A major idea for the Mod.

[Ignoramus]

Now I know that I am going to meet heavy opposition for this idea, but here it is.

Limit the campaign map to just the northern coast of Africa up to Tunisia, where Carthage is. Cut out Libya, Egypt, Palestine, Babylon, Armenia etc. Only have Anatolia/Asia Minor/mordern Turkey. and just the territory around the Black Sea. This frees up two more faction slots: Mamlukes and Golden Horde are out.

New factions: Confederation of the Swiss, and Portugal.

Cultures:

German Culture:

Saxony
Bavaria
Hapsburgs
Imperial Diet

Romance/Renaissance Culture:

France
Castile
Portugal
Naples
Milan
Venice

Highland Culture:

Scotland.

Reformation Culture:

England
Burgundy
Swiss Confederation
Kalmar Union

East European Culture:

Russia
Hungary
Poland.

Islamic Culture:

Ottomans
Moors

This way we can inject many more provinces into Europe and focus all the major cities. We just need the scale of the map to be much larger. The Ottomans start in southern Anatolia. I know that people won't like Egypt, Palestine, and Libya being excluded, but it will make the Mod more focused on Europe, while still having the Ottomans.

What are your opinions?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I don't really like the idea...

Can't we place the new provinces in Europe anyway? We did not expand the map that much and RTR added something like twice as many provinces in existing regions of the RTW map and added new territory...

[Boon]

yes and the EB world map is frankly huge, also check out mundus magnus at TWC - just massive.

surely it should be possible to put these provinces in without cutting any out?

[Narayanese]

I don't like it either.
Sure, egypt doesn't seem important, but removing the golden horde would leave a big hole in the east (after all their western border is far west of moscow). Also why swiss? they've no special units (since they're all merc), not much population, not really any impact on the rest of the world. And I can't see how scotland would be a separate culture, it's just a slightly more gaelic version of england with a different ruler, just look how unrebellious they and the english were to eachother after the unification. We can have many provinces in europe anyway (germany and north italy are going to need a lot of provinces).
I think the map borers should be sahara, the atlantic ocean, the pole sea, and far enough east the include all the land of muscovy at the start date but no further than that.

[Janissary Karamurat]

PLEASE...

...dont give up, neither North Africa nor Egypt or the Mongols. As an addicted player of MTW years ago im waiting for this mod since I saw your site the very first time.

Without Egypt how can the Ottomans expand through North Africa (which i did as it was also historically correct ). Besides, in 16th/17th century they had expanded to the largest provincial owning.

You said it by yourself: The focus will move to center Europe, but this would also mean a loss of complexity on the map. Every faction will be forced to move on to central Europe. No more different stories of conquering or failing will be happening when there is only one way to expand (into center Europe!)?

For me,I loved to play as the Turks (ok, this is due to my origins from there ).
But when Egypt is missing the whole "Arabia Campaign" of the Ottomans (and also others?) will be vanished. Its like cutting of whole Scandinavia off and playing as Danish (just for e.g.); where to go? ---->center europe (=one way expansion)

You want to take out the mongols and egypt, but keep Milan and swiss? How many provinces will they own? 1 or 2, max. 3 (dont know this kalmar union.)?
Getting conquered in few turns they wouldnt be the hell of an enemy, or (dont want to offend anyone.)?

You are the developer, so you make the decisions. This is just an oppinion...(but please... )

[Saranalos]

I really don't think this is a very good idea... I think we should keep what factions we have already, we can put as many provinces into europe as we need, (there's a very high province limit) and we shouldn't just concentrate on the western part of europe. And Portugal and the Swiss aren't really needed, whereas the Mamalukes and Golden Horde are quite important.

[caesar44]

in one hand the idea of a smaller map is good because at this time frame (16 to 17 cen') most of europe was divided to a small kingdoms who fought against each other for a very small territories , and then you add north africa and eastern russia with only 2 factions and huge empty territories - thats a problem

on the other hand , you have to balance the map so russia wont automatically attack its western border or the ottomans to attack eastern europe

so the conclusions is - big map = more factions or more provinces
smaller map = less factions or less provinces

btw , if the ottomans had no rivals in north africa and the mid east the moder' should manage to create a frequent rebellions in its territories so the smaller european kingdoms can have their chance

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I don't think the Ottomans experienced widespread rebellion until much later, 19th-20th centuries. So I think the power of the Ottoman Empire is realistic and should be maintained.

[Ignoramus]

But at the start of this Mod, 1402, the Ottomans were really only confined to Asia Minor/Anatolia, so are we going to have all of Mesopotamia rebel? As well as Armenia? This would be ahistoical.

[Janissary Karamurat]

In 1402, the Ottomans were already fighting the Byzantines for almost 100 years
(dont think that there was really a peacement contract ever between these two
factions).

