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Thread: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

  1. #31

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Hello.

    I want to ask 2 question. Is it ok for my to post here my research because I wos not a pearson who start this topic and I don't want to hijack this thread? Is it worth to investigate this matter now when ex is right by corner and who know what CA can change in BI?

  2. #32
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Hello, Ness. Of course, people can post their research in any Ludus Magna thread, regardless of who started the thread. On your second question, I doubt we can alter BI at this stage. However, there are likely to be other bites at the cherry. BI may be patched. And apparent at least one more game is in the works, which will use the RTW engine. Besides, knowledge has an instrinsic value, at least to the curious!

  3. #33
    Barbarian of the north Member Magraev's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    One thing that must be a factor is the level of development in the cities. I've noticed few rebels in greece and italy, dropping away to nothing as the cities are developed.

    As barbarians or conquerors rebels are a constant occupation.
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  4. #34
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magraev
    I've noticed few rebels in greece and italy, dropping away to nothing as the cities are developed.
    I've seen that effect too. But I've also seen the opposite effect: fully developed huge and happy cities with bandits popping up all over.

  5. #35
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    Default Update

    Well.... I'm not sure anymore.

    I played campaigns as the Carthaginians and Greeks and my theory seemed to hold up. But my current Gaul campaign is utterly jam-packed with rebels in spite of frequent battles. Possibly the bandits are popping up en masse during those turns without fighting? But I can't tell since in v1.2 they are constantly moving or hiding.

    I'm also seeing large bandit stacks led by family members... but from what family? No factions have been wiped out, and my own faction accepts every suitor/adoptee that's offered.

  6. #36
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    Default Question

    For those who have played campaigns lasting 300 turns or more: Do bandits ever stop popping up? (Assuming you actively hunt them down)

    I'm wondering if each area has a "quota" of rebels that eventually runs dry.

  7. #37
    Wrathchild Member GreatEmperor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ness
    I remember first campaign with 1.2 patch playing parthia, I been in peace with all faction and long time no see any rebels, later they start to popping out but I think AI faction declares war on my first then rebels emerge.
    I think he's right. If you're at peace with all factions and there are no Rebel cities near, no rebels will pop up.
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  8. #38

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    I'm wondering if there are paticular rebel spawn points? There's a particular spot just west of the Julii capital where I've had rebels appear several times. Quite often it's been similar types of rebels. At least 3 or 4 times in one campaign I've had one unit of warband and one peasants appear in that spot.

    Another possible trigger I'd suggest is a lack of governor, or maybe an inept governer, in the province. In my current Julii campaign I'm campaigning in Gaul, North Africa and Greece. So far I've taken got about 27 settlements. In North Africa and Greece every town has a governor and the only rebels I've seen are a former Macedonian family member that got caught outside their last settlement when I took it.

    In Gaul and Northern Italy I only have one family member for every 2 or 3 settlements (sometimes less) and rebels are popping up all over the place.
    Last edited by Uriel; 10-03-2005 at 15:51.

  9. #39
    Member locked_thread's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    I've seen the same rebel pattern with the opposite allocation of governors.
    Former Gaul territories are perpetually infested with rebels, regardless of governorship.
    North Africa simply receives a smaller share of rebels.

    I saw a map somewhere that showed rebelliousness. At the time I didn't think it referred to bandit popups, but the correlation seems high. Anyone else seen this map, and know where it is?

  10. #40
    Member Member afrit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    I think the brigands/rebels are independent of city happiness.

    My hunch is that there is a random chance of spawning in any particular tile, with the chance being higher the farther away the tile is from any garrisons (cities of forts).
    The plural of anectode is not data - Anonymous Scientist

    I don't believe in superstition. It brings bad luck. - Umberto Eco

  11. #41
    Member Member afrit's Avatar
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    Default Is the number of rebel armies on the map fixed?

    This should be so obvious that it would have been noted by now. Still, could it be that the total number of rebel armies on the entire map is a fixed number? (or at least linked to some slowly changing value).

