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Thread: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

  1. #61

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    I put Forts on every roads next to the borders, and rebels didn't appear very often in a Normal/Normal game. They still spawn once a while but didn't cause serious problems for me.
    Last edited by Togugawa; 01-04-2006 at 18:27.

  2. #62
    Member Member Orvis Tertia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    I have done no testing on this subject, but from my observations during play and from reading this thread, I suspect that the problem lies in looking for only one or two triggers for rebels.

    Does it not seem likely that there is a variety of factors that all increase or decrease the likelihood of rebels?

    One factor that I have not seen mentioned here, but I always assumed was of high significance, is the length of time you have held a territory. It seems that I most often get rebels in my starting territories early in the game, but as time goes on they disappear from there and begin appearing in newly acquired territories.

    There seems to be a high level of confidence that forts reduce the chance for rebels. I would not be surprised if unrest, tax level, enemy spies, religious differences (in BI), proximity to your armies, squalor and even trade (might more brigands be attracted to high-trade routes) are all factors affecting rebel spawns. Think in terms of each of these adding or subtracting percentage points to the spawn chance. Of course, if this is the case, it would make it very difficult to pinpoint the variables at work. But since there seems to be great difficulty in pinpointing the variables at work...

    Another thing that I have observed is that rebels seem most often to spawn in the most inconvenient spots. Rarely, if ever, do they pop up just a short stroll from my heavily garrisoned city. Most often, they pop up in just the spot that is going to take me two turns to travel to. This makes me think that there is some connection to physical distance from your armies. Either that, or there are hardcoded hot spots that were selected because of their inaccessibility from towns.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orvis Tertia
    One factor that I have not seen mentioned here, but I always assumed was of high significance, is the length of time you have held a territory. It seems that I most often get rebels in my starting territories early in the game, but as time goes on they disappear from there and begin appearing in newly acquired territories.
    Yes, I was about to post something similar. I'm playing the EB mod as Rome and had rebels turn up about every turn at the beginning of the game. Now it's 248BC and they are nowhere to be found. I thought it might be because I had pacified Italy simply through holding it for a long time.

    But that does not explain why I am also not seeing many rebels in newly conquered Illyria and some Gaulish towns. Perhaps the fact that there are less rebel towns near me (they all belong to factions) is significant?

  4. #64

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Does anyone know if there's a separate thread or discussion about what exactly causes rebellion to another faction? Vs. rebellion to a rebel province.

    I thought I knew that it was always either to rebel or faction_creator, but I've now seen them rebel to faction_culture if the attacking (and temporarily possessing faction) was the one specified as faction_creator. I still have no idea why it sometimes goes to just plain rebel though.

  5. #65
    Member Member Avicenna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carth
    Why are people trying to remove rebels? I always thought they were good practice, and they've never been a threat. I like to take the smallest army I can against them and see if I can win, and then your units get experience and your general gets command stars.
    getting more generals is probably the main benefit from rebels: nice easy heroic win without many losses, close to city to retrain.
    Student by day, bacon-eating narwhal by night (specifically midnight)

  6. #66
    RTW V1.5 & BI V1.6 Member Severous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    I run my towns with highest taxes I can without causing riots. I will run at 70% and red faces if thats what it takes to get more tax.

    I dont detect any link to rebel units appearing.

    Pity. Im quite happy fighting rebels.
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    (RTW Eras: RTW V1.5 and BI V1.6 No Mods)

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  7. #67

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    I did no special research, but some times rebels are really annoying. So I made operations big enough to conquer many provinces to kill those scum.
    I am pretty sure that at least unrest does affect rebels. If you send in spies into enemy cities and turn them rebellous, rebels often pop up. That is the effect of unrest.
    I think that loyality do affect rebels too, but only at a much lower rate.
    I found not may proves that forts do help to calm down potential rebel behavor. They often appeared close to my forts, so I stopped to use this costly tool.
    Watchtowers do not affect rebels. But I use to cover my main routes by towers to SEE any rebels there and to kill them with some forces as soon as possible.
    If rebels are in a province unharmed over a longer time, the unrest ist raising in their cities and make it more likely that further rebels will pop up.
    I got the intention that rebel armies that are unharmed over a long period do gain experience in BI 1.6.
    One very important point concerning rebels is the provinces you own. There are several provinces with a high chance to see them rising. As for example in Germany, Ukraina and Judea.

    Yes, I do hate rebels but the poor peasants to train my general. I hope my post helps a bit to research a proper solution.

  8. #68
    DECEBALVS PER SCORILO Member Diurpaneus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?


