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Thread: Armour in the desert

  1. #1

    Default Armour in the desert

    Everyone knows too much armour in the desert is bad, I've read that a unit with armour 5 or higher (not including shield bonus) tires at a faster rate in the desert, but I've also read in posts people not giving any armour upgrades at all to any units for use in the desert. Presumabley any armour increase makes the unit tire quicker than it would have done.
    Heres what I do, I would like to here other opinions / comments:

    Any unit with armour less than 3 gets upgrades to give it a total armour of 3,
    eg archers, ghazis get +2; gallowglasses get +1 etc
    Any unit with armour 3 or 4 I leave alone with no upgrade, I tend to use less armour level 4 units.
    All mounted missile units get no upgrades as I tend to make them do a lot of work running around in a battle and keep them away from missile duels.
    I almost never use units of armour 5 or higher in the desert.

    I've never really had much problems with fatigue, but I'm keen to learn from the experiences of others.

    So comments generally please, also in particular
    -Do you leave your guys totally unarmoured?
    -Would you use armour level 4 rather than 3 as a base?
    -Do you add armour to your mounted missiles (and does that change how you use them)?
    -Do you use heavily armoured troops and make a quick assault?

  2. #2
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Infantry with armour 1-2 has same fatigue as normal (as in not being in a desert at all) the higher the value after 1-2 the quicker the units gets fatigued.

    For cavalry its armour 2-3.


    CBR

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    The Orgs Prophet of RATM Member IrishMike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Personally I never worry about the armor amount. Unless its a Multiplayer game, I just take the heavy infantry into battle and the heavy calv. Of course their is not much moving around, no fancy tactics, just a straight head on advance and attack. Most Muslim factions won't be able to stand up to this, untill the very late game, so its not really a concern.
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    The hair proves it... Senior Member EatYerGreens's Avatar
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    Question Re: Armour in the desert

    Tigger,

    excuse my ignorance but what is level 5 armour? The only levels I know of are plain (none), dark grey (gunmetal? colour), silver and gold. Am I missing one there? Like 'bronze' colour, or something?



    I don't see armour for desert troops as an absolute no-no though. If you can afford the luxury, you might want to have an armoured army at the frontier province and keep back an unarmoured army for counter attacking, should you ever lose a territory.

    Reason being, when defending, you want them to come to you, then be able to slug it out and surviving the slugging matches are what armour is all about. Fatigue is not a problem if the enemy are running off the field...

    Meanwhile, when you're on the offensive, you need the extra endurance and speed of movement and may have to accept the likelihood of higher casualties.
    Last edited by EatYerGreens; 07-08-2005 at 20:03.

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    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    As a general rule, the most armour I'll give to any unit is usually +2 (unless their armour rating already starts out higher, of course), maybe +3. This is especially true of light cavalry, as I like them to be able to remain mobile without tiring in the first minute of battle. (Besides, in my opinion, light cav shouldn't attack anything where it would need a higher armour bonus than that anyway. )

    Of course, as 3 of my favorite factions are the Spanish, Egyptians, and Byzantines, I'm used to fighting in the desert a lot, and I tend to play to each of those factions' strengths. So since a lot of Byz of units start out with pretty high armour bonuses (katanks, VG, PA, Byz Inf. Byz Lancers, etc.), I usually don't need to go in for a lot of armour upgrades, if at all. Since most Egyptian units are built for speed and/or stamina, I'll give them just 2-3 armour upgrades.

    The Spanish are a little trickier, as I have them fighting a lot of desert battles (against the Almos and later on the Egyptians). Since they're a Catholic faction, however, their units are built for strength and power--and therefore you generally want to give them more armour bonuses to augment this.

    In the end, what I usually wind up doing with most factions is have half my provinces training units with a lot of armour bonuses (usually heavy infantry and spear/seargent/pike units, as they generally don't move around a whole lot), and the other half training units with just a couple armour upgrades (usually missile units, cavarly, and any fast infantry with a high attack/defense ratio, such as Ghazi's or Highland Clansmen).
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    Member Member Mujalumbo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Quote Originally Posted by tigger_on_vrb
    Everyone knows too much armour in the desert is bad
    That depends on who's wearing the armour, me or my enemies. ;)

    I don't have a hard and fast rule when it comes to armour in the desert. I've crusaded to Palestine and saw my exausted bronze-armoured Order Footsoldiers rout unit after unit.