    I did an experiment on Med/Med, playing huns but doing absolutely nothing besides hit End Turn. With toggle_fow I counted each turn the total number of rebel armies on the map.

    This is the breakdown per turn:
    0
    3
    10
    10
    13
    13
    13
    13
    13
    12
    12

    and then I stopped following. I noted the pattern at each turn that when a rebel army has been destroyed, another will spawn elsewhere. And if I noticed a new one, almost always there was a corresponding disappearance.

    So I tested by loading an old campaign map and found that the total number of rebel armies is 10, BUT that map had 4 rebel pirates in addition (total=14) while the other experiment above had only 2 pirate fleets (total 12+2=14).

    I would like to know if others can confirm this. It would explain why rebels keep popping as long as we destroy them!!

    RETRACTION: after further testing, the constant number theory is wrong. On another run with similar settings I got totals of: 0 (1st turn), 9, 13, 16, 13, 15 , 15 , 12, 17, 17, 19, 20, 20, 21, 19, 20, 16, 18, 19, 16, 16, 18 (these include admirals)


    So if there is a steady state, it is not fixed.
    Last edited by afrit; 10-05-2005 at 01:43.
    The plural of anectode is not data - Anonymous Scientist

    I don't believe in superstition. It brings bad luck. - Umberto Eco

  12. #42

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    I have been following this thread for a while, being somewhat confused by my own observations compared to the theories presented here.

    I play on VH/VH and usually take my time with campaigns, preffering to set up a strong economy and large population before significant conquest. Because of the Senate (when playing romans) I still have to be at war, but I usually do the bare minimum required until I've built up my main cities. So what surpised me is that I very rarely see rebels pop up in my own lands. The theory that rebels will generally pop up more often if you haven't fought any battles didn't seem to hold.

    Then I realised the difference between my playstyle and that mentioned in this thread. Despite not conquering many provinces very quickly, I do like to control the sea, blockading constantly as many enemy ports as possible. This leads to a lot of sea battles, which leads me to think that sea battles may be as usefull in preventing rebels as lands ones.

    This could be a good strategy, even for those not trying to dominate the sea. Boats move a lot more freely, so it can be a lot easier to make sure you have that 1 battle per turn. Just keep throwing single boats at a large enemy navy nearby.

    I havn't done any rigorous testing, but I have completed several campaigns to the full 50 provinces, and numerous short campaigns or longer ones where I got bored before reaching the 50 mark, and I have never had any real problems with rebels, contrary to the issues that others seem to have with them. The only difference I can see is the many sea battles I end up fighting.

    Hope this is usefull

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Hollerbach: I usually have hundreds of sea battles per campaign, regardless of faction played. I've seen no correlation vs banditry.

    In fact, if I played defensively as Romans, I would expect few rebels. Roman lands produce rebels at a slow rate. Barbarian lands produce alot more (Gaul, Germania, etc) even after they are captured.


    Afrit: interesting observations... I wonder if this explains the pattern I saw before - where rebels stopped popping up after I went to war. Perhaps the true cause was.... the rebellion quota was filled by brigands in other faction provinces?

    BTW I recently watched 2 rebel armies merge together into a single big stack. Woah. I wonder if this allowed another to spawn...

  14. #44
    Member Member afrit's Avatar
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    Default Is it random?

    After retracting my view that there is a fixed number of rebel stacks (see my post above), I did further experiments. I am starting to believe rebels are RANDOM.

    To rule out other effects , I used somewhat artificial conditions for my "experiments".

    Settings were:

    -toggle_fow ON: to see the entire map and placement of all rebels
    -Hard/Hard
    -Faction: Huns

    Procedure:
    Launched new campaign.
    disabled the ai (~ disable_ai)
    Hit end turn.
    Count all rebel stacks, noting name, location and size.
    Quit game.

    I repeated the above 11 times. So each time this was done, the rebels were given (as far as I can tell) the same conditions to spawn. If there is any pattern to spawning, it should show.

