Game of democracy (multiplayer campaign).

[Patron]

An idea generated in www.civfanatics.com's forums, several people have their say on how the game is played turn per turn. Every 2 days or so the host sends some screenies of how the game is progressing and people who have a been given a certain position have their say and other people vote on what to do etc...

It's good because, whether you just want to have a say or play an in depth part of the game you can do so.

Viking Invasion add on, un-modded, Byzantines in Late era, with the objective of beating back the Turks and restoring the glory of the Byzantine empire (glorious achievements).

Positions.

King , the host, will probably choose how battles are fought aswell, seeing as he will be the one to do them. The host will have to promise not to quick save and reload battles, to make things realistic and accept the suggestions of his lieutenants.

Captain of Industry , responsible for allocating florins and organising the navy.

Master imperialist , reponsible for choosing which provinces to invade and keep and which ones to raid (for instance deciding to invade Flanders from Britain, but not Normandy, because the army would have to be split to defend 2 provinces) and where emmisaries, princesses, spies, assassins and priests should go.

Lieutenants , responsible for: analysing the different troops involved in battles, determinning whether it is safe to attack or if a province can be defended and how the battle/siege/castle assault/defense should be fought; what troops need to be trained and analysing screenies of how battles went sent by the host to determine how to avoid mistakes or gain successes more in the future.

Each of these positions can create lower positiosn if they want, except the voters.

Voters , anyone who goes onto the thread and has a say. I don't think if I started a game of democracy there would be enough voters to have a democracy...

What do you think?

[TonkaToys]

Seems like a good idea... I was toying with introducing something like that in my MP campaign, so that you could have families of nobles etc. with their own responsibilities, armies, and even allegiences etc.
I'd better get the system working first though!
(Check my sig for info).

[BAD]

I'd be up for a game like that Patron. Sounds fun an interesting and getting many people together, with minimal communication, to try to beat the AI with a specific objective. Sounds fun and a challenge.

[Alexius II Loukas]

I'd be in. Definitely.

[antisocialmunky]

I'd be up for that.

I have a suggestion. Can people roleplay generals? I mean, generals on the world map? The King can order them to attack and they requisition troops from him.

It'd be tedious transmitting the save files, but that'd be cool none the less. I'm not saying I want to be a general... my schedule's full, but it's a possibility.

[Patron]

Hmm...

I'm going to start a standard game and just leave it like that and give everyone the information, as if we are a bunch of nobles or something deciding apon the future of the kingdom.

viking invasion, unmodded, Byzantines late medieval era (1321 AD), Glorious Achievements, largest units possible (200 spearmen and byzantine infantry, 120 archers and men at arms, 80 cavalry etc..)



Right now we own only Byzantium, Nicea and Rhodes, but we have 1 emmisary who can bribe either the Lord of Trebizond or the Lord of Bulgaria for around 1800. We can also bribe anatolia for a mere 1575 florins, but cannot reach it yet. It is probably best to gain Trebizond, before the Turks get to it and next year bribe the Lord of Anatolia and train 1 more emmisary so we can bribe any other possibilities and overcome any difficulties in bribing back a large chunk of our empire as quickly as possible.

We gain 4 victory points for keeping Constantinople, 2 for Nicaea and 1 for Rhodes and we gain a point for every 2 provinces we conquer. There are

and points are counted on


There is an master bowyer in Bulgaria, an bowyer's workshop and spear workshop in Trebizond and a town guard in Anatolia and a monastery in Greece and some other insignificant buildings, nothing special.


Byzantium has a ship building guild and a cannon foundry (foundry lvl3), it also has a swordsmiths guild a tavern, brothel, cathedral and gunsmith workshop. It is probably best to use Byzantium as a cannon producing factory and build a master foundry and gunsmiths guild to get some advanced artillery. We can build demi culverins at the moment which take 3 turn a piece and it takes 10 turns to build a master foundry after which we will want to build full culverins, so it might be an idea to get 1 orthodox bishop and send him on a tour of arabia. Information gatherring and converting.

Emperor Andronicus II is in the province at the moment 3* with 80 Kataphraktoi. Also with another unit of 40 kataphraktoi 100 byzantine infantry and 60 varangian guard.


Nicaea will have to be our elite troop producing heart province, it will have to generalise aswell seeing as it is our most technically advanced province in terms of weapon workshops and has an armourers workshop.

