Re: Your Opinions on Moral/Cultural Relativity
I think we should distinguish between what society allows, and what society thinks is right/wrong.
Many times societies will allow things that are universally wrong for their own reasons. Many people knew slavery was wrong in their hearts, even in the south, but when your making big $$ off of it, its easy to submit to the apologists.
Re: Your Opinions on Moral/Cultural Relativity
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
yea - that's why the average white farmhand in the south also believed that there was nothing wrong with slavery
because they were rolling in loot
i just dont believe in inherent morality
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 07-08-2005 at 23:57.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Your Opinions on Moral/Cultural Relativity
Moral relativism whether it be between person to person, society to society or culture to culture is clearly there and most definitely evident. What one person perceives as 'right' is different to anothers, what one society perceives as 'right' is different to others and the same for cultures.
We all need to simply choose what we believe is right and wrong and act upon that choice, everyone else does the same thing. Society can influence your decision making, but that does not get away from the fact that at the end we are simply free to choose and we cannot get away from that fact, which means there will always be moral relativism.
And I think that is right and dandy.
GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.
Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944
Re: Your Opinions on Moral/Cultural Relativity
Well done JAG. I especially like this part:
we are simply free to choose and we cannot get away from that fact
because it's the foundamental truth. Anyone can commit any crime at any time, and there's no amount guilt to keep him/her from doing so.
We all have to have personal responsibility for our own percieved notions.
Oh and compassion IS universal so we still got that.
Re: Your Opinions on Moral/Cultural Relativity
this is not a new idea - free choice is an archaic concept that is in the old testament and new one (and is much older than that) - it is the concept that has always fuelled the fight about pre-destination in the christian church and many others.
no one, here anyway, is denying that this is most likely true
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Your Opinions on Moral/Cultural Relativity
You cannot play that card unfortunately. What we do is what we choose, what we choose is what we believe, simple as that. We are not what we could / should / would / wanted but didn't / thought in our heart of hearts, etc, we should have done. We simply are what we act upon.
To go around life stating that you are not what you do but what you think you should have done, is absurd. Not only are you judged on what you do, but you define yourself by your actions, none of which involve your 'real' wants. It is rubbish.
Therefore to say those who supported slavery in the South 'truly' didn't because they 'truly' didn't support it in their heads and hearts, is wrong.
GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.
Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944
Re: Your Opinions on Moral/Cultural Relativity
i agree
but i tend to support and vote in favor of conservative christians over liberal secularists even though i believe that my ideologies lie closer to liberal end
that is just the way it is - that is how i act - in opposition to the way that i think
but if the people in the south WERE racist
supported slavery and in some circles still believe in it - i dont know where you get the idea that "deep down they really didnt buy it"
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 07-09-2005 at 00:08.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Your Opinions on Moral/Cultural Relativity
Tuff, I don't think the line I have mentioned in this thread is completely to the 'liberal' extreme. Yes it was espoused by lefty figures, especially Sartre, but what it does also state is complete responsibility for your actions. If you kill someone and you know it is against the law, you have to face up to the responsibility of your decision if caught. If you decide to smoke cigarettes, you have to take the responsibility with your choice, no use saying 'I only smoke because my friends do' - no it is YOU which made the choice to smoke, your friends could not have forced you, you actively choose to smoke. It is your responsibility.
That - to me at least - is not out of bounds of many, many conservative view points.
GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.
Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944
Re: Your Opinions on Moral/Cultural Relativity
i cannot buy the responsibility bit as a foundation for any sort of morality
yes i am "responsible" for my actions, i agree- but what does responsibility actually mean? i am responsible for my life, but not in the same way someone puts childrens lives in your responsibility. the responsibility when watching children denotes some positive outcome - if you succeed in your responsibilities, the children are either better or the same
if you fail - something bad has happened
without a judgement figure - existentialism really relies on the alternative definition of the term responsible: Being a source or cause; rather than the one that seems to guide what sartre believed (from my understanding at least). he seems to match it up with responsibility in the way of a babysitter with pre-established guidelines - when i believe that that is a logical leap.
if i smoke ciggarettes - i am responsible for that decision because i caused it, not because i am answerable to any other authority. it has nothing to do with any morality or responsibility for all men - that makes no reeal sense - there is no judgement standard
can anyone explain what i am getting at here any better?
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 07-09-2005 at 00:29.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Your Opinions on Moral/Cultural Relativity
I think plenty of people think one thing and do another. Just because you are judged on your actions doesnt mean you believe what you did was right.You cannot play that card unfortunately. What we do is what we choose, what we choose is what we believe, simple as that. We are not what we could / should / would / wanted but didn't / thought in our heart of hearts, etc, we should have done. We simply are what we act upon.
To go around life stating that you are not what you do but what you think you should have done, is absurd. Not only are you judged on what you do, but you define yourself by your actions, none of which involve your 'real' wants. It is rubbish.
Therefore to say those who supported slavery in the South 'truly' didn't because they 'truly' didn't support it in their heads and hearts, is wrong.
Its seems to my you are assuming everyone does what they think is right. Im saying that some cultures allow "wrong" things because they benefit from them.
Im not claiming the southerners didnt truly support slavery, im just saying most didnt try to justify it as the right thing to do - some did, but i dont think most.
Ive read some things by Lee and Jackson and they saw slavery as a neccessary evil that would eventually die out - in essense, they put the welfare of their culture, the white southern culture, above the culture of the blacks.
So going all the way back to Navs argument - Just because a culture allows something by law doesnt mean that culture has accepted it as a just or good thing.
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