  9. #69
    RTW V1.5 & BI V1.6 Member Severous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Quote:
    "If rebels are in a province unharmed over a longer time, the unrest is raising in their cities and make it more likely that further rebels will pop up."

    I tend to kill rebels as soon as I can. To prevent the devastation they do to the land which costs you money.

    But do rebels left in your lands really cause unrest in your city ? Ive not seen this but maybe because I do kill them quick. Will rebels attract more rebels ? Has anyone else seen this and is it something we could exploit in some way?
    Regards
    (RTW Eras: RTW V1.5 and BI V1.6 No Mods)

    Currently writing a Scipii AAR (with pictures)
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  10. #70

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    There seems to be some kind of radius effect. I had a group of rebels spring up near Dimmidi (RTW 1.5 playing as Carthage) and it appeared to change what I believe had been a yellow face into a red one. They were very, very close to the city (though not besieging).

  11. #71
    Member Member TheViking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    just found this thread. i dont cope to read thru all posts

    i just wonder if the rebels standing on roads stops the trading for the city?
    There I see my father.
    There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
    There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
    They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.

    TheViking a.k.a AggonyViking a.k.a FearTheViking a.k.a WildboarViking

  12. #72
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheViking
    i just wonder if the rebels standing on roads stops the trading for the city?
    I believe they do - it may be shown in the city details as a faded and/or flashing trade icon, I forget which.

  13. #73
    RTW V1.5 & BI V1.6 Member Severous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Hi

    We are going a little off topic.

    But...

    Rebels appeared in the Apollonia region. They did not stop land trade...but then there were no roads in the province at the time.

    Macedonian army arched on Thermon. They stopped on the road between the city and the port. This stopped the sea trade Thermon had been engaged in.

    Its a definate yes that rebels will stop trade if they are on the road. The animations moving along the road, that signify trade, will stop.

    Same with pirates at sea?

    Im still interested in the recent question. Will rebels attract more rebels.
    Regards
    (RTW Eras: RTW V1.5 and BI V1.6 No Mods)

    Currently writing a Scipii AAR (with pictures)
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    Barbarian Invasion. Franks hold out against the world.
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  14. #74
    Member Member TheViking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Severous
    Im still interested in the recent question. Will rebels attract more rebels.
    im almost sure its like that. if i leave rebels alone for to long there pop up lots of the rebel armies
    There I see my father.
    There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
    There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
    They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.

    TheViking a.k.a AggonyViking a.k.a FearTheViking a.k.a WildboarViking

  15. #75
    DECEBALVS PER SCORILO Member Diurpaneus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    I think rebel appearance has something to do with the years....like eveniments are....because several times rebels appeared on the same year....egg in Julii campaigns...rebels almost always appears in the Arimium provence ,after 4-5 turns

  16. #76

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    I will say this, try to play your whole campaign with Low Tax Rate and you'll see how many rebels you get..
    "Cry, the beloved country, for the unborn child that is the inheritor of our fear. Let him not love the earth too deeply. Let him not laugh too gladly when the water runs through his fingers, nor stand too silent when the setting sun makes red the veld with fire. Let him not be moved when the birds of his land are singing, nor give too much of his heart to a mountain or a valley. For fear will rob him of all if he gives too much."

    Cry, the Beloved Country by Alan Paton.

  17. #77
    RTW V1.5 & BI V1.6 Member Severous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Hi

    x-danger...are you saying low tax affects rebels appearance ?


    Rebels and Trade routes:



    This rebel unit is on a road. It halved the value of land trade that was passing between Tarentum and Capua. There was no effect on trade along other routes..no effect of Croton to Capua for instance.

    Once the rebels were killed trade income doubled back to normal.

    You can also see a pirate ship right near Croton port/sea lanes. It is not affecting sea trade income.

    Rebels and City unrest:

    I also had a rebel unit right next to Tylis when I captured it from Thrace. Unrest in Tylis was 45%. I immediately attacked the rebels..who retreated away from Tylis. Unrest remained at 45%. Then wiped out the rebels. Unrest remained at 45%. So those rebels didnt have any effect on unrest in Tylis.
    Regards
    (RTW Eras: RTW V1.5 and BI V1.6 No Mods)

    Currently writing a Scipii AAR (with pictures)
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=91877

    Barbarian Invasion. Franks hold out against the world.
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  18. #78

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Yes, I'm saying that taxes effect the chance of rebels appearing. Their will always be a chance of them to appear, but it's quite low when low tax rate is the one hanging.
    "Cry, the beloved country, for the unborn child that is the inheritor of our fear. Let him not love the earth too deeply. Let him not laugh too gladly when the water runs through his fingers, nor stand too silent when the setting sun makes red the veld with fire. Let him not be moved when the birds of his land are singing, nor give too much of his heart to a mountain or a valley. For fear will rob him of all if he gives too much."