40 Pronoiai, 60 Trebizond archers, 100 B infantry in Nicaea. All with a +3 armour upgrade.


Rhodes has a keep a church and a royal palace and some other pointless stuff. It is best to build a boat builder here and whilst it is being built, train 4 emmisaries. It has access to the mainland via it's port and the galley in the dodecanese sea.

All provinces have access to our controlled seas and everything adjacent, so we could send all of our troops toc Greece if we wanted.


It would cost 8500 florins to bribe the Lord of Greece, so it might be an idea to invade after we build some demi culverins in Constantinople first to deal with their fortications, however it would probably be best to focus our energies on attacking the Turks who will probably be a problem in the future.. We have no other information on the Turks at the moment, Princess Vigilantia could be used to gather this information as quickly as possible as our emmisary will be occupied with Byzantium intrigue.

Greek Garrison
40 Byzantine cavalry
100 Byzantine infantry Nicephorus Comnenus 2*<(command lvl 2)
60 crossbowmen
Castle

We have 2 war galleys in Sea Marmara, a fire galley and a galley in the Aegean sea and a galley in the Dodecanese sea. We should extend our naval power to the Black sea for trade (we have no trading post in Nicaea) and to the Eastern mediteranean to give us a strategic advantage in our war with the turks, if war with Turkey is what the council decides.


Nothing really is different from this game which i have just started and the game you can start up yourself, except for the unit stats. So there is no need for me to send you a save game. All I have done so far is increase taxes in all provinces to very high and put all the units in a province in the same stack.

Which reminds me.

How would I send you the save game?

General's stats.

Emperor Andronicus II
I6P7D3C2A1 (Influence Piety...), devout, valour = 1 (+1 due to command, 2 in total)

Starred Generals

Emperor Andronicus II **
George Vatatzes * (command 1) War Galley Marmara
Romanus Ducas * Aegean
Constantine Ducas * Dodecanese
Michal Phocas * L6D2C1, Pronoiai Nicaea
Alexius Vatatzes * , L5C1A3 Kataphraktoi Constantinople Valour = 1

3+ Acumen Generals

vvvvJohn Comnenus L3P3D1A4, B Infantry Rhodes
vvvvRomanus Calaphates L8A4, Trebizonds Nicaea
vvvAndronicus Botaneiates, L4P2D2A3 Bombard Constantinople
vvvAlexius Vatatzes, L5C1A3 Kataphraktoi Constantinople Valour = 1

[Patron]

Andronicus is a 2* general and 35 years old

[Patron]

so much information to process, so little concentration..

There are 32 more points to score in total

and points are counted on 1350, 1375, 1400, 1425 and 1453



We should discuss what we should blitz in these early years before other factions begin to build gigantic armies. The hoarde is on the other side of the black sea, the hungars to the west and our competitors and ancient enemies the turks to the east and further east and south are the egyptians, whom we can terrorize by sea easily after we gain some sort of foothold on the world. We should then fine tune a plan to achieve these objectives.

[antisocialmunky]

Bribe Bulgaria to get the master bower, that way you have a dedicated bower province. Let the Turks bribe Trebizond, it'll waste their cash and you can slap the army there with your's. Bulgaria is a fortress anyways, it's worth more than a spearmaker right now and Arbs are worth more than Trebizonds.

If it can be done, invade them and bribe with 4 emissaries. It'll reduce the cost and the chance of developing anti-bribe traits. If you invade and drive the rebels into the castles, the enemy will have to attack you and not rebels.

We should build large amounts of Byzantine Infantry at Constantinople and Byzantine Cavalry in Nicea. We can use the Infantry to force retreats by rebels in order to later bribe and we can use the Byzantine Cavalry against the Turks to take down their numbers before they retreat to from the field after we invade Rum. We should hire merc field artillery because it's faster.

I vote we don't challenge the horde or the Cathys except defensively. Secure Greece unless someone takes it. Take out Egypt's holdings, perhaps leave them with the crusader target states and destroy the Almohads. Max out gold mining in North Afrika to get alot of cash. Then invade Iberia. Iberia has high development so you can start churning out fully upgraded Byzantines. Then the sky's the limit.

[Alexius II Loukas]

Slowly, my friend, slowly. I agree with the assertion that we should take Bulgaria first. The idea to attack Bulgaria and then bribe sounds good, but what if they don't buy? I've had that happen before. I think it's better just to bribe, then put the general if he gets a bribe trait in the fortress.

We need numbers, soldiers in the field to keep us secure for now.