    Here are the number of spawned stacks per turn (includes pirates):
    8 8 6 7 4 2 4 4 9 8 8 :average=6.2

    Looks like a uniform distribution from 2 to 9 (i.e pick a random number from 2 to 9).

    Here are the numbers of spawned units per experiment:
    30 26 16 16 13 5 7 13 29 28 24 :average=18, giving 3 units per stack

    Here is the distribution of number of units per spawned stack:
    1: 8 times
    2: 17 times
    3: 18 times
    4: 13 times
    5: 10 times
    6: none
    7: 1 time

    Looks like a bell-curve centered around 3 (i.e most likely stack size is 3, and chances get smaller as we get farther away).

    Here are the number of spawns per province:
    Provinces that spawned 6 stacks: 1 (Sahara)
    Provinces that spawned 5 stacks: 2 (Sarmatia and Tribus Lombardi)
    Provinces that spawned 4 stacks: none
    Provinces that spawned 3 stacks: 2 (Assyria and Cyrenaica)
    Provinces that spawned 2 stacks: 8 (too many to list)
    Provinces that spawned 1 stack: 23 (plus 7 pirate fleets=30).

    To me this looks like a Poisson distribution (i.e there is a small chance of spawning per province per turn. For a province to spawn more than once becomes rarer as the number of spawns increase).

    I could not detect any linkage between the "chance" parameter in descr_rebel_factions.txt and the above results.

    While I cannot rule out a possible reason that Sahara is predisposed to rebellion, my hunch is that it was pure luck (i.e if there were certain provinces predisposed to rebellion, I would have seen more than 3 provinces scoring high on rebellion number).

    The big caveat to this is that it is done under artificial conditions.

    The fact that there is no consensus on the causes of rebellions, even after a year of extensive playing, makes me think they are truly random.
    The plural of anectode is not data - Anonymous Scientist

    I don't believe in superstition. It brings bad luck. - Umberto Eco

  15. #45

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Afrit, did you note the rebel spawn and pirate spawn values in the BI descr.strat file? The default value for reble spawn is 10, which seems to me to support your observation of a distribution of spawns per turn from 2 to 9, i.e. number of spawns per turn is random number between 1 and rebel_spawn, not inclusive.
    "Let us wrestle with the ineffable and see if we may not, in fact, eff it after all." -Dirk Gently, character of the late great Douglas Adams.

  16. #46
    Member Member afrit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Pode,
    thanks for the tip. I'm gonna mod the value and repeat the experiment.
    The plural of anectode is not data - Anonymous Scientist

    I don't believe in superstition. It brings bad luck. - Umberto Eco

  17. #47

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    CA did mention that the variable in BI was a divisor, thus you can enter a value between 1 and whatever the size of the variable they used is. As such larger numbers reduce the frequency of rebels appearing while smaller numbers increase the frequency. No mention was made of this being added to RTW. He did say that other variables factored into the appearance of rebels. Mentioned forts. Didn't mention any of the other possible variables.
    Magnum

  18. #48
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Really...!!!
    Well that does it, I'm buying BI.

  19. #49
    Member Member afrit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Quote Originally Posted by magnum
    CA did mention that the variable in BI was a divisor, thus you can enter a value between 1 and whatever the size of the variable they used is.
    I sensed as much with modding trials. Decreasing the spawn value actually increased the frequency of spawning. The effect of increasing it was not as clear, which is unfortunate, since I really want to get rid of rebels altogether. I am planning more testing.

    Do you have a pointer to the thread from CA ? was it here on the .org?

