Al Qaeda

[Gawain of Orkeny]

So when you link anyone to Al Qaeda, you're linking them to 9/11, unless you explicitly state otherwise. Oh, not in a strict legal sense, but from a P.R. perspective, heck yeah. When the Vice President spends years linking Al Qaeda to Iraq, well, the effect is as intended.

Because the American people arent stupid. We dont think Saddam had anything to do with planning 911 but we do believe that he did indeed have ties to AQ and is therefore partialy responsible for 911 hence the poll results. It was never stated nor did any americans believe we invaded Iraq because of 911. Its you who are making false assumptions here. Read the congressional authorization of force in Iraq. Theres nothing about 911 in it.

[Proletariat]

In a practical, political sense, however, you are choosing to miss the point. Al Qaeda is known in the U.S. for 9/11. Full stop. When you say Al Qaeda, people think of planes flying into buildings. Maybe they think of OBL and the shoe bomber. Not a whole lot more.

What can you even do, Gawain?

"Sure, he didn't say what I'm claiming! But if you read between the lines he definately did not not say it!"



Please cite an example of this massive group of people who think we invaded Iraq solely because of 9/11.

(I thought they lied to us and it was WMDs. Apparently the BA didn't need to lie about WMDs, they already had 69% of the country bamboozled.)

[Lemur]

Please cite an example of this massive group of people who think we invaded Iraq solely because of 9/11.

Did I say "solely"? Did I say it was causal for the invasion? No, if you look at my post, I didn't.

Harris Poll is generally regarded as a non-partisan service, and they show a significant number of people still believe Saddam was behind 9/11.

More surprising perhaps are the large numbers (albeit not majorities) who believe the following claims not made by the president and which virtually no experts believe to be true:

* 47 percent believe that Saddam Hussein helped plan and support the hijackers who attacked the U.S. on September 11, 2001 (up six percentage points from November).
* 44 percent actually believe that several of the hijackers who attacked the U.S. on September 11 were Iraqis (up significantly from 37% in November).
* 36 percent believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. invaded (down slightly from 38% in November).

It does seem that some people are arriving at wildly untrue conclusions. Anyway, Proletariat, please feel free to point me to some evidence to the contrary.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You just shot yourself in the foot Lemurmania

who believe the following claims NOT made by the president

Its not his fault people believe things he DIDNT claim .

[Lemur]

No, my foot is doing just fine. If you've the patience, I would ask you to re-read what I was saying about linkage.

[EDIT]

Never mind, we're getting too far off-topic anyway. Now it's becoming all about Bush, when it's supposed to be about Al Qaeda. I really had no intention of derailing things so badly, mea culpa.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

No, my foot is doing just fine. If you've the patience, I would ask you to re-read what I was saying about linkage.

Hell I could link Washington to the war on terror. Everything in the world is somehow linked to every other thing in the world. That people make up their own dosent prove your point.

[Proletariat]

No, my foot is doing just fine. If you've the patience, I would ask you to re-read what I was saying about linkage.

Refering this to linkage requires a cognitive dissonance that only preconceived notions can produce.

[Lemur]

Gawain, Proletariat, if we want to take this any further, it should be in a separate thread. We're derailing the Al Qaeda discussion.

[Red Harvest]

Gawain,

It is hopless to try to reason with the terrorist. Terrorism is a crime that is punishable by death. But killing terrorist only slows the problem as more terrorist are being raised up to hate.

I've always been of the opinion that it would make more sense to target the crazy friggin' Imam's teaching the hate. They want to be a martyr, let's make it short and sweet for them and close their schools too... If the next generation is not indoctrinated into the hate, it will die out.

[King of Atlantis]

yeah, but if you kill the teachers, then the people being taught would be alot more likely to believe it. When someone dies for a cause it makes them a symbol and symbols are very hard to destroy.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

yeah, but if you kill the teachers, then the people being taught would be alot more likely to believe it. When someone dies for a cause it makes them a symbol and symbols are very hard to destroy.

I believe they have a word fot it.

[KukriKhan]

Gawain, Proletariat, if we want to take this any further, it should be in a separate thread. We're derailing the Al Qaeda discussion.