    Cry, the Beloved Country by Alan Paton.

  19. #79
    RTW V1.5 & BI V1.6 Member Severous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Hi

    RTW V1.5 No Mods

    Playing on H/H difficulty and Large unit settings. Brutii Campaign



    Unusually I had two towns with no troops in them. Tax on very high and 0% public order. I couldnt control them so I though I might as well screw as much tax as I could. Both towns had riots and both had rebels appear in the region.

    I thought there might be a link between those circumstances and rebels so came looking for research..and found this thread. I see theres no hard facts on cause of rebels.

    Ive looked back over my battle records to see how many rebels fought.
    - Its summer 256.
    - Logged 90 wins and 6 defeats.
    - 68 land battles involved combat
    41 against factions
    7 against rebel towns
    20 against rebels

    Fighting factions most turns yet still have rebels appearing...near battles and far from battles. Conclusion...expect rebels anywhere.
    Regards
    (RTW Eras: RTW V1.5 and BI V1.6 No Mods)

    Currently writing a Scipii AAR (with pictures)
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=91877

    Barbarian Invasion. Franks hold out against the world.
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  20. #80

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Severous
    Hi
    Rebels and City unrest:

    I also had a rebel unit right next to Tylis when I captured it from Thrace. Unrest in Tylis was 45%. I immediately attacked the rebels..who retreated away from Tylis. Unrest remained at 45%. Then wiped out the rebels. Unrest remained at 45%. So those rebels didnt have any effect on unrest in Tylis.
    I am not that sure about all of your conclusion. You only proved that loyalty is not directly affected by rebel armies. You have to differ between “unrest” and loyalty to find the facts!

    I my theory, relating to my post above is the following: I am talking about those "unrest" icons in the city details. The more "unrest" icons you have in your city details, the more rebel armies are likely to appear.

    1st Some ways to raise “unrest”:
    Same with foreign armies: Huge, unallied stacks for foreign armies raise the number of "unrest" icons too. This must not happened in the same turn armies pop up or move into a province, but you can track it in upcoming turns. Rebel armies are always hostile and do similar.
    A spy inside of a foreign city improves the same "unrest".
    All this affects the chance that rebel armies will pop up in your province.

    2nd When will “unrest” affect the loyalty of a city?
    Only when the city details show that any bad affects (high taxes, bad traits of leaders, penalties for the wrong culture, corruption, waste and what else is showing in these details) are bigger but the positive affects (loyalty buildings, law, big garrisons....), the loyalty will fall down and the chance of rioting citizens INSIDE of a city will is improving.

    3rd Random Rebels:
    I always thought that when provinces are not very loyal or close to rebel it will only affect the city where it happens and the province alone. That is not completely true. I made the experience that if you have several “close-to-rebel” cities, the chance for new rebel armies in all of your empire gets higher.
    Those rebel armies elsewhere will following the same rules of “unrest” I showed up earlier in this post under my 1st point.

    In conclusion the best you can do against rioting citizens apart of good governors and big units (the more men are serving, the better they work = mass, not class is working best here) is to work with own spies inside your towns. “Counter-spies” will affect both: Calm down unhappy citizens from rioting and to decree the chance to see pop up some rebel armies in your province.
    Meanwhile I changed my mind about the use of Forts. No matter how big the army garrisoned there is, they do some minor effects in preventing to let rebel armies appear. But I still think that the other measures I wrote will work better.

    Relating on RTW 1.5 & earlier versions - no mods
    Last edited by teja; 09-09-2006 at 13:13.

  21. #81

    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    A humble and fairly ignorant hunch-

    I am wondering if the hiring of mercenaries could in any way affect the number of rebels that pop up in a given province. If you trot a family member out of a city regularly and hire every mercenary there is to hire could that possibly reduce the number of rebels that will/could pop up in that province?

    Thinking in real terms rather than game terms, it seems if you put as much of the overall population (urban and the 'uncounted' rural people) to some productive use, you will have less of a problem with them. eg. less squalor, less banditry outside city walls.

    I game terms, perhaps there is a base "hidden" pool of rural population that is always there and each turn there are triggers which will increase the chance of the appearence of rebels/availabilty of mercenaries for hire. The family member triggering an increased chance of hiring from the pool, other factors triggering an increased chance of the appearence of rebelion, a fort generaly balancing both merc/rebel chances out. For example, a fort could increase the chance of mercs for hire naturaly decreasing the possibility of a rebel appearence.