And, just for my own clarity of mind...who is who?

As in, who are the generals, who are the administrators, etc...

I know Patron is the emperor. Just who exactly am I?

[antisocialmunky]

Bribe with 2-4 emissaries at a time. If that doesn't work, it's likely it won't work. Generals in fortresses get cheaper.

[Patron]

Some info I left out.

Rhodes has 40 Pronoiai, 12 napthas and 100 B infantry.


Emperor Andronicus I **(2 command stars), Constantinople, I6P7D3C2A1, 80 Kataphraktoi, devout, V(valour)=1 (total of 2 due to valour bonus due to ** command)


There are 3 * Naval Captains

George Vatatzes *, Sea Marmara, War Galley
Romanus Ducas *. Aegean, Galley
Constantine Ducas *, Dodecanese Sea Galley

There are 2 War Galleys in the Sea Marmara, a Galley and Fire Galley in the Aegean Sea and a Gally in the Dodecanese Sea.

We should send the Galley in the Aegean sea to the Sea Marmara. A War Galley to the black sea and the other War Galley to the Aegean sea. To swap weaker ships which are nearer to our enemies with stronger ships.

We need to reach a decision as whether we should move the fire galley to the dodecanese sea and the galley there to the eastern mediterranean, or whether to send the fire galley to crete. I think we should send the Fire Galley to dodecan and the galley to the eastern mediteranean, so we can attack the turks by sea.

According to our plans the next ship will be built in 7 turns and if we apply our naval power to the eastern mediterenean we will gain access to some egyptian docks for trade, before we declare war on them.


There are 6 generals with either 1 command star or more or an acumen lvl of 3 or more.

There are 4 generals with lvl 3 acumen or more, one of them is a * general.
Alexius Vataztes * L5C1A3, 40 Kataphraktoi V=1, Constantinople
John Comnenus L3P3D1A4, 100 Infantry, Rhodes
Romanus Calaphates L8A4 , 60 Trebizond Archers, Nicaea
Andronicus Botaneiates L4P2D2A3, 12 Bombard, Constantinople

There is another * general.
Michael Phocas *, L6D2C1, 40 Pronoiai +3 Ab (armour bonus), Nicaea


On money and command stars...

We should dish out a few titles, but we won't have many spare emmissaries in the next 3 years or so to reassign roles and titles, so we need to decide carefully.

Titles
Con 2L 2C
Nic 1L
Rhodes 1L 2A

Roles
Chamberlain 2L 2A
Stables 2L 2C
Patriarch 2A 3P
Chancellor 3L 1A 1C
Fleet 1L 2C
Army 2L 2C


Alexius Vataztes*L5C1A3 and Michael Phocas*L6D2C1, should certainly get the +2 command roles. They are both cavalry and we need them as generals. It might be an idea to also give Alexius Vataztes the title of Lord of Constantinople as his acumen is 3 and we wouldn't lose too much money and he'd become a useful ***** general. However it might be better to give lordship to an acumen 4 general and give him the role of Chamberlain, so we can get more money out of Constantinople. In any case he will occupied for 2 years as he goes to Nicaea to retrain up to a 80 Kataphraktoi unit with a +3 Ab, this needs to be done as Kataphraktoi is the best unit we have and should be retrained and put into action as soon as possible and both * generals should get a + 2 command role.

We can later one take the titles away from Alexius Vataztes, by which time, hopefully, we can retitle him with another province and put an acumen lvl 4 with the role of chamberlain into governance of Constantinople.


At the moment we have an annual turnover of 1487 florins, 1172 of which is used to support out troops, leaving 315 net profit. This is just a prediction, subject to change once we dish out titles and later one, once our naval power reachs the black sea (the hoarde) and the eastern mediteranean (the egyptians).

[Patron]

In terms of our government structure, our government isn't large enough to need a structure, we are just an oligarchy.


I agree with Anti-social munky. Though not with his imperialistic plan completely. While we should set our sights high, I think you missed out some opporunities in the north and west aswell. If we can conquer our way across North Africa, we'd probably be better off invading hungary and dominating the mediteranean aswell.

I think we should conquer the following provinces, then achieve the following objectives.


First we need to deal with the Turks, it is too hard to conquer greece, it is better to waste our resources on easier provinces and then on the Turks before botherring with that place. We should bribe Trebizond first, then Nicaea with the same emmisary. To take Bulgaria we should begin training an emmisary this turn and send him in to bribe the Bulgars next turn. We need to deal with the Turks first as if my plan works. We can seal off 15 provinces and only have to split our armies to defend 5 provinces from invasion.


