The War on Terror

[Don Corleone]

Navaros is posting claims in a different thread that the UK is getting it's just desserts. Now, as I found it entirely inappropriate to engage him there, I figured I'd start another thread to answer him.

Here was his post:

i do not mean to come across as being uncompassionate. it sucks if innocent people die

but look at this thread. 4 pages already

because most of you are shocked. and spooked. exactly how Al Qaida wants you to feel. you are doing them a service by being freaked-out over this. the hysteria on these boards and everywhere else too, makes them feel overjoyed. if you hate them so much, why would you want them to feel that way?

starting a war - as Bush and Blair did - and then expecting that "your side" will not have any major casualities, is unrealistic. everyone knew the type of tactics that Al Qaida uses. by provoking them, it was bound to encourage more of such tactics.

Navaros, if you really believe the Terror War started in October, 2001 , you're crazier than I thought you were.

Let's do a quick running tally:

1993: Al Queda bombs the WTC. They fail to knock it down, causing a loss of face.

1996: Al Queda blows up the Khobar towers in Saudi Arabia. The local authorities, afraid of a backlash, refuse to cooperate in the investegation.

1998: Al Queda blows up the US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Clinton responds months later by launching cruise missles at an abandoned training facility in Afghanistan and an aspirin factory in Sudan.

2000: AlQueda blows up the USS Cole. Again, nothign is done.

Sep 2001: Al Queda blows up the WTC (this time, succesfully) and the Pentagon.

Oct 2001: US & UK begin operation to drive Taliban & Al Queda out of Afghanistan and return majority rule.

And from all of that, you get that we started all of this and we're getting what we deserve? If you truly hate the West and Western people 1/10 as much your screeds would imply, why the %!$ are you here!? Act like you got a pair and go move to one of these fundamentalist paradises. Tell them about how all who don't follow Christ's teachings deserve death, and let's just see how long your sorry ass lasts. Cause honestly, speaking as a Christian, we don't need your kind. It's your lot that drives the unbelievers away, because they fear Christ and his followers due to your insane ranting.

[JAG]

I think Nav does have a point. It is our actions after 9/11 and way before then which has helped create more problems and strengthened AQ, their standing in the Middle East and their effective strength.

We need to seriously look at how we confront these organisations, everyone agrees they need to be rid of, but surely the way we are acting is NOT working, as shown today and as shown in Iraq.

[Don Corleone]

Bullshit. We hadn't done anything on September 10th. Their message is simple. Submit or die.

[Templar Knight]

But how to we get rid of them? Intellegence will only prevent such attacks, we need to pull them out by the roots.

[JAG]

Rubbish - need I remind you that the US funded and helped set up AQ? It is simply naive to believe we have not helped cause the hate and filth the terrorist organisations spout out. Some of our actions in the west have helped cause the problems both before the first terrorist attacks and after.

We get rid of these groups by specific targeted attacks, using intelligence better and getting rid of the base support the terrorists thrive on and live off.

[PanzerJaeger]

I cant wait to hear how these recent bombings and the ones in Madrid and New York are everyone's fault but the bombers.

Im sure Bush and America will top of the list, but dont be surprised to see Blair and Britain, Italy, Denmark, the "Western World", Israel, the Jews in general, the evil corporations, neocons, and possibly even SUV drivers in the mix.

It seems to be a knee-jerk reaction in some circles to ask "What have we done to cause these people to bomb us?" Thats not the right mentality. Rational discussion, negotiation, appeasement, and the like will not work in this case.

[PanzerJaeger]

Rubbish - need I remind you that the US funded and helped set up AQ?

How does helping them get rid of a soviet occupation give them justification to attack us? That logic doesnt add up. America didnt do anything but help them in a righteous cause.. there is clear moral superiority in this case.

[Franconicus]

I think Nav does have a point. It is our actions after 9/11 and way before then which has helped create more problems and strengthened AQ, their standing in the Middle East and their effective strength.

We need to seriously look at how we confront these organisations, everyone agrees they need to be rid of, but surely the way we are acting is NOT working, as shown today and as shown in Iraq.