    Playing a Catholic faction, if I have the luxury of time, I'll create a desert army specifically for the southern lands; lots of archers, spears, light cav, and some armoured up hard-hitting heavy cav for flanking. I've found that Feudal Men-at-arms without armour upgrades do eventually exhaust out and start taking casualties; still worth it though.
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    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Quote Originally Posted by tigger_on_vrb
    Everyone knows too much armour in the desert is bad
    Yes, too much armour in the desert is bad, but don't forget that armour brings defense benefits!

    It's a trade off between stamina and defense.
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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Well, if I have to fight in the desert as a Cathy, I'd take over Ireland and pump Gallowglasses.

    I mean... seriously, BEST ... DESERT UNIT .... EVER.

    Those guys are like Lancers with two feet and no armour and AP!

    Gallowglasses.
    Charge 8 Attack 5 Defence 0 Armour 2 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 0 Cost 200 Support cost 22


    Lancers
    Charge 8 Attack 5 Defence 7 Armour 9 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 8 Cost 850 Support cost 85

    Feudal knights.
    Charge 8 Attack 4 Defence 3 Armour 4 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 8 Cost 425 Support cost 105

    Chivalric knights.
    Charge 8 Attack 5 Defence 5 Armour 7 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 8 Cost 675 Support cost 85

    I mean... those guys out charge KNIGHTs. FREAKING FEUDAL KNIGHTS!!!

    It's actually pretty easy yo get them because I think it's three to four ships to Ireland. If you're playing the Spanish, you get them to +3 attack and + 2 valour. I think Ireland gives a bonus to them but I may be wrong. You can get it from a general anyways, bribe El Cid.

    That's a total of:

    Charge 8 Attack 10 Defence 2 Armour 2 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 4 Cost 200 Support cost 22

    WITH AP!

    Hell, give them armour Bonuses after your romp through North Afrika and send them to take out the Byz.
    Last edited by antisocialmunky; 07-08-2005 at 21:05.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    I usually do North Africa last, I don't build desert armies. I just fight VERY fast. Pound the Chivalric Knights fast out to the flanks and the heavy spears up the centre, bang. Battle Over.

    That said I do suffer with knights, thats why I modded the game so that Catholics produce Mounted Nobles. Those are good desert Cav.
    Last edited by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus; 07-08-2005 at 23:17.
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    Chief Sniffer Senior Member ichi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
    Tigger,

    excuse my ignorance but what is level 5 armour? The only levels I know of are plain (none), dark grey (gunmetal? colour), silver and gold. Am I missing one there? Like 'bronze' colour, or something?
    Each unit starts with a base armor value, hit F1 during a battle for a screen that will show the armor (as well as att. def, and morale) stats for your guys.

    Each upgrading of armor (grey silver gold) adds plus one to your unit's armor stat.

    There are some Muslim units that start with armor level 5, and I've found that it is possible to use these units in the desert successfully, you just can't let them stand forever, or run them too much.

    Of course, as CBR and others have stated, units with low armor (1-2) fatigue much slower in the hot sun.

    ichi
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    The hair proves it... Senior Member EatYerGreens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Thanks for the insight ichi,

    if you hadn't told me, I would have thought F1 would have brought up some kind of help menu. (doh!!) Well, I said I was ignorant. Is this another one of these undocumented features? How the heck did people find these things out by accident, is what I have to wonder.


    Anyway, stopping to press keys and gaze at stats during a battle? That's a whole new ball game to me - I'm far too carried away by the action to even think of stuff like that. (Can it be done before pressing the 'Begin Battle' button?)

    By contrast, I've seen posts from people to whom the concept of conducting battles without resorting to issuing battle orders in pause mode is a whole new concept too.

    Not that I'm a denizen of the multiplayer rooms though - I've never actually tried MP yet - it's more to do with acknowledgment of the fact that real-life generals weren't superhuman, did not have a bird's eye view of the action and there's a limit to how complex an order can be when it needs to be executed seconds from now. In other words conveyed by the medieval equivalent of the bugle-call, rather than by a rider, with all the delay that entails.

    There are times when my units are off chasing things and I will use the local unit-view to find out what's going on and act as unit commander for a moment but that's as far as I'll use the 'demigod' mode. Most of the time, it's a case of organised chaos with me, even when I'm winning. I think I'd get eaten alive on MP.