We need to take and fortify Anatolia and Trebizond first and as quickly as possible, before the turks get to them. If they do manage to get to them before us, we need to do a proper invasion and wate our resources taking them, otherwise we risk an attack on our heartlands.

We must then wage war on the turks and wipe them out and then quickly occupy and pacify their territories so they cannot return.

The last hard bit is to take over any remaining rebel provinces in

Rum Armenia, Edessa and Lesser Armenia.

We must then wait a while, training some more troops, before going on to finnish off the plan, by partaking in 3 small campaigns to secure our territory.

We must choose to expend resources in invading: Serbia and Greece; Georgia then Khazar; Syria and Antioch. Each campaign will consist of a well organised blitz into the territory, we have a large array of elite specialist troops, except for spearmen.


If all works well, we should be able to go on to complete all of these logical objectives.

Train loads of orthodox bishops and priests and send them to each province on the continent.

Build a giant continental trading fleet and amass 10000s of florins each turn.
Conquer all the islands in the mediteranean.
Raid anyone we want.

Conquer Egypt and then North Africa.

Conquer the Hoarde. and seal off Russia by taking Lithuania and Kiev.

Conquer Hungary and use the iron there to train +4 Ab (attack bonus) Katapraktoi and just generally conquer the planet.

[antisocialmunky]

Bribery is not a 100% thing with one emissary, too often they reject them and gain a trait level for anti-bribing. You have to use 2 minimium bribing the same stack to have a good chance, 4's usually enough.

I'd still take Iberia though, Spaniards can get messy unless you can get them to turn onto the otehr Cathys and turn Europe Yellow. I'd use Iberia as a staging point for the eventual invasion of France and Europe and Const as a staging point for the invasion of Russia with an eventual pincer move into Europe.

[antisocialmunky]

Updating anytime soon?

[CountMRVHS]

I'm not really interested in joining this particular game, but I had an idea that might make it more interesting for other people.

For the battles, instead of having the host always command, how about this:

Since the host is the Emperor/King, have him fight the battles when the King is involved.

Any time there is a battle with another general, send the information to someone else so they can set up a custom battle and fight it themselves. If you wanted to get really organized, you might divide up the people who are playing along into "Princes" and "Generals"; a "Prince" player fights the battle that a Prince is involved in, and a "General" player fights a battle where non-royalty is involved. They could then take turns amongst themselves fighting the battles.

Of course the Host would have a big part in making these battles exciting for the players, by giving a run-down of the scenario so the players know what they're fighting for. So, if the Host decides to send his son and heir to attack Turkish-held Trebizond, for example, he'd post something in the thread about why this battle is being fought and what he hopes to accomplish. If Byzantium can hold this province, we will gain a land route across Asia Minor and finally unite our far-flung armies. Something like that.

Also, you could include the general's Vices & Virtues to spice it up a bit.

Just a thought. Man, though, writing about it makes me want to try it....

CountMRVHS

[Patron]

No one's reached any decisions. I wasted my time.

:(

[bretwalda]

There werent any decision options put up for vote... or discussion. Also a savegame would come in handy...

I still find it an interesting try (tho I never played demogame in civ3 I did play an awful lot of civ... )

[antisocialmunky]

I got bored and tried my hand at the first late campaign I've played.

I bribed Bulgaria and took Trebizond first turn with my tiny army. I made a 5 star general out of the Kataphrakt in Const. with combos of the titles.

The Turks sent everything they had and sat outside of Anatolia castle sieging out rebels and putting down Christian revolts. I took Rum(barely) and ended the siege of Trezbond and with a bribe of Lesser Armenia. I surround the Turks and the Horde seems quite sedate whilst I plan on taking Greece and kicking the Huns out of Serbia.

The date is 1325 and the Empire is reclaimed.

[Alexius II Loukas]

I don't care whether or not I actually fight the battles. I lose waay too many guys fighting expert custom battles anyway (as I use the random units that the ai gives me) But since they won't be random...

Patron, as soon as I have some time to really get down and study what we've got, I give you a post that'll make you hate me. But, I like the ideas you put forth, so I give you my agreement.

Have at the Turks!

[King of Atlantis]

What difficulty is this campaign on cause on easy any descision will work as long as you make one.

[antisocialmunky]

Seriously, aren't you the king/host person? Aren't you suppoed to decide?