There is no justification for this terror act. Assuming that AQ is resonsible: Then the question is not if we did something wrong before 9/11 or did something wrong after 9/11. The question is what we are going to do now and how we can prevent any mistakes now.
It seems to be obvious that we have to increase the efforts and maybe change the strategy. After all I hope the free world will come closer again.
But now is not the time to discuss this, not even in a seperate threat. The deads are retrieved and we should rest in mourning. I suggest to discuss the political points of view tomorrow. AQ will still be there.

[Don Corleone]

Rubbish - need I remind you that the US funded and helped set up AQ? It is simply naive to believe we have not helped cause the hate and filth the terrorist organisations spout out. Some of our actions in the west have helped cause the problems both before the first terrorist attacks and after.

We get rid of these groups by specific targeted attacks, using intelligence better and getting rid of the base support the terrorists thrive on and live off.

I get so tired of these arguments. The US gave weapons to rebel groups in Afghanistan to help take on an invading Soviet force. Yes. Shoot us.

The reason Al Queda hates the US and the UK is because we humiliated Hussein in the first Gulf War. AND... perish the thought, Westerners were allowed into the Saudi Kingdom. It doesn't matter that we were there to protect the Kingdom from Hussein invading, or that we freed another group of Arabs that were enslaved by Hussein.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Al Queda views you as a slave. No more. All the reasoning and talking and hand wringing will only encourage them.

[JAG]

Sigh - and expect people like PJ to be stating repeatedly 'kill them all!!!!! Invade all the Middle East!!!!! Israel bomb them!!!!!!!!'

Sigh.

That has proven to not work and help anyone, we need rational disussions about the situation not simply pointing fingers at the 'enemy' and trying to 'destroy' them.

We are not blameless, of course there is huge responsibility for the attacks, with AQ itself, no one is denying that - no one denied it with 9/11 and Madrid - however we need to take on board some of our faults as well. By not taking into account the problems we have caused we fuel the situation further.

[JAG]

Don - these knee jerk reactions is exactly what AQ wants and exactly what causes the problems to escilate.

We have helped cause the problem, we have helped make the problem worse, our tactics we use at the moment CLEARLY do NOT work. Tell those killed today that our tactics of crash and burn and invasion work. We need a rational discussion about all the issues and new tactics of specific targeted attack not invasion of whole bloody countries and inflaming the situation.

No one denies that AQ is a horrible organisation - I agree with you - but we cannot simply think more of the same by us will solve the situation it will not.

[Don Corleone]

I mean, they let a bomb off in Mecca, THEIR HOLY CITY!!! because white muslims, Bosnians, were allowed to make the Hajj!!! Do you really think with a mindset like that, you're going to be able to apologize, agree that the West is responsible, and then they'll stop?

Criminy Jag, you're not stupid. I'm not saying that even a majority of the Islamic world feels this way. But Al Queda sure as shit does. An Islamic world, with them at the top and all other races enslaved to them. Nothing else will satisfy them.

[CBR]

It seems to be a knee-jerk reaction in some circles to ask "What have we done to cause these people to bomb us?" Thats not the right mentality. Rational discussion, negotiation, appeasement, and the like will not work in this case.

Since this is a Total War site I find this quote fitting as an answer:

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

Sun-Tzu

I really do prefer rational discussion before letting the bombs fly...


CBR

[Ser Clegane]

But now is not the time to discuss this, not even in a seperate threat. The deads are retrieved and we should rest in mourning. I suggest to discuss the political points of view tomorrow. AQ will still be there.

Quite right - but I guess past experience has unfortunately shown that this wishful thinking

I guess we will have to settle for at least keeping this kind of discussion out of one thread (and I really appreciate that most people at least try to keep Tmeplar's thread "clean").

@all
If you really cannot help starting this discussion already at this point - I at least excpect you to discuss in a civilised way. If this is not possible (and due to the situation my hopes are not too high) - this thread will be closed.

[PanzerJaeger]

You didnt address your earlier comments.

Its common doublespeak in leftist cirlces that America is somehow at fault because it "funded AQ in Afghanistan against the soviets".

