Al Qaeda

[Papewaio]

Tribesman,
Scary fact I learned today... over 80% of the mosques in the USA receiving funding from Wahabist families back in Saudi Arabia.

2 things.

The House of Saud is amazingly rich and are Wahabists.

Al Qaeda hates the House of Saud.

Al-Qaida also has its origins in a particular nationalist struggle; namely, rebellion against the royal family of Saudi Arabia. The Saudi regime is perceived as being too closely associated with American foreign policy, particularly through its support of the US liberation of Kuwait during the first Gulf War. Since Al-Qaida's ideology is one of pan-Islamic nationalism and solidarity, the Saudi regime was thereafter seen as insufficiently Islamic; although such a view is bewildering to Westerners, who cannot imagine anything more 'Islamic' than the country's Wahhabi brand of Islamic law. To Al-Qaida in particular, the world is viewed as a struggle as their Islamic ideology versus a secular Western ideology. This view of the world has ironically been strengthened by the War on Terror.

Wahhabism
Perhaps the most influential strain of thought, however, came from the Wahhabi movement in Saudi Arabia. The Wahhabists, who emerged in the 18th century led by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, also believed that it was necessary to live according to the strict dictates of Islam, which they interpreted to mean living in the manner that the prophet Muhammad and his followers had lived in during the seventh century in Medina. Consequently they were opposed to many innovations developed since that time, including the minaret, marked graves, and later television and radios. The Wahhabis also considered those Muslims who violated their strict interpretation to be heretics, and thus used violence against other Muslims. When King Abdul Aziz al-Saud founded Saudi Arabia, he brought the Wahhabists into power with him. With Saud's rise to prominence, Wahhabism spread, especially following the 1973 oil embargo and the glut of oil wealth that resulted for Saudi Arabia. The Wahhabists were proseltyizers, and made use of their wealth to spread their interpretation of Islam far and wide.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

It sounds like an "extremist Moslem Civil War." Was that supposed to make me feel better about this:

over 80% of the mosques in the USA receiving funding from Wahabist families back in Saudi Arabia.

[ichi]

I just don't get it.

of course you don't , its insanity

ichi

[Don Corleone]

2 things.

The House of Saud is amazingly rich and are Wahabists.

Al Qaeda hates the House of Saud.

Yeah, but all of the madrases in Pakistan & Afghanistan that trained Al Queda were Wahabist. It sounds like you've got two powerful Wahabist groups: the house of Saud & Al Queda, fighting over who wields the more pure form of their extremism. Talk about a Gordian knot...

[Papewaio]

The worst battles are always ironically named Civil Wars...

[Don Corleone]

It's not a civil war, as their efforts against each other are rather limited. I don't know exactly what you'd call what's going on over there, other than... ugly.

[Steppe Merc]

So does the type of Islam that Al Quedia and co. have a name? If it isn't Wahhabism, what is it? I know that bin Laden wants everyone to follow the "true" Islam, but does that even have a name?

[Don Corleone]

So does the type of Islam that Al Quedia and co. have a name? If it isn't Wahhabism, what is it? I know that bin Laden wants everyone to follow the "true" Islam, but does that even have a name?

It is Wahabism. That was my point. You have two factions within this particular sect that orignally were in a symbiotic relationship but have come as far as they can together and have turned on each other. But make no mistake about it, the mullahs over in Saudi Arabia don't sound all that different than the letters you receive just after an Al Queda attack.

This all finally makes sense to me, and my apologies to Faisal, Bmolsson and any other Muslim I've offended in the course of stumbling through trying to figure this all out. Most of you probably aren't even in this Wahabist school, let alone the faction of it that's trying to carry out armed conflict with the rest of the planet. I was wrong in my generalizations, and I hope, with your help, to limit that in the future. ~

[kiwitt]

Extremists hate their own countrymen if they work for the 'enemy'. They hate them even more than the enemy.

I agree.

I can still remember in Northern Ireland when one religious group attacked another's religious group's children who just trying to get to school. And they were still their own countrymen.

[JimBob]

What they're doing makes perfect sense. They want the Iraqi government to fall, they want it destabilized and isolated. So to do that you chase the diplomats out the government collapses and the extremist Mullahs, self righteous monkeys that they are, move in seize power, and stone people for adultery.

[Tribesman]

stone people for adultery.
Stoning for adultery .... thats nothing , they are shooting barbers for shaving people .... f*****g crazy .

[Don Corleone]

Huh, yeah, and yet somehow, a lot of you on the Left think there's a way to placate these jokers. If only we could do the right thing... say the right words...

Let me tell you something, we are the wrong race, wrong creed and wrong language group to ever be accepted by these guys. They don't accept Bosnians, who've been Muslim for over 600 years, they sure as shit ain't gonna make peace with us. (Wahabists that is)

[Tribesman]

Huh, yeah, and yet somehow, a lot of you on the Left think there's a way to placate these jokers.
No , a lot of people think the way is to isolate these sickos and stop giving the less sick jokers reasons to jump on the bandwagon with the real evil bastards .