Agreed. This is usual Page 4 tendancy. Let's not get into "duelling sources" mode, or "quote - counterQuote - counterCounterQuote" mode.

Thread-starter was Proletariat's news-clipping about the Egyptian ambassador to Iraq being kidnapped (and now killed), and "I just don't get it".

Is there more constructive discussion on that topic, or is it time to start over fresh?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gawain, Proletariat, if we want to take this any further, it should be in a separate thread. We're derailing the Al Qaeda discussion.

Thats pretty funny considering were just answering your posts.

Agreed. This is usual Page 4 tendancy. Let's not get into "duelling sources" mode, or "quote - counterQuote - counterCounterQuote" mode.

Were dissgussing AQs relationship to Iraq and the war on terror so its still on topic.Its only Lems assertions that are drifting us off courrse here. He had to get some Bush bashing in I guess.

[King of Atlantis]

Thats pretty funny considering were just answering your posts.

That doesnt mean there's anything wrong with trying to stop it.

[Tribesman]

Thread-starter was Proletariat's news-clipping about the Egyptian ambassador to Iraq being kidnapped (and now killed), and "I just don't get it".
Back to the thread starter .
You may not get it , but it worked , the Egyptians , plus two other countries whose diplomats have been attacked , are now withdrawing their diplomats from Iraq .
Al-Qaida once again has shown that the Iraqi Government and the coilition forces cannot even provide basic security to high level figures .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That doesnt mean there's anything wrong with trying to stop it.

We showed that Lemur was wrong and it was pretty much over. He was merely taking the sneaky way out. Its like punching someone in the nose and then saying hey lets not fight after your getting your butt kicked.

[Tribesman]

Its like punching someone in the nose and then saying hey lets not fight after your getting your butt kicked.
Or like saying "bring it on" on then complaining because they are bringing it on and you cannot be bothered to put enough troops on the ground to handle it .
So much for the Pentagons 1:4:2:1 strategy , they cannot even manage 1:1:1:1 .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Or like saying "bring it on" on then complaining because they are bringing it on and you cannot be bothered to put enough troops on the ground to handle it .

What has this to do with anything? It seems you also just cant resist bashing either Bush or the US any chance you get.

[King of Atlantis]

We showed that Lemur was wrong and it was pretty much over. He was merely taking the sneaky way out. Its like punching someone in the nose and then saying hey lets not fight after your getting your butt kicked.

Though your explanation is a good one , it isnt the only reason Lemur might have had. I know i have pulled out of a debate here about religion as I simply got tired of the debate.

[Proletariat]

Though your explanation is a good one , it isnt the only reason Lemur might have had. I know i have pulled out of a debate here about religion as I simply got tired of the debate.

I always pull out after I try to explain something more than three or four times. After that, I usually figure there's an implicit 'agree to disagree' when you and the person you're speaking to just keep saying the same thing to each other over and over. (Re: Ser Clegane and me in the War on Terror thread)

I only went OT with Lemur because nothing is more tendentious and ridiculous to base an argument off than a political poll. They're always geared towards predetermined results and are the height of intellectual dishonesty.

And hey, I started this damned thread.

[King of Atlantis]

I only went OT with Lemur because nothing is more tendentious and ridiculous to base an argument off than a political poll. They're always geared towards predetermined results and are the height of intellectual dishonesty.

Yeah, ive heard many times that numbers can be manipulated anyway you wish.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Yeah, ive heard many times that numbers can be manipulated anyway you wish.

Not only that but the questions can be manipulated to get the answer to back any position you like. I know I do it for a living.

[Proletariat]

Not only that but the questions can be manipulated to get the answer to back any position you like. I know I do it for a living.

That was more what I meant.

[King of Atlantis]

That was more what I meant.

Yeah i figured that, but the results can actually be manipulated too.

[Tribesman]

What has this to do with anything?
Since the topic is Al-Qaidas operations in Iraq , absolutelty everything Gawain .
If you want to set it up so that you can fight them over there so that you don't have to fight them over here then make sure you can do it , if you cannot be arsed to do it properly then don't even bother .
Anyone with half a brain could have seen that Iraq wouldn't fit in to the 1:4:2:1 plan especially as there was no hope that Afghanistan would fit the plan .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Isnt it your position that Iraq has nothing to do with AQ? I think were doing a pretty good job of it. They havent been able to stop the new government from forming and it seems the Iraqis have had enough of them. Its not that we need more men . Only the Iraqis themselves can solve this problem in the end.

