Ivar the Boneless

**antisocialmunky** · 07-07-2005, 13:52

Originally Posted by Grey_Fox

How can it be unrealistic when it happened in real life?

Well... let me rephrase that as I was thinking more specifically aobut the Vikings. I just don't like the idea that a few hundred vikings can effectively hold about 120 km long strip of land and stop everyone who comes.

Though, I'm not well versed in the Viking era so I'll defer to you Foxy.

That is a nice sig.

Oh, and here's a chunk of post 866(I don't know how much it'll help you)map fo you:

http://www.maisonstclaire.org/maps/e...after_866.html

**amagi** · 07-07-2005, 18:07

Thanks for the faction behaviour advice, CountMRVHS. What happened when you gave the Vikings traders and extra ships and money?

Ivar was King of Dublin and brought his part of the Great Army from there, so there should also be a Viking presence in Ireland.

The lords of Kent and Essex had been badly beaten by the Vikings in the 850's and stayed neutral. The kingdom of East Anglia gave provisions and quarters to the Great Army but wasn't actually conquered until after the capture of York. It might be better to start the Vikings in York, with the Northumbrians about to make the attempt to retake the city that cost them both their kings.

**Grey_Fox** · 07-08-2005, 00:55

Well when the Ivar and Ubba first invaded Northumbria in 866, their army numbered around 800 men. When they invaded East Anglia they had about 1200 men, and when the invaded Mercia they had 1500 or so, and these numbers are easily made up in game as it is.

The sig is nice, however I cannot take the credit for it, as I was graciously allowed to use it by a guy named Obake, and unfortunately the quality was decreased in order to be less hard on 56k modems.

**amagi** · 07-08-2005, 19:33

The Vikings also ruled Manau from the mid-ninth century on, and used it as a haven when they were driven out of Ireland. If the Vikings control Dere, Brega and Manau in 866, they can finance their original seven starting units and have some change left over, but that doesn't help when costing the Great Army and garrisons in Man and Ireland.

The problem in the original game is that the Vikings have unimproved homelands and a large current deficit which means that the AI can't afford to buy units or buildings. The Picts, Mercians and Saxons have large surpluses, allowing them to build quickly and making the Vikings much less fearsome.

The Great Army was successful not because of numbers but because the Vikings murdered the ruling elites of the lands they conquered, leaving the population without the means to finance or organise armies, and possibly little worse off, despite the depredations. Their numbers are often said to have been about two or three thousand. I haven't discovered a figure as low as Grey_Fox's eight hundred, and I have come across estimates of as many ten thousand, which would give them about twice the numbers of the population of the large towns of the time.

Also, the Vikings had several leaders, which would mean four or five Huscarl units, very expensive, even if the supporting units are the cheaper Carls. Has anyone got a suggestion as to how many real raiders or peasants each Viking Invasion fighting man is meant to represent?

**amagi** · 07-09-2005, 11:28

There are other map changes from 793.

Wessex crushed Dumnonia by 800, though Cornwall was independent to 920.

Most of Wales was united under Rhodri 'Mawr' ( 'the Great' ).

The Picts were defeated by the Vikings in a battle in 839 and most of the Pictish nobility were killed or murdered. The rest were killed by the Scots, and in 866 Constantine I of Scotland is the king of the Picts and Scots, though the Vikings control the west coast down to the Clyde and all the territory west of Moray Firth. Constantine's territory is limited to Dalriada, Aberdeenshire and the central highlands.

The Irish are a problem, since the High Kingship is alternating between the north and Brega, where Teamhair (Tara) is located, but Brega is also the best province to represent the Viking presence in Dublin. Perhaps the Vikings should have Leinster instead.

**antisocialmunky** · 07-09-2005, 12:16

Why don't we set Viking unit upkeep to zero and only give the boats upkeep? That would be challenging if the Vikings came in force.

That or we could give the Vikings a special building that generates enough cash per turn to support X amount of vikings?

**amagi** · 07-10-2005, 11:32

Barocca's Beefy Vikings have two silver mines, as well as four more snekkjas, and an extra castle with additional buildings to match. Their behaviour is still set to 'Barbarian Raider', though, and they don't get more at start florins.

Ivar becomes 'Yngvar' in Viking Invasion. I have yet to work out the mysteries of the 'heroes' file, but one regret is that Constantine's uncle and predecessor didn't make it to 866. He was known as Donald 'the wanton son of the foreign woman'. Very regal. A modern translation might be 'deliberately unsupervised playground for technology'.