Ivar the Boneless

**CountMRVHS** · 07-06-2005, 20:14

Don't know where you'll find a map that details the kind of thing you're looking for, as nobody really knows exactly what areas were under whose control at the time. Fortunately there are a lot of good sources out there which give a rough idea of how things may have looked. Just have a look on amazon or the library; I do all my research in book form (as opposed to internet) so all I can do is recommend these books:

The Anglo-Saxons, James Campbell, Ed.
Mercia and the Making of England
Osprey books like: Anglo-Saxon Thegn; and Arthur and the Anglo-Saxon Wars

On another note, one thing you might consider is a very simple change in the startpos file of the Viking campaign. There's an area where you can set the Faction Behaviour. The Vikings are set to BARBARIAN_RAIDER, and thus are always bombarding other factions with tiny armies that will never hold the lands they conquer. Maybe, in combination with other changes, try changing their behavior to CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST or ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST (AFAIK the religion doesn't matter here; you can, for example, change the Welsh to BARBARIAN_RAIDER even though they're Catholic.... it actually makes for a rather interesting first few years if you're Mercia!). Maybe one of those possibilities will lead to them building more logical empires and thus getting stronger.

Also, just giving the Vikings some extra buildings might help. Once I tried this and gave them a trader building in Jutland and Hordaland, as well as a total of 12 Snekkjas and 10000 florins to start.

Good luck!

CountMRVHS

**antisocialmunky** · 07-07-2005, 00:53

Well, I just liked to think that taking two armies and cutting England in half is kinda... well... unrealistic.

**Grey_Fox** · 07-07-2005, 01:31

How can it be unrealistic when it happened in real life?

**Eternal Champion** · 07-07-2005, 13:03

LOL - That's a great sig

**antisocialmunky** · 07-07-2005, 13:52

Originally Posted by Grey_Fox

How can it be unrealistic when it happened in real life?

Well... let me rephrase that as I was thinking more specifically aobut the Vikings. I just don't like the idea that a few hundred vikings can effectively hold about 120 km long strip of land and stop everyone who comes.

Though, I'm not well versed in the Viking era so I'll defer to you Foxy.

That is a nice sig.

Oh, and here's a chunk of post 866(I don't know how much it'll help you)map fo you:

http://www.maisonstclaire.org/maps/e...after_866.html

**amagi** · 07-07-2005, 18:07

Thanks for the faction behaviour advice, CountMRVHS. What happened when you gave the Vikings traders and extra ships and money?

Ivar was King of Dublin and brought his part of the Great Army from there, so there should also be a Viking presence in Ireland.

The lords of Kent and Essex had been badly beaten by the Vikings in the 850's and stayed neutral. The kingdom of East Anglia gave provisions and quarters to the Great Army but wasn't actually conquered until after the capture of York. It might be better to start the Vikings in York, with the Northumbrians about to make the attempt to retake the city that cost them both their kings.

**Grey_Fox** · 07-08-2005, 00:55

Well when the Ivar and Ubba first invaded Northumbria in 866, their army numbered around 800 men. When they invaded East Anglia they had about 1200 men, and when the invaded Mercia they had 1500 or so, and these numbers are easily made up in game as it is.

The sig is nice, however I cannot take the credit for it, as I was graciously allowed to use it by a guy named Obake, and unfortunately the quality was decreased in order to be less hard on 56k modems.

**amagi** · 07-08-2005, 19:33

The Vikings also ruled Manau from the mid-ninth century on, and used it as a haven when they were driven out of Ireland. If the Vikings control Dere, Brega and Manau in 866, they can finance their original seven starting units and have some change left over, but that doesn't help when costing the Great Army and garrisons in Man and Ireland.

The problem in the original game is that the Vikings have unimproved homelands and a large current deficit which means that the AI can't afford to buy units or buildings. The Picts, Mercians and Saxons have large surpluses, allowing them to build quickly and making the Vikings much less fearsome.

The Great Army was successful not because of numbers but because the Vikings murdered the ruling elites of the lands they conquered, leaving the population without the means to finance or organise armies, and possibly little worse off, despite the depredations. Their numbers are often said to have been about two or three thousand. I haven't discovered a figure as low as Grey_Fox's eight hundred, and I have come across estimates of as many ten thousand, which would give them about twice the numbers of the population of the large towns of the time.

Also, the Vikings had several leaders, which would mean four or five Huscarl units, very expensive, even if the supporting units are the cheaper Carls. Has anyone got a suggestion as to how many real raiders or peasants each Viking Invasion fighting man is meant to represent?