I want to know what line of reasoning justifies AQ attacking us because we helped them get rid of the soviets.

[BDC]

Sigh - and expect people like PJ to be stating repeatedly 'kill them all!!!!! Invade all the Middle East!!!!! Israel bomb them!!!!!!!!'

Sigh.

That has proven to not work and help anyone, we need rational disussions about the situation not simply pointing fingers at the 'enemy' and trying to 'destroy' them.

We are not blameless, of course there is huge responsibility for the attacks, with AQ itself, no one is denying that - no one denied it with 9/11 and Madrid - however we need to take on board some of our faults as well. By not taking into account the problems we have caused we fuel the situation further.

I don't think we should invade or bomb people.

We blackmail the governments who shelter and support these people into giving them up or we make sure life gets very uncomfortable for these governments.

After all, it's not the people doing this. It's their leadership and a vicious minority.

[zelda12]

Kill, Osama Bin Laden. Its that simple, infiltrate AQ and kill every single major leader. Trace their accounts and cut of their money, find the government officials that support them in countries and have them assasinated using untraceable methods. Destroy the support and leadership mechanisms of the organisation.

Then pour money into the ME and rebuild that areas economy, rich and content men do not want Jihads. Poor unemployed disaffected men with no hope do.

[JAG]

PJ - this is where you misread or actively misquite on purpose all those who do not simply think AQ is the sole cause to the problems. We do not avoid the fact that AQ are hugely responsible for the attacks, clearly they are as they committed them! But we simply state that AQ is not the only cause, we need to look at ourselves as well.

That included the US looking at past and present actions. You seemingly will not and I think you should take heed of CBR's reply.

[Ja'chyra]

First of all

Navaros is posting claims in a different thread that the UK is getting it's just desserts

No he bloody didn't, he said:

starting a war - as Bush and Blair did - and then expecting that "your side" will not have any major casualities, is unrealistic. everyone knew the type of tactics that Al Qaida uses. by provoking them, it was bound to encourage more of such tactics.

Which says that if you go to war with someone you must know that they are going to fight back, totally different. So if you're going to twist someone words try and do a better job of it.

As for who started the war, while it sure as hell didn't start on september 11th, it doesn't matter anymore, the whole "He started it" argument is for the schoolyard not the international community. That being said if you think it all started becauase someone woke up and decided to bomb the WTC you're being just a bit naive.

America didnt do anything but help them in a righteous cause.. there is clear moral superiority in this case.

Yeah? Tell it to the dead, sorry, that might be a bit harsh but not much.

This whole thread is disgusting, couldn't this at least wait til tomorrow?

[JAG]

I don't think we should invade or bomb people.

We blackmail the governments who shelter and support these people into giving them up or we make sure life gets very uncomfortable for these governments.

After all, it's not the people doing this. It's their leadership and a vicious minority.

I agree that approach would be far better than the current one. The current approach is 'do as we say or we will invade you'. That isn't how you solve a situation. You put pressure on the heads of governments in the critical countries, use diplomacy, even use targeted attacks if very neccesary.

We do not need to give the terrorist organisations more ammo for recruitement by acting heavy handedly like we have thus far.

[PanzerJaeger]

I really do prefer rational discussion before letting the bombs fly...

I was not suggesting we do not get information on AQ.

I was refering to the, as its called here, "Blaim America First Crowd". I suppose in Europe, "America" could be replaced with "West".

There is this idea that this is all America's fault. (See: Ward Churchill) Some people seem to think that we should try and end arab poverty and all the other injustices in the world, and that will clear America's tarnished image.

I am saying that America, or the Western World, are not guilty of anything but trying to protect muslims (bosnia, kuwait, saudi arabia).

People need to understand, as Don was saying, there is no level of appeasement that will work here except complete subserviance to whatever the terrorists demand. Trying to have a rational discussion about the demands of irrational people is difficult, and not the answer to terrorism.

[JAG]

Trying to have a rational discussion about the demands of irrational people is difficult, and not the answer to terrorism.