In that era the Turks conquered the byzantine provinces first, they didnt control
whole asia minor at this time. There were still many of the so called "beyliks" in asia minor (which were nearly similar to the counties in england of 11th/12th or the different german principilities after the 30-year-war in 17th century.).

Just want to make clear that the Ottomans expanded into the Tracian/Balkan provinces before they got over to claim the rest of asia minor. In 1402, they owned still little of asia minor/anatolia but many of the former byzantine provinces like serbia,bulgaria (dont know about greece i admit ). Its capitol at this time was already adrianople (250 km west of constantinople!) i think, not burssa any more.

Getting started with this parameters in 1402 as Turks, u could easily conquer rest of asia minor (and constantinople too, or???) and becoming the strongest power in game quite soon.

In RTW (and even RTR) its easy to conquer the rest once u are big enough that u dont have to fear the enemy. Without the danger of mamelucks who will be left in there to stand against the Turks?

Like Ignoramus said, does it make sense to put most of anatolia, the kaukasian and mesopotamian provinces as rebel factions?

[Yggdrasill]

In 1402, the Ottomans were already fighting the Byzantines for almost 100 years
(dont think that there was really a peacement contract ever between these two
factions).

In that era the Turks conquered the byzantine provinces first, they didnt control
whole asia minor at this time. There were still many of the so called "beyliks" in asia minor (which were nearly similar to the counties in england of 11th/12th or the different german principilities after the 30-year-war in 17th century.).

Just want to make clear that the Ottomans expanded into the Tracian/Balkan provinces before they got over to claim the rest of asia minor. In 1402, they owned still little of asia minor/anatolia but many of the former byzantine provinces like serbia,bulgaria (dont know about greece i admit ). Its capitol at this time was already adrianople (250 km west of constantinople!) i think, not burssa any more.

Getting started with this parameters in 1402 as Turks, u could easily conquer rest of asia minor (and constantinople too, or???) and becoming the strongest power in game quite soon.

In RTW (and even RTR) its easy to conquer the rest once u are big enough that u dont have to fear the enemy. Without the danger of mamelucks who will be left in there to stand against the Turks?

Like Ignoramus said, does it make sense to put most of anatolia, the kaukasian and mesopotamian provinces as rebel factions?

Apart from the MAmluks there are only two major factions present in the Middle East worth modelling (others are too small). Those are the Qara and
Aq Qoyunlu Turcoman tribal federation and the Timur Lenk's state. Anatolian beyliks are to small to justify a faction slot, even if there were no restrictions on the number of factions. Slave is the way to go for them.

[Ignoramus]

Yes, but no opposition to Ottomans? We don't want this faction to be a walkover!

[Janissary Karamurat]

Thats what i meant in my posting before. There were "too many" of these beyliks, not possible to implement them as factions. I didnt write it clear enough,
but without mameluks (or armenian?) the Turks would be too overpowered!!!

Playing as them would be an easy rush-over through the map since there are no(!) enemies threatening from another side (like the mamelucks did in MTW).

[Narayanese]

Thats what i meant in my posting before. There were "too many" of these beyliks, not possible to implement them as factions. I didnt write it clear enough,
but without mameluks (or armenian?) the Turks would be too overpowered!!!

Playing as them would be an easy rush-over through the map since there are no(!) enemies threatening from another side (like the mamelucks did in MTW).

Nah, if the rebels aren't too passive they'll send some turcoman horsearchers into anatolian ottoman turkey, and then the turks will find they'll need to some more units to guard their eastern cities then just a little spear militia garrison (they'd need foot archers or fast cavalry and those are expensive).

[Ignoramus]

I think that if we made the map changes as I suggested, cutting out Libya, Egypt, Palestine, and the rest of the Middle ease except for Asia Minor, and injecting the Swiss and Portuguese into the frame, would be much better for gameplay. The Turks would have to keep pounding against Hungary and the Hapsburgs, instead of smashing the Rebels, then making a pile and creating massive Janissary Armies.

[Saranalos]

No, Yggdrasill had some information on the expansion pack, and it seems that rebels will be completely different than they are now, much harder in other words.

[Ignoramus]

Well, then I have this suggestion: Scrap the Golden Horde for the Persians. Will post a poll fro people to decide.


Imperial Diet Culture:
Saxony
Bavaria
Hapsburgs
Palentinate(sp?)

Italian Culture:
Venice
Milan
Naples

Islamic Culture:
Ottomans
Mamleuks
Persian Principalities
Moors

Orthodox Culture:
Russian Principalities

Eastern European Culture:
Poland
Hungary

Western European Culture:
England
Scotland
France
Castile
Burgundy
Kalmar Union

This solves the "Ottoman expansion is too easy" problem. The Golden Horde was collapsing at this period, so no problem about removing them. We might be able to expand the Map a bit more east into Western Persia.