    Since this is Ludus Magna, and not just modding, I want to confirm a few observations I made yesterday:

    1. Brigands never spawn in rebel controlled provinces.
    2. Brigands do not spawn in a province that already has a brigand stack. However, 2 brigand stacks may spawn simultaneously in the same province in a single turn.
    3. The total number of brigand stacks on the map may be limited. In other words, once a certain number is reached, no more are spawned. In my testing, I never counted more than 40 brigand and pirate stacks. The maximum theoretical number, 1 per province per rule 2, is obviously much higher.
    4. Brigands never die. After 20 or so turns, their name may change (i.e Captain X become Captain Y), but the number of units does not. Brigand stacks are only eliminated by merging with other stacks, or by the action of another faction. In my testing on Med/Med and Hard/Hard, brigand stacks did not increase in size either. However, I definitely remember seeing stacks grow in my regular campaign games. And CA said they do grow in size.
    5. Brigands almost always spawn on road tiles. I saw exceptions, but they were rare.
    6. There are no particular provinces that are more likely to get brigands (assuming other things being equal).


    If you know one of the above rules is correct, or incorrect, please post.
    Last edited by afrit; 10-06-2005 at 19:19.
    The plural of anectode is not data - Anonymous Scientist

    I don't believe in superstition. It brings bad luck. - Umberto Eco

  20. #50

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    I'll look for it. I'm kicking myself for not having marked it. I read 3 different RTW boards, all of which threads drop pretty quickly. If I can find it I'll link it here.

    --edit--
    Found it. It's over at the com.

    http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...ID=30038.topic
    Last edited by magnum; 10-06-2005 at 19:44.
    Magnum

  21. #51
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Quote Originally Posted by afrit
    ...I want to confirm a few observations I made yesterday:
    #2: I'm sure I've seen additional brigands spawning in provinces that already have brigands.
    #6: I think Gaul and German provinces spawn rebels at a much higher rate. However, it could be that these are simply big provinces with more room to spawn?

    If you are right about #5, maybe building a string of forts WOULD do the trick.
    Last edited by locked_thread; 10-06-2005 at 22:35.

  22. #52
    Member Member afrit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    CyanCentaur,
    thanks for the feedback. I also seem to recall rebels spawning in provinces that had a rebel before when playing regular campaigns, but after observing with fow off for 100+ turns, and never seeing 2 in the same province, I'm starting to wonder.

    magnum,
    thanks for the pointer. The CA developer (Granville) said that the spawn_value is a divisor, the higher the lower chance for spawning. Current value is 10. So CyanCentaur's prayer has been answered: brigands can be modded out!!

    I wonder whether this will mean the AI factions expand faster? I always believed that brigands hampered the AI more than the human player.

    Also, we can mod MORE brigands to research what affects their appearance and how forts influence that.
    The plural of anectode is not data - Anonymous Scientist

    I don't believe in superstition. It brings bad luck. - Umberto Eco

  23. #53
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    To expand on what Afrit has said, here's what Jambo has posted on the Colesseum patch sticky:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jambo
    Near the start of the respective descr_strat files there's a value for brigand_spawn and pirate_spawn. In BI they are 10 and 12 respectively and in RTW they are 10 and 28.

    Essentially these numerical values are divisors and therefore, the lower the number the more rebels/pirates will spawn, the higher the number the less likely they'll spawn. For example, a value of 20 for brigand_spawn will reduce the likelihood of rebels spawning by a half.

  24. #54

    Post Re: i agree

    Quote Originally Posted by player1
    Well my experience (but no real proof) says that provinces that have green loyalty AND zero unrest will gain no rebels.

    For example in my last Julii campaing I don't remember having any rebels in my central italian provinces (which had green loyalty and no unrest).

    in my latest campaign all my provinces that are green have no rebels what so ever
    Mike@J

  25. #55

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Quote Originally Posted by CyanCentaur
    I saw a map somewhere that showed rebelliousness. At the time I didn't think it referred to bandit popups, but the correlation seems high. Anyone else seen this map, and know where it is?
    I think you're probably referring to this map, which I did just to show the base unrest in the various provinces (yellow being moderate and red being high). Base unrest is highly moddable, but I'm not aware of any correlation between base unrest and spawning rebels.

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  26. #56

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    This is my first post here I have to say I really like this site alot. Very good job and really informative posting. I was very turned off by midevil total war because of these rebels I thought it was just plain stupid and didnt find any realism in a bunch of rebels just popping up I stopped playing the game 1 week into it one of the posts you guys have here has made me try the rome version and now understanding much more I really love the game.