[Steppe Merc]

I think I'd probably have to agree with you, Don. They don't seem to have any logical demands or anything. It's not like traditional terrorists, that have demands, or (often very weak, to be sure) political motives. It's more of a "kill everyone we don't like" sort of thing, I think.

[King of Atlantis]

Don Corleone,

Being in North Carolina im sure you know about that weed that grows uncontrollably over entire forest(cant remmember the name). The harder people try to cut it down, the faster it grows. Until we find a chemical that kills this plant off there is little hope of stopping its spread.

This plant reminds me of the war on terror. We have this bad weed. So were are trying to cut it away before it spreads, but this weed is just growing. We can be on a war on terror for all our lives, but the radicals will probably never be defeated. Sure you cant rationalize with people like osmama bin laden, but the is obviously a reason for people turning out like that. They are growing up in an enviroment of propogana and hate. Until we fix what is making these terrorist, then there will continue being terrorist.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

2 things.

The House of Saud is amazingly rich and are Wahabists.

Al Qaeda hates the House of Saud.

One more thing. Bin Laden is a prince of the house of Saudi. Its more like a family squabal.

They are growing up in an enviroment of propogana and hate. Until we fix what is making these terrorist, then there will continue being terrorist.

And that enviroment of propogana and hate is radical Islam. How do you suggest we fix it?

[Don Corleone]

Tribesman,
I've been going around and around on this all day. Seems to me that by playing up to them, all you do is shift their marketing message, not the marketing itself.

Tell me, after they bombed the Khobar towers (1996), and we didn't do anything but wring our hands, did they have recruitment problems?

And after the blew up two of our embassies (1998), and again, no response, did that seem to slow them down?

I GOT IT!!! We'll take a direct hit on a destroyer (2000), and limit ourselves to tough talk! That should do it... Nope, cause the very next year, they try again. But this time, we retaliate.... and all of a sudden, we're the one's causing the trouble.

Sorry man, you're gonna have to do better than that.

[Don Corleone]

Don Corleone,

Being in North Carolina im sure you know about that weed that grows uncontrollably over entire forest(cant remmember the name). The harder people try to cut it down, the faster it grows. Until we find a chemical that kills this plant off there is little hope of stopping its spread.

This plant reminds me of the war on terror. We have this bad weed. So were are trying to cut it away before it spreads, but this weed is just growing. We can be on a war on terror for all our lives, but the radicals will probably never be defeated. Sure you cant rationalize with people like osmama bin laden, but the is obviously a reason for people turning out like that. They are growing up in an enviroment of propogana and hate. Until we fix what is making these terrorist, then there will continue being terrorist.

It's called Kudzu. And I agree, you don't fertilize the crap. You don't keep sending money and arms to it's source (Saudi Arabia). But you also don't let it grow over your house and tear it apart while you're trying to figure out a cure.

Look folks, this is simple. We're not going to find a way to force them to change their belief structure. Even if there was a way, and I honestly don't believer there is one, we are not the messengers. Listen to what Bin Laden says. Gawain's right. He's not playing around.... Convert to Islam, implment Sharia, accept your role as our servants, there is no other way. You know what, he's right, there is no other way. Just 2, him or us. I'm for us.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

What I really find strange is those on the left who say we need to understand these bastards and negogiate with them would be the first ones to be executed if these guys took over. Can you imagine Jag and the rest of you non religous people posting your views on god with these people in charge. Isalmo Facshists once more are the best example I know of conservatism taken to extremes. Its truly frightning. You liberals would be toast just for thinking what you think.

[Papewaio]

Wikipedia:

Osama Bin Laden was born in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, to Muhammad Awad bin Ladin, a wealthy businessman involved in construction and with close ties to the Saudi royal family. There is no definitive account of the number of children born to Mohammed bin Laden, but the number is generally put at 54. In addition, various accounts place Osama as his seventeenth son, while others say he was the last of 25 sons.

After Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990, bin Laden offered to help defend Saudi Arabia (with 12,000 armed men) but was rebuffed by the Saudi government. Bin Laden publicly denounced his government's dependence on the U.S. military and demanded an end to the presence of foreign military bases in the country. According to reports (by the BBC and others), the 1990/91 deployment of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia in connection with the Gulf War profoundly shocked and revolted bin Laden and other Islamist militants because the Saudi government claims legitimacy based on their role as guardians of the sacred Muslim cities of Mecca and Medina. After the Gulf War, the establishment of permanent bases for non-Muslim U.S. forces in Saudi Arabia continued to undermine the Saudi rulers' legitimacy and inflamed anti-government Islamist militants, including bin Laden. Bin Laden's increasingly strident criticisms of the Saudi monarchy led the government to expel him to Sudan in 1991.