[Yggdrasill]

If we get rid of the Golden Horde we lose the Mongols as a distinct faction. And what then? How are we to create the Timur Lenk's empire? The thing that you forgot is that in 1402 when the mod starts, there was no Persia. Instead all of the territory east of Asia Minor (east of Ottomans) was ruled by two major players – the Mamluks to the south, and Timur to the east. Timur and his army were Mongols. Thus, we need the Golden horde not only as a faction but also to have rebels belonging to their distinctive unit set (Mongolian), to simulate Timur and his armies. Basically, we should have few provinces to the east of the Ottomans, each with a huge, two full stacks, of high quality units. Timur died in 1405, so it’s not a problem that his empire is not a faction. After his death, his descendants continued to rule extensive territory but only to the east of our map (so they effectively disappear of our ‘radar’). After that, Mesopotamia was ruled, throughout the 15th century by Turcoman tribal confederations (ie Ottoman culture, can be made as rebels easily). They existed until the Ottomans crushed them sometime in early 16th century. After that the Ottoman rule streched all the way to todays Iran, and only east of that sometime in the 16th century Persia emerged. So where and when exactly would you put the Persians? the idea is not fleshed out completely

If it actually comes to (again?!) shuffling factions, it makes far more sense to have either Armenia or Georgia (very small true but interesting and closer to where the action is), Timur Lenk, or , the best solution of all, some of the Turcoman ruled principalities like the Anatolian beyliks (too small and already vassals of the Ottoman sultan for the most part) or the Aq Qoyunlu tribal confederation. But the Golden horde is much too important.

See you’re robbing Peter to pay Paul. Think on this. Because you want to make it tougher for the Ottomans to expand, you are willing to get rid of the GH. Now you’ve just made Poland’s borders a lot more secure then they were. And since we already decided against it’s most dangerous northern neighbour (the Teutonic order), what are they going to face? Rebels? Entire Poland-Lithuania will be surrounded by rebel factions, and it will be painfully easy for them to swallow them up and double their size in 20 turns. Thus we’ve achieved nothing, only created another superpower, only this time it doesn’t even correlate to actual events in history. If Ottomans become a superpower, it will at least be true to history, since they did it in real life. In fact, if it hadn’t been for Timur Lenk and the crushing defeat at Ankara in 1402, the whole process would have been much faster.
And what about the Russians? Their entire history up to early 17th century has been a vicious struggle against the Mongols. Their armies and battle tactics revolved around fighting horse archer armies. The entire northeast section of the map, from the Caucasus to the Black sea now falls to just two factions, Poland and Muscovy (and Muscovy was fairly small at that time, Novgorod was much bigger).

[Narayanese]

Frankfurt was the german capital, and so frankfurt must be the senates faction, since the choice of senate capital is so important in RTW (it was a freie Reichstadt - imperial free city - from 1372).

It wouldn't be good to have timus horde as a faction, he dies soon, and much of his army is marching toward china, his capital is samarkand, and that's a bit far to extend the map. There are no other states that one might considered as persian.

If we'd like an eastern faction, switch moors for white sheep (aqqoyunlu). As I understand it, the moors as they are now are a mottle collection of weak north african kingdoms. Not that I'm a fan of horsearchers, but if I play as white shepp fed and expand it'll feel acceptably historical, which any playing of moors will fail to do. The mongol kingdoms in mesopotamia fought eachother and were then conquered.
The Golden Horde is too big and important to remove.

Had a better look at the size of mamluk lands, oh they're rather big.

[caesar44]

again the map is unbalanced , so what about the TARTARS ? they fought for centuries against the russian in the north and the islamis kingdoms in the south !

[Narayanese]

again the map is unbalanced , so what about the TARTARS ? they fought for centuries against the russian in the north and the islamis kingdoms in the south !

It's they who are the golden horde...
And the mod starts in 1402 fyi

[Janissary Karamurat]

ok, this is meant to be 2 posts in 1:

1)In MTW there were quite few but large provinces on the eastern map while in centre europe there were more but smaller ones. I think it worked fine there, why dont adapt it? A lesser amount of provinces for a lesser amount of factions.
While playing Turks in MTW i had the advantage that i didnt get surrounded by enemy factions like it happened playing HRE or French. I just had to keep some choking points secured and could expand then to where i wanted (constantinople in the west, georgia (kaukasia) in the north, only had to struggle with the egypts.)

So u could decrease the number of provinces in the eastern map? This could maybe prevent any faction there to get too strong since there cant be implemented all of the historical factions ( factions limit...).