    However my hatred for these damm rebels still is alive and well If they can be modded out as I read above I want to put my name on the list to get this somehow.

    I think they ruin the game


    thanks

    Breeze

  27. #57
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Breeze
    However my hatred for these damm rebels still is alive and well If they can be modded out as I read above I want to put my name on the list to get this somehow.
    I suspect the best thing to do is to follow Jambo's instructions that I quoted and mod them to be less likely yourself. The descr_strat.txt file you need to edit is a text file, so it is easy to change with notepad or something similar. It is in:

    C:\Program Files\Activision\Rome - Total War\bi\data\world\maps\campaign\barbarian_invasion

    and changed "brigand_spawn_value" to "80". I still get a few rebels but they are very rare. I think I'll mod the pirates down too, as they seem to stack and get too powerful over time.

    Obviously make a copy of the original just in case something goes wrong, but it should not.

  28. #58
    Member Member Razor1952's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Breeze there are several ways to approach the problem of rebels including several postives.

    1. Usually rebels are easily beaten and add valuable chevrons to your troops, so they can seen as a training exercise . Try to use only a few units to get maximum value , when these units are retrained you get new higher chevron troops to fill out your depleted unit!.

    2. Some provinces have such poor trade that its not worth eliminating them anyway.

    3. They serve as a type of defense in border provinces, the ai will rarely(if ever?) attack them in your province. Place watchtowers which attract the rebels to them at choke points and you have instant cheap defence.


    4. Alternatively you can mod them as above or you can mod the rebel units so only unique very low cost rebel units will appear, these can then be bribed.(because they have a very low cost base in the relaevant txt files).

    5 There are also apparently new mod options in 1.3 but I'm no guru here so someone else may care to comment.
    Such is life- Ned Kelly -his last words just before he was hanged.

  29. #59

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    I will just post this for now, don't have much time to catch up with all posts before me.

    Taxes, in my cities with low tax rate, I had no 1 unit of rebels popping out. Though, while high/very high tax, every 2 turns I might get one.

    I play on VeryH/VeryH.
    Will give you more clarification tommorow.
    "Cry, the beloved country, for the unborn child that is the inheritor of our fear. Let him not love the earth too deeply. Let him not laugh too gladly when the water runs through his fingers, nor stand too silent when the setting sun makes red the veld with fire. Let him not be moved when the birds of his land are singing, nor give too much of his heart to a mountain or a valley. For fear will rob him of all if he gives too much."

    Cry, the Beloved Country by Alan Paton.

  30. #60

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    As you all may now, I play the Saissaidn Campagin. Till now, I have these provinces:

    Hatra, Dumatha, Selucia, Arsakia, Pharaasba, Artaxarta and Kotais.

    In Selucia (Ex-Capital), the tax is set to very high, and every 2 turn I get a rebel army door to door with the settlement. It's garrisoned by 2 ele, 2 catas, 1 cilib and 3 generals along with soem Spearmen and Archers (High Garrison).

    In Hatra, the tax is set to high, and I the average of rebel armies is around 2 per 10 turns. High Garrison.

    In Dumatha, low tax rate, no rebels.

    In Arsakia, when it was set to very high, I had had many rebels. But now as low, no rebels.

    In Artaxarta, same as Arsakia.

    Kotais, low tax rate, no rebels. No Garrison (Only 1 uper-general).

    The thing annoying is those rebels in both, Seleucia and Hatra, they keep cutting the trade bad.
    "Cry, the beloved country, for the unborn child that is the inheritor of our fear. Let him not love the earth too deeply. Let him not laugh too gladly when the water runs through his fingers, nor stand too silent when the setting sun makes red the veld with fire. Let him not be moved when the birds of his land are singing, nor give too much of his heart to a mountain or a valley. For fear will rob him of all if he gives too much."

    Cry, the Beloved Country by Alan Paton.

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