    Rebels as the rural version of squalor.

    Any thoughts?
    Last edited by GottMitUns; 10-06-2006 at 05:35.

  22. #82
    RTW V1.5 & BI V1.6 Member Severous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Hi

    Usually I hire all I can. Rebels still appear. In my current campaign I rarely hire mercenaries. Rebels still appear.

    It doesnt feel that there is any correlation between rebel appearance and the number of mercenary hires.

    Any one else?
    Regards
    (RTW Eras: RTW V1.5 and BI V1.6 No Mods)

    Currently writing a Scipii AAR (with pictures)
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    Barbarian Invasion. Franks hold out against the world.
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  23. #83
    Harbinger of the Doomed Rat Member Biggus Diccus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    In my current VH/M Alexander campaign I had multiple large battles every turn until turn 20 (80 turns left) and I saw no rebels appearing in my territories during this time. When I took a break to retrain my troops and bring up reinforcements 3-5 stacks of rebels popped up every turn in my provinces. It was so annoying that I stacked some generals together and used unlimited movement cheat and auto_win to autocalc them all to death. It was just too boring to hunt them all down.

    Too bad you can't remove or tone down the rebel appearences in this game. Fighting 4-5 battles against rebels every turn is just plain annoying and boring.
    General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmaney Melchett: That's the spirit, George. If nothing else works, then a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.

  24. #84
    Man with a Hat Member bedlam28's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Hi all.

    A very long thread to read through, but I've gleaned some good ideas from the comments.

    One thread on this that I havent seen mentioned but I have experienced - just through gameplay not experimentation =

    when I take a city and massacre it I dont seem to get rebels near my home cities, but when I keep the populace alive for slavery I seem to get more; this just seemed to me to be a realistic add on
    ie: a train of slaves are now crossing my territories to go to my cities to be added to the population; unfortunately not all of them stay in line and some escape to become rebels.

    how does this fit in to the model everyone is working here????
    Let us create BEDLAM

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    All right ... all right ... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order ... what HAVE the Romans ever done for US?

  25. #85
    Anno Domini MXVI Member Member HighLord z0b's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    A friend recently played RTW for the first time and the first time he saw rebels the advisor came up saying that a good way of decreasing the chance of rebels is by building forts nearby.

    I know this is just one of many factors but I figure if CA programmed it to tell you it must have a fairly significant effect. I wouldn't know because I never bother building forts.

  26. #86
    Member Member shizzernockers3's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    you can limit how often they apear

  27. #87
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Don't know if this has been mentioned before, but there are certain spawning spots for rebels. Build a fort on that spot and no more spawns. This doesn't work for spots next to cities or other landmarks, since forts cannot be built on precisely those places, and precision is necessary. Bad luck if you've built a watchtower on the spot or nextdoor, since this will also prevent the building of said fort.

    One tactic is to wait for rebels to appear, then attack with a much larger force, making the rebels retreat and leaving you in control of the spawning square. Before doing anything else, build a fort where you stand, then moving on to fight the rebels. If you keep the fort garrisoned (with the cheapest possible unit in upkeep terms, possibly understrength since the intention is to occupy rather than fight), no more rebels in that spot for the rest of the game.

  28. #88
    Member Member Crash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Good tip! I had suspected that there were spawning spots and had considered building a fort on one precise spot that I had discovered but never got around to it until last night.

    I also suspect that the bigger and richer your empire gets, any unrest due to high taxes will contribute to increasing rebel appearances but that's only my anecdotal experience, not based on any scientific investigation.

  29. #89
    GarbageMan next door Member Miloshus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    The best cure for rebels is exterminating every city when you capture it. You get money, people get killing even outside arenas and everybody is happy.
    But the problem appears when your capital is going to riot- in that case you just move your army out of the capital, and you try to recapture it (dont try it if you have a small army), when you recapture it, you exterminate three quarters of population, and again-everybody is happy!
    A nother option is construction of forts,
    I always use the first one, even on hard difficulty.
    So I have collected about 190.000 denarii.

  30. #90
    GarbageMan next door Member Miloshus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: what causes rebels to appear?

    Oh, and I forgot to say, dont mind about Rebel armies, all they do is just a little devastation, so building forts just for stopping the Rebel armies to spawn is a bad Idea, you could use that money for recruting new units, but if you hate rebels more than anything else then be more than happy to build the fort.

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