2) Hmmm, Golden Horde or Persians? When Timur Lenk died in 1405 what happened with his empire? Did the Persians became independent again then? If so i prefer the persians. The GH had its best days before 1402. The Persians would have the possibility of marching north through Kaukasia if its attractive enough for the AI and threaten Russians principalities (Even today their borders are not far away from there.).

[Ignoramus]

But the Golden Horde disintergrates soon anyway, and Russia would have the Kalmar Union as well as Poland to deal with. It is like the Scythians in RTW, they have apart from a pathectically weak Parthian Campus Sakae, all Rebels.

[Saranalos]

I think it's a bad idea to leave the Golden Horde out, it leaves too big of a gap.

[Narayanese]

2) Hmmm, Golden Horde or Persians? When Timur Lenk died in 1405 what happened with his empire?

His son took over the eastern part while the western part, ie modern iraq and iran, were conqured by the black sheep federation (source) who in turn were soon defeated by the white sheep federation in modern iraq and the safavid in modern iran. All these three are turkomen groups from east anatolia. The eastern part was taken by the shaybanids (an uzbek state) in the late 15th century.
Myself I definitely choose golden horde over a timurid state, as a kingdom that ruled modern turkmenistan and uzbekistan and there around has very little to do with the rest of the factions we've got.

[Ignoramus]

Poland was very big at this time, and powerful. They had just merged with Lithuania. Their territory extends up to Estonia, Latvia, and modern Lithuania, and bit more. Russia and Poland will fight each other. It will be very balenced.

[caesar44]

It's they who are the golden horde...
And the mod starts in 1402 fyi

no no no !!!!!!!!!!
the golden horde are mongols and the tartars are turkish !!!!!!!!!
when the golden horde collapsed in ca. 1440 the tartars emerged as separated khanate called the astrakhan khanate to these people and kingdom i pointed

[Cronos Impera]

Dear gentlemen, I've heard the new expansion pack for RTW has new faction slots. Can't Citadel Total War wait 'till then. After that we could talk about the factions. I am a little dissapointed though. The hotspot of Europe in the XV-XVI centuries is the Balkan perimeter, where European and Muslim powers ( The Holy League vs. The Ottoman Empire) fought their battles. Two principalities halted the Ottoman expansion in Central Europe ( Wallachia and Moldavia). In 1600 Michael the Great temporarily unites the Romanian Provinces in a new power. His death resulted in the distruction of the great principality. Why build unstable factions such as the knightly orders since these orders ware put in service of a country. The Knights of St.John for instance ware hosted in Wallachia by the hugaryan king, Bela.
Proposed "houses" - Hungary
- The Teutonic Knights
- Italian city states

Room left for - Moldavia
- Caffa

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Citadel will wait for BI and we will definately use the expansion, barring some big bugs. We may then be able to add more factions and such. Also remember this is from 1402 to 1600. Michae the Great's Romania comes in at the very end of the time period, we want to make the mod have the best factions possible that existed in 1402. His Romania comes around 198 years later, even a faction that came into power in 1450 is too late.

This will allow people to try to take factions that were in decline in 1402 back to their previous glory, or save some from imminent defeats. This is why at one point we were thinking of including the Templars I believe, or maybe it was the Knights of St. John. I am unsure of which it was, but they were defeated within 20 years of 1402. Until we came up with a more suitable faction they were acceptable because their faction was still a powerful force in 1402.

If anybody is interested this is the current faction list. I will place it in the title thread as well.

*Barbarian: (west europe)
Castile and Leon
Kalmar Union
England
France
Burgundy
Scotland
*Rebel=West European Independent State

*Greek: (muslim)
Golden Horde
Moors
Mamluks
Ottoman Turks
*Rebel=Muslim Independent State

*Eastern: (italian)
Venice
Milan
Naples
*Rebel=Italian City State

*Roman: (german)
Imperial diet (Frankfort on Main)
Habsburgs
Saxony
Bavaria
*Rebel=German Free Imperial City

*Egypt: (orthodox)
Muscovy
*Rebel=Orthodox Christian Independent State
*(including balkan rebels)

*Carthaginian: (east catholic europe)
Poland
Hungary
*Rebels=Central European Independent State

[Janissary Karamurat]

[QUOTE=Uesugi Kenshin]"Citadel will wait for BI and we will definately use the expansion, barring some big bugs. We may then be able to add more factions and such. Also remember this is from 1402 to 1600. Michae the Great's Romania comes in at the very end of the time period, we want to make the mod have the best factions possible that existed in 1402. His Romania comes around 198 years later, even a faction that came into power in 1450 is too late."

Will there be a playable beta before BI will come out? I cant stand waiting so long until BI comes out...

Pls dont get me wrong, u make a great work. Just for me, Im not that much excited about BI, but maybe i would buy it even if only for being able to play Citadel. What do u think of bringing out a beta-beta version of the mod?