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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    I've never used pause in a fight, it takes away the challenge. I've never found the need to really.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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  13. #13

    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    You can only train Gallowglasses in Ireland and Ireland doesn't have rich iron deposits. How do you up the attack by 3? Without modding.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Quote Originally Posted by Patron
    You can only train Gallowglasses in Ireland and Ireland doesn't have rich iron deposits. How do you up the attack by 3? Without modding.
    They get a valour bonus for buliding them in Ireland, which adds +1 to attack and defence and to morale aswell I think. Also I guess if you build the Master Swordsmith they get a further valour bonus when built there again giving the same bonus. Then you can add a generals bonus from command stars on top of that. . . and maybe the unit may even get vice's and virtues like Pride/Killer Instinct/Argumentative. WooooooHoooooooooooo's!!!

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    Chief Sniffer Senior Member ichi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
    Thanks for the insight ichi,

    if you hadn't told me, I would have thought F1 would have brought up some kind of help menu. (doh!!) Well, I said I was ignorant. Is this another one of these undocumented features? How the heck did people find these things out by accident, is what I have to wonder.


    Anyway, stopping to press keys and gaze at stats during a battle? That's a whole new ball game to me - I'm far too carried away by the action to even think of stuff like that. (Can it be done before pressing the 'Begin Battle' button?)

    By contrast, I've seen posts from people to whom the concept of conducting battles without resorting to issuing battle orders in pause mode is a whole new concept too.

    Not that I'm a denizen of the multiplayer rooms though - I've never actually tried MP yet - it's more to do with acknowledgment of the fact that real-life generals weren't superhuman, did not have a bird's eye view of the action and there's a limit to how complex an order can be when it needs to be executed seconds from now. In other words conveyed by the medieval equivalent of the bugle-call, rather than by a rider, with all the delay that entails.

    There are times when my units are off chasing things and I will use the local unit-view to find out what's going on and act as unit commander for a moment but that's as far as I'll use the 'demigod' mode. Most of the time, it's a case of organised chaos with me, even when I'm winning. I think I'd get eaten alive on MP.
    If you haven't tried MP, I still highly recommend it. The AI can throw some things at you, but a human can really make things tough.

    And, it will help improve your ability to organize.

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Been experimenting with using troops without any armour upgrades. It's a semi expensive method though, as your first line will often loose, but the second won't , as the enemy gets exhausted troops for the rest of the battle. No need to care about tired troops.

    Although I think a medium armored first line, withdrawed after the first battle and replaced with light troops, would work best.
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    Master of Puppets Member bretwalda's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
    Thanks for the insight ichi,

    if you hadn't told me, I would have thought F1 would have brought up some kind of help menu. (doh!!) Well, I said I was ignorant. Is this another one of these undocumented features? How the heck did people find these things out by accident, is what I have to wonder.


    Anyway, stopping to press keys and gaze at stats during a battle? That's a whole new ball game to me - I'm far too carried away by the action to even think of stuff like that. (Can it be done before pressing the 'Begin Battle' button?)

    By contrast, I've seen posts from people to whom the concept of conducting battles without resorting to issuing battle orders in pause mode is a whole new concept too.

    Not that I'm a denizen of the multiplayer rooms though - I've never actually tried MP yet - it's more to do with acknowledgment of the fact that real-life generals weren't superhuman, did not have a bird's eye view of the action and there's a limit to how complex an order can be when it needs to be executed seconds from now. In other words conveyed by the medieval equivalent of the bugle-call, rather than by a rider, with all the delay that entails.

    There are times when my units are off chasing things and I will use the local unit-view to find out what's going on and act as unit commander for a moment but that's as far as I'll use the 'demigod' mode. Most of the time, it's a case of organised chaos with me, even when I'm winning. I think I'd get eaten alive on MP.
    Yes, you can press F1 anytime on the battle screen. However there are some differences in a real battle and in a virtual battle that can justify using the pause button (of course only in single player because you can't stop multiplayer).

    E.g. you could tell one of your unit leaders who leads 39 turcoman horseriders, that

    "now as the battle start you go around the flank and start peppering the other army general. If any heavy cavalry starts chasing you then run and skirmish with your arrows. Keep away from any archers. Good Luck!"