That is exactly the kind of thought pattern, as well as your 'Europe hates America and is blaming us!!!!' approach, which leads to the situation getting worse and more attacks like this happening.

The stupidity of your views in the wake of a third major terrorist attack is dumbfounding, I cannot rationale it, simply amazing.

[Don Corleone]

First of all



No he bloody didn't, he said:



Which says that if you go to war with someone you must know that they are going to fight back, totally different. So if you're going to twist someone words try and do a better job of it.

As for who started the war, while it sure as hell didn't start on september 11th, it doesn't matter anymore, the whole "He started it" argument is for the schoolyard not the international community. That being said if you think it all started becauase someone woke up and decided to bomb the WTC you're being just a bit naive.

I didn't actually post Navaros' first post in that thread, which probably shed a little more light on why I felt a need to respond:

Bush and Blair wanted to pick a fight with Al Qaida it should come as no surprise that Al Qaida will on occasion fight back

We didn't pick a fight with them, quite the opposite, and blowing up a bunch of civilians on a train isn't fighting back. I don't know your views on the matter, but a self-proclaimed Christian like Navaros should know better than to say things like that, especially in the thread dedicated to people offering their condolences.

Of course I don't think it all started because somebody woke up and bombed the WTC. Look, if you want to rely onthe kindness and mercy of Al Queda, be my guest. But I am not going to sit back and let people claim that attacks like what happened in London this morning are a simple matter of a group defending itself. Navaros did, and I answered him. I've said all I have to say on the matter.

[PanzerJaeger]

The stupidity of your views in the wake of a third major terrorist attack is dumbfounding, I cannot rationale it, simply amazing.

And

And your We're the bad guys!!!!! mentality is equally idiotic. Your country got attacked today and youre still trying figure out the best way to appease the terrorists..

There is understanding your enemy and then there is sympathizing with him.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That is exactly the kind of thought pattern, as well as your 'Europe hates America and is blaming us!!!!' approach, which leads to the situation getting worse and more attacks like this happening.

As Ive said many times Jag you have it backwards. Its your kind of thought patterns that leads to the situation getting worse and more attacks like this happening.

The stupidity of your views in the wake of a third major terrorist attack is dumbfounding, I cannot rationale it, simply amazing.

Now this looks like a personal attack to me. I could say the same of your views. But I wouldnt call yours stupid , just misguided. Calling someones views stupid is calling the person stupid. You cant seperate ones views from their brain process.

[JAG]

Who the hell said I was sympathising with them? My family members could quite easily have been killed today, of course I am not sympathising with them, I am trying to understand the causes for the attacks which do involve us in the west - the west as in the US AND Europe. You seemingly want to think we are blameless and it is the 'evil arabs' wanting to kill us all which is the sole reason, that is idiotic, but you're too far gone to understand that.

[JAG]

As Ive said many times Jag you have it backwards. Its your kind of thought patterns that leads to the situation getting worse and more attacks like this happening.

Ah because the appoach thus far really has worked. How many is it dead since 9/11 due to our ineffectual responses? Great work!! Keep the killing coming!

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Ah because the appoach thus far really has worked. How many is it dead since 9/11 due to our ineffectual responses? Great work!! Keep the killing coming!

You seem to miss one fact. WERE AT WAR PEOPLE DIE. If we did as you suggest theres a good chance even more people would be dead. You cant reason with these people. Jag you would be one of those guys in war of the worlds who goes to make peace with the aliens and is turned to dust.

[PanzerJaeger]

What did we do to them Jag to justify this? No, in fact, just tell me what we did to them to cause them to feel their attacks are justified.

[Sjakihata]

I agree with JAG - that we seriously need to analyse our methology in dealing with these matters.

Questions need to be answered - the truth often holds more than one face.

Why do they attack the western world, especially the USA?

You say they started the fight, well, why did they start it?

I do not believe, opposite to PJ, that the world black and white - I believe in RBG.

For example, as Bush declared after the 9/11 attack, he said that we ( the western world) should launch a crusade against taliban. That is not smart wording, because, a crusade is a very sensitive thing to say, and a great tool for the terrorists.