[Tribesman]

Isnt it your position that Iraq has nothing to do with AQ?
No my position is that it had nothing to do with them before the invasion , now they are there in small but increasing numbers and causing chaos.

I think were doing a pretty good job of it.
Well in thay case Gawain I would hate to see it if you thought they were doing a bad job .

They havent been able to stop the new government from forming
But they and others do seem to have a nasty little habit of killing off the new government when they leave the green zone , you cannot run a country from inside a fortress .

it seems the Iraqis have had enough of them.
Yes the Average Iraqi has no more time for Al-Qaida than the average human has anywhere on the planet .

Its not that we need more men .
What planet are you on ? If you cannot stop politicians , policemen , soldiers , civilians and community leaders from being executed in broad daylight on the city streets then you need more men on the streets .

Only the Iraqis themselves can solve this problem in the end.
What the hell are you doing there then ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Isnt it your position that Iraq has nothing to do with AQ?
No my position is that it had nothing to do with them before the invasion , now they are there in small but increasing numbers and causing chaos.

So there wasnt any AQ in Iraq until we invaded there. They were everywhere else in the world including Florida but Iraq had none. There were no AQ hiding there nor any bases or training going on there.

I think were doing a pretty good job of it.
Well in thay case Gawain I would hate to see it if you thought they were doing a bad job .

Yu are truly the king of rehtorical replies but short on context.

They havent been able to stop the new government from forming
But they and others do seem to have a nasty little habit of killing off the new government when they leave the green zone , you cannot run a country from inside a fortress .

Their losing face it.

Its not that we need more men .
What planet are you on ? If you cannot stop politicians , policemen , soldiers , civilians and community leaders from being executed in broad daylight on the city streets then you need more men on the streets .

I could ask the same of you. Is this the crap they feed you on the BBC?

Only the Iraqis themselves can solve this problem in the end.
What the hell are you doing there then ?

Were training them to defend themselves the same thing the rest of the free world should be doing because its the right thing to do for us all.

[Don Corleone]

Its like punching someone in the nose and then saying hey lets not fight after your getting your butt kicked.
Or like saying "bring it on" on then complaining because they are bringing it on and you cannot be bothered to put enough troops on the ground to handle it .
So much for the Pentagons 1:4:2:1 strategy , they cannot even manage 1:1:1:1 .

God, Tribesman, if I didnt' know better, I'd say you sound gleeful. Must be the wine I've had talking.

Look, I've said this many times, in many threads. You're clearly not going to answer me. But, cause I'm a fair guy, I'll say it one last time, in shorthand (cause yes, I agree with you, I'm a longwinded bore) we gave the terrorists 5 shots in a row, didn't do anything to them. They stepped it up each time. Why?

[Tribesman]

we gave the terrorists 5 shots in a row, didn't do anything to them. They stepped it up each time. Why?
Well for starters Don , they did do something , just not very effectively . They stepped it up each time because the approach was completely ineffective .
Now after another newer bigger but still ineffective methods have been tried they are still stepping it up . Why ?

Because half-arsed badly planned attempts without clear objectives and the resources to implement those objectives do not work , they just make the situation worse .

Gawain Their losing face it.
The only losers so far are the Iraqi people .

Were training them to defend themselves the same thing the rest of the free world should be doing
Oh silly me , I am sorry Gawain , I didn't realise that Iraq never had an army or police force before you went there to give them one .

Is this the crap they feed you on the BBC?
Ask a policeman or military commander , even better still ask a politician . Thay all will tell you the first thing you need to do in order to be able to stop something happening is to have someone there to stop it .
FFS they were telling the world how great it was that they were finally able to put 23 check points on the main entrances to the Capital City instead of the previous 8 . But then they have had to take away those manning those points so they can patrol the border . Now they are going to take those men away from the border to go back to Fallujah to deal with that all over again .