    You cannot do this in the virtual battle, so you need to give orders on by one. Sometimes many in one second. Also I very often mis-click (clicking another unit or in between units in the bottom unit bar by giving move order instead of switching units).

    In multiplayer your adversary faces the same problems and challenges but AI does not. With the _sensible_ use of pause button your battles stay organized and if you replay it won't be a mess of troops slugging out (sometimes that happens even then...)
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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Quote Originally Posted by Patron
    You can only train Gallowglasses in Ireland and Ireland doesn't have rich iron deposits. How do you up the attack by 3? Without modding.
    Aw crap, I forgot you couldn't retrain like RTW where you can retrain everywhere and get bonuses from everywhere. Oh well, their base stats are insane compared to most infantry.

    Get a good general and they'll be laying the smack down in High and Late with all the super armoured units running around.
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    Chief Sniffer Senior Member ichi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    honorable bretwalda you make good points, but for me the whole point of the battle is to accept the challenge of managing 16 units without pausing. This, to me, is the game. In order to manage 16 units I have to organize them, group some, put some on auto, micro-manage some, and make the rounds checking in on all of them from time to time, setting priorities.

    There is no right or wrong to the 'pause' issue, just preference. The chaos, the confusion, the nick-of-time moves, the pace are what make this the best game.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Everyone knows too much armour in the desert is bad, I've read that a unit with armour 5 or higher (not including shield bonus) tires at a faster rate in the desert, but I've also read in posts people not giving any armour upgrades at all to any units for use in the desert. Presumabley any armour increase makes the unit tire quicker than it would have done.
    Well its more the class of aermor more than anything else that counts. If it says heavy armor its no good in the desert. I dont play sp but I consider myself the expert on desert warfare as far as mp goes. Theres nothing I like better than taking my English army into the desert and kicking some Muslim butt. I never and I mean never give any units armor ups in the desert. Your better off increasing either valor or weapons as they dont slow you down. Stamina ad energy management are the secrets to winning these battle. The only unit with any armor to speak of I use would be mounted sargents. Of course if you can rush it is possible to still use armor to your advantage. But you better win damn fast.
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 07-09-2005 at 20:51.
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    Bosna Member PittBull260's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    thats why I dont attack the deserts at all :)

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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Ya know, now that I think of it, I've never really had problems with the desert.

    The only units that you HAVE to worry about are insanely heavy units and cav like Gothic Seargents, Swiss Armor Pikemen, Gothic Knights, Kataphrakts, and all the other really heavy cav. And the only reason you should really pay attention to them are those insanely cheap camels.

    Heavy infantry still outclass or match Muslim units even when tired, they just have so much armor and defense making them able to last even when tired. Just put a good general behind them to counteract fatigue morale penalties so they don't rout. And DO NOT let tired infantry get flanked by cav, that WILL cause an autorout.

    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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    Master of Puppets Member bretwalda's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Most honorable and distinguished ichi, you have already proven yourself a worthy foe and a great commander! I humbly accept your opinion especially since we both want to get the most fun out of the game!

    In the beginning I used to use pause a lot, now less and less and most of the time I use when I misclicked and thereby disrupting my formation or moving the wrong unit, etc.

    I only said that there are some points that can be said to justify pausing. I think I can play most or all battles without pause and sometimes I do (useful for practicing MP, although I still mainly play SP) I guess it is just preference and of course whatever makes your game feel complete.


    Quote Originally Posted by ichi
    honorable bretwalda you make good points, but for me the whole point of the battle is to accept the challenge of managing 16 units without pausing. This, to me, is the game. In order to manage 16 units I have to organize them, group some, put some on auto, micro-manage some, and make the rounds checking in on all of them from time to time, setting priorities.

    There is no right or wrong to the 'pause' issue, just preference. The chaos, the confusion, the nick-of-time moves, the pace are what make this the best game.

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    Chief Sniffer Senior Member ichi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    I guess it is just preference and of course whatever makes your game feel complete.
    Absolutely

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    The hair proves it... Senior Member EatYerGreens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Quote Originally Posted by ichi
    If you haven't tried MP, I still highly recommend it. The AI can throw some things at you, but a human can really make things tough.

    I know. That's what I'm worried about.
    I frequently win against the AI but sometimes it's a real struggle. Whatever the 'grand plan' was, it usually ends up as a firefighting exercise, shifting attention from one crisis to the next and just ordering (to engage) whichever unit is closest to the one most in need of help rather than sending the correct troop types against their best target.

