process when they become a disruptive distraction to the other students. Ie situational awareness. You might see the need to arm teachers with conceal carry firearms - however I think if that is the case shut down the whole school system and let me have my tax dollars back to educate my child in my own way.

That may sound reasonable, but we both know it isn't going to happen. People would be up in arms if we closed down inner city schools and expelled kids from the education system if they don't want to be there. I'm not saying we should arm all teacher either- someone else said that. I'm saying, essentially, that if the law trusts people to carry concealed weapons (via permits) for defense of themselves and others why stop that at the door to a school? If a teacher is legally allowed and willing to do so, I don't see the great harm in it. Would you feel better if it was only school administrators? They have less contact with the students. If someone is concealing properly it shouldn't be possible to tell he's carrying, so students shouldn't be aware of it.

[Redleg]

That may sound reasonable, but we both know it isn't going to happen. People would be up in arms if we closed down inner city schools and expelled kids from the education system if they don't want to be there. I'm not saying we should arm all teacher either- someone else said that. I'm saying, essentially, that if the law trusts people to carry concealed weapons (via permits) for defense of themselves and others why stop that at the door to a school? If a teacher is legally allowed and willing to do so, I don't see the great harm in it. Would you feel better if it was only school administrators? They have less contact with the students. If someone is concealing properly it shouldn't be possible to tell he's carrying, so students shouldn't be aware of it.

If I discover that teachers believe that its a necessity for protection to carry concealed weapons into a school - my child would not be in that school at all. Not because I am afraid of guns - but because where one believes it is necessary to carry a gun for protection - is no place for a child to be educated.