His immensely wealthy family publicly disowned him in 1994, shortly before the Saudi Arabian government revoked his citizenship. He attended his son's wedding in January 2001, but since 9/11 is believed only to have had contact with his mother on one occasion.

Not a prince of the house of Saud. Nor particularly well liked by them for quite a period before 2001.

[King of Atlantis]

Gawain,

It is hopless to try to reason with the terrorist. Terrorism is a crime that is punishable by death. But killing terrorist only slows the problem as more terrorist are being raised up to hate.

The answer is to put pressure on the governments that allow this kind hate to run free. If these governments dont take care of their trash then there is no hope.

[Don Corleone]

With all due respect, KOA, what do you think we've been doing for the past 4 years? I am not a believer in the death penalty, and I do not see killing terrorists as a matter of justice. It is a matter of survival. Much the same way your body kills a virus or is killed by it, we either win or we die.

[King of Atlantis]

Well i think what i said is exaxtly what we WERE doing, until we got side traked by a place called Iraq. How many highjackers were from Iraq? Have we caught Osma? Have we destroyed Al Qaeda?

My point, is many conservatives,cough*gawain*cough, are saying that many on the left want to reason with the terrorist. We dont want to reason with the terrorist, but we/I do want to reason with the potential terrorist, before the become completely mad like Al Qaeda.

[Tribesman]

You liberals would be toast just for thinking what you think.
So are you planning on converting to save being turned into toast aswell Gawain .
Go on become a true conservative , you know you want to really



. Seems to me that by playing up to them, all you do is shift their marketing message, not the marketing itself.
Playing up to who Don ?
Stop givng them a marketing message , and god knows that they have been able to get enough marketing messages to spew out as propoganda in the last few decades .
If the only message they could put out was convert to our form of barbarous Islam or die , how much support do you think they would get , how many people would flock to the banner ? Not a lot at all .
Instead they are getting drip fed the very stuff they need to grow .

[Don Corleone]

Actually, I agree with Gawain on this point, and I've been saying there is no reasoning with these people. I dont' mean that as an insult to you or your beliefs, but I don't think you understand what we're dealing with.

Osama bin Laden ordered a suicide bombing in Mecca during the Hajj when they allowed Bosnians in to take part. This would be the equivalent of the Knights of Columbus letting off a bomb in the Vatican because the Pope granted an audience to Coptic Christians. You are not Middle Eastern. You never will be. You don't have the right chromosonal structure. In their eyes, the best you can hope for is a life of obediant servitude to them, under Sharia. Is that what you're trying to negotiate?

I've said this until I'm blue in the face, but for you, KOA, because I like you, one more time. Al Queda had members long before we did anything to them. Al Queda's members are not poor. Al Queda's members come from oppressive and fairly representative governments. Al Queda is not looking to establish a stronghold. Complete and utter capitulation. That is what they seek. Nothing less will appease them. Even being a moderate but devout muslim is not good enough in their eyes...they've killed more of these poor souls than anyone else.

These people aren't doing these things just to scare us, and they're not doing them to score 'glory points'. These are opening salvos. We either stop them, or we let them grow.

[bmolsson]

I believe that Al Qaida is isolating itself with the increasing senceless killings. The secular youth in the Arab world will in the end win.....

[Tribesman]

We either stop them, or we let them grow.
Yes , but at the moment you are not stopping them are you ?
Instead you are feeding them with miracle grow .

[Kanamori]

And that enviroment of propogana and hate is radical Islam. How do you suggest we fix it?

It may be a crazy idea, but perhaps that is what Iraq is for, once it is stable and has its own democracy independent of our own...someone needs to fight them that is not a Western power, or a power established by the west.

[Don Corleone]

Playing up to who Don ?
Stop givng them a marketing message , and god knows that they have been able to get enough marketing messages to spew out as propoganda in the last few decades .
If the only message they could put out was convert to our form of barbarous Islam or die , how much support do you think they would get , how many people would flock to the banner ? Not a lot at all .
Instead they are getting drip fed the very stuff they need to grow .

Everything we do offends them. Our very existence offends them. Yes, they'll find it easier or harder to recruit based on whether we defend ourselves or we just let them do what they will, but even if we stood by, after attack, after attack, as we did for a full decade in the 90's, they had no problems finding recruits. There is no sating their hate for us. They wish us dead or enslaved. There is no middle ground, my friend.

[Don Corleone]

We either stop them, or we let them grow.
Yes , but at the moment you are not stopping them are you ?
Instead you are feeding them with miracle grow .

If the invasion of Iraq caused the terrorism that has happened since March, 2003, what caused all of what came before? Is it always our fault? If it is, is there any point to this discussion?