    When I do win, even then it's mostly down to making sure I outnumber or out-quality the opposing side before the off, which is a very conservative approach and doesn't speak particularly well for my abilities. I just bank on half my army routing at a critical point so always bring plenty of excess.

    I actually don't mind getting beaten by the AI, since it's generally a case of me under-garrisoning a province and getting steam-rollered off whatever hill I've perched myself on. If I lose when attacking then I only have myself to blame for stuffing it up.

    Now, losing to another person is a completely different matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ichi
    And, it will help improve your ability to organize.
    Aye, 's true.

    On the other hand, part of the chaos is down to troops not behaving as expected. On defence, I set the to hold position but there comes a time when something comes within reach and it's worth a quick charge to take advantage of the downslope. Only trouble being if the attackers run away, they then give chase. Sometimes they could be beyond the halfway line before they properly disengage and start trudging back to their 'hold' point and after all the running, they're knackered. All the while, I have a gap in my line which needs to be filled. Straightforward stuff, I know, but when my attention is held by action elsewhere, I sometimes don't see this chase going on and more than likely my runaway unit is being eaten up or captured by the incoming enemy reinforcements line.

    So, in a no-pause battle and when I'm on the ball, I'm as often hitting the 'halt' button as all other orders combined and then ordering troops back into proper position when I should be focusing on various ongoing meleés. Sometimes the halt button greys-out for a unit, even when they are attacking, or chasing routers off the field and I want them to come back!

    Of course unit impetuousness (either inherent in the unit type or affected by the situation or the 'general's reputation' thing) is written into the game and it's a factor which may have scuppered many a real-life general's battle plans...

    I don't know if using 'engage at will' would improve things or make them disengage from a chase any more quickly. There are times when I see a unit 2 seconds' walk away from another which is in trouble and are in a position to flank the attackers with less than a quarter turn and they just sit there and watch. One would like to be able to leave the local commander to decide on the best course of action but they usually have to be told. Grrr

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    The hair proves it... Senior Member EatYerGreens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside
    Been experimenting with using troops without any armour upgrades. It's a semi expensive method though, as your first line will often loose, but the second won't , as the enemy gets exhausted troops for the rest of the battle. No need to care about tired troops.

    Although I think a medium armored first line, withdrawed after the first battle and replaced with light troops, would work best.

    Sounds sensible to me. Rather than a cut and dried 'yes' or 'no' to armour, it's the middle way. A mixture of both gives you more flexibility. One lot able to take a pounding - just remember not to have them pursue or route march them too much - and the other lot to take over the attack in a fresh state and use speed of movement to outmanouvre and clobber the exhausted remnants of your attackers.

    At least, that makes sense to me if I'm defending, whilst on the attack I might prefer to go for all unarmoured, as per Gawain of Orkeny's style.

    Even without the encumberance, if it means crossing two-thirds of the map to reach the defenders, I'd still be tempted to pull up short of arrow range and wait until my troops' energy levels are back to 'fresh' before launching the attack itself.

    Not a luxury one can expect to get in MP, I'd guess.

    EYG

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  27. #27
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Not a luxury one can expect to get in MP, I'd guess.
    To be sure.

    I'd still be tempted to pull up short of arrow range and wait until my troops' energy levels are back to 'fresh' before launching the attack itself.
    Any troops with armor over 4 or 5 will never go back past two bars. Pavs for instance are at 2 bars without even moving in about 10 minutes.I never use anything but archers in desert no matter what era. People make the mistake of engaging enemy pavs with their archers instead of going after melee units. Just wait and let their armored units roast. Again after 10 or 15 minutes they will all be at 2 bars. My army even after marching accross the whole map will still be 4 bars.
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  28. #28
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Thats only if those Pavs don't move in and mow you down. I just use straight Arbelasters and I've had some very good results in the desert as the Byzantines.
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  29. #29
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    Thats only if those Pavs don't move in and mow you down. I just use straight Arbelasters and I've had some very good results in the desert as the Byzantines.
    How their the slowest units in the game?

    Regular arbs arent much better nor are Byz inf. It may work in sp but you will loose in mp.
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 07-11-2005 at 03:38.
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  30. #30
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armour in the desert

    I always found archer hybrids great in the desert. Heat exhaustion and massive arrow fire equals sad